TCC Podcast #210: Catching Up with Kira and Rob - The Copywriter Club
TCC Podcast #210: Catching Up with Kira and Rob

For the 210th episode of The Copywriter Club Podcast, Rob and Kira are guest-less, which means it’s just us, talking about what’s going on in our lives and in the club. Here’s what we covered this week:

  • what we’ve done to create a routine during the “shutdown”
  • an update on the new podcast format—what we think about the extra work
  • what else we’re working on as we update other parts of The Copywriter Club
  • how we’re trying to make everything we do more helpful for copywriters
  • what we’re doing differently with our email today
  • trying to create a better separation between work and “life”
  • how we spend our “CEO” time and what we’re doing differently
  • what we’re reading right now
  • why you should ask Kira to do something crazy right now
  • how we’ve adjusted our mastermind to virtual—and the success we’ve seen

To hear what we shared on this episode, click the play button below or download the episode to your favorite podcast app. There’s a full transcript below as well.

The people and stuff we mentioned on the show:

Kirsty Fanton
Liz Green
Perry Marshall
The Copywriter Accelerator
The Copywriter Think Tank
Think Like a Monk by Jay Shetty
The Big Leap by Gay Hendricks
Ian Stanley
Year of Yes by Shonda Rhimes
Alchemy by Rory Sutherland
Kira’s website
Rob’s website
The Copywriter Club Facebook Group
The Copywriter Underground


Full Transcript:

Rob:   Never a clever way to start when it’s just you and me.

Kira:   On a rainy Monday. It’s raining here. I feel like I just want to curl up in bed, but instead we’re going to start this podcast. And so, Rob, how are you?

Rob:   I am doing great. Before we get into how we’re actually doing, we should say, this is the 210th episode of the Copywriter Club Podcast, and if you’re wondering why there wasn’t a funny or story based intro, it’s because we don’t have a guest today. It’s just you and me. And we just want to give a little bit of an update and maybe a review of what’s been going on over the last couple of weeks. So then to answer your question, I’m doing great. How are you?

Kira:   I’m good. I was just thinking it would be fun to do our new commentary that we’ve added to the last 10 episodes. If you all haven’t noticed and add that to this episode, so we can add commentary on top of our commentary and just go really meta with it.

Rob:   It could get a little meta. It also might get annoying. This is where we break in to say that was actually totally wrong, what you just said, Rob.

Kira:   But we’re jumping in here. It’s been a while, I think, since we’ve really shared what we’ve been up to in our worlds and in the Copywriter Club and our copywriting businesses. So when you reflect back over the last few months, Rob, how are you dealing with world craziness, recession, all this stuff, COVID? How is your family doing? How are you doing?

Rob:   At this point end of summer, middle of the fall, we’re doing pretty good. I think we’ve figured out a routine. I was one of the lucky ones who, very early on, got the virus and I spent a whole week being kind of sick and very tired.

Kira:   I forgot about that.

Rob:   In fact, I was watching a video that we recorded back in April and I saw myself. I was like, oh my gosh, I look half dead. I look horrible. But yeah, we’ve gone through the school cancellations and summer, and then my kids are actually back in school at school. At least they’ve had one short break because the number of infections rose to whatever the level is that it hits and then they cancel school for a week or so. They’ve actually gone back now the second time and things are pretty good.

Rob:   We do better with routine at my house, especially when it goes around school. My kids are older. I have teenagers. And so there’s not a lot of supervision that needs to happen other than just sort of getting kids out of bed, which is a teenage challenge. I was that way, I think, when I was a kid and my kids are definitely that way, but yeah, I think we’ve adjusted our family life and are doing okay. How about you? You’ve got littler kids, so I’m guessing maybe some slightly different challenges.

Kira:   Yeah, I think the spring was rough for so many people. And so I agree having, I mean, structure and schedules help with kids at all ages, and adults. And so not having that in the spring just was quite difficult. But starting this school year, knowing what was ahead for us with online learning in DC public schools, so we were able to plan ahead and just figure it out and figure out what it was going to look like. And so it’s been going well for us with online learning. The first week was awful because we didn’t have any help or support, so I have experienced how hard it is when you don’t have support. And it’s impossible. I don’t know how parents are supposed to work and do online learning. It’s just really difficult.

Kira:   But we’ve been lucky enough to have some help with a bunch of other kids who come to our house every day. So we have a school in our downstairs with four kids total, and then we have more of a facilitator who comes in. I don’t want to call her a babysitter because she does so much more than that. She’s really helping the kids with online learning so that they make it to their classes on time from 8:30 until 3:15.

It’s been going really well since we have that support and we have other kids around, because the socialization really helps with them. And it’s allowed me to finally work those hours without having to check on the kids and worry and feel stressed out the entire time. So that’s been huge for running a business and having that space now in the fall, and has been such a game changer as far as my sanity levels. Just having kids who are happy now because it’s working and they’re learning and they’re doing pretty well given that it’s online learning. So I think it’s as good as it could be right now in the current situation.

Rob:   I think as we think about everybody who listens to this podcast, we know that there are a lot of people that are in different situations. Some people have great support systems, some people are lacking that. Some people have the school systems are open and others are trying to do homeschool. And I just, I think, as people have tried to figure out the way to move forward with their own situation, with their own family, it’s just nice to know that there’s a group of people here that are all sort of suffering through the different things together and we support you. We know that you’re fully capable of doing it and we’re cheering you on.

Kira:   Yeah, definitely. It’s not easy. All right, so other than that, we updated the podcast recently. Has it surprised you, as far as feedback on the podcast changes that we’ve made so far, or has it been what you expected?

Rob:   I think it’s probably been what I expected. We’ve heard from several people telling us that they really like the new format. Kirsty Fanton just emailed us this morning saying that she likes it. We’ve heard from others. I think it was Liz Greene, might be remembering this wrong, who said that it was the update she didn’t realize that she needed.

I was expecting that it would be better just because it gives us a little bit more opportunity to talk and to share some of the things that we know and do. But I’ve been gratified to hear that from people who have listened and just think that now that we’re in this 10 episodes, maybe we’re committing for a little while longer. I think when we announced the change and said, hey, we’ll try it for 10 episodes and if it’s not working, then we’ll call an end to it. But I think it has been working. I do think my one concern was that it has made the podcast quite a bit longer, maybe 20 minutes longer per episode, which so far, nobody has said that that’s too long, but definitely want to keep an eye on that, because we don’t want to bore anybody and hopefully what we’ve done has improved the podcast. What do you think? Have you heard anything different

Kira:   I heard people hate it.

Rob:   Oh, no.

Kira:   No, I haven’t really heard much. I’ve heard a couple of positive comments. I wasn’t sure how it was going to go with the first few episodes because you and I scripted it a little bit more, we scripted our commentary, and we were just getting into our groove with it. And so I think as we figure it out episode by episode, we get a little bit more clear on how we can add more value, add a little bit more of us, but also more value, so we’re not just talking for the sake of talking and adding 20 extra minutes to every episode. So I think it will continue to get better and I’m just being patient with the process. But I do think it does satisfy that need that you and I had, where we felt like we were missing from the episodes for 200 episodes.

It was great, and I’ve loved interviewing people, but I just felt like it wasn’t really a dialogue. It was purely interviewing and putting spotlights on other copywriters, which is a wonderful thing. But I do think that we cut ourselves out of those conversations and we had more we wanted to say, so this new renovation has allowed us to share more of what we have learned and seen and observed from our own businesses and from other copywriters. And so it feels more satisfying to me now. I’m more excited about it. And I think it’s just a good reminder that we’re all in charge of our own business and we can make these changes, and even if something is you’ve been doing it for 200 episodes or more, you can always look at it and figure out how you can change it to make it meet your new needs and excite you more and become more fun. Because if it’s not really that fun, I do think it’s important to start questioning it, which we did.

Rob:   It has added a lot more time to actually producing the podcast. You know, I think it adds close to an extra hour for our editor. It adds maybe two hours each for us in going back through and sort of outlining the things that we want to comment on. So it’s definitely added to the labor of love, but like you said, I think it’s improved and it’s better.

I’d love to hear from listeners what they think. You can leave a review on Apple Podcasts or on Stitcher. We’re now on Spotify. I think we’re on the Google Podcast player.

Kira:   We’re on Spotify?

Rob:   Yup. I think we’re even on Amazon. Amazon is launching a podcast app or a podcast platform, and I think we’ve been picked up there too. So I think we are everywhere where you can listen to podcasts. And so if you like the Copywriter Club podcast, we’d love to know about that and know what you like about it. So leave us a review and that also helps other people find us too.

But yeah, it’s all kind of part of some of the rethinking that we’ve been doing with our entire business. W we’ve called it putting on our CEO hat, we’re taking CEO time to really think about what we’re doing differently and it’s something that we talk about in a lot of our programs, it’s something we encourage our think tank members to do, our round table members to do, the accelerator members to do. And it’s something that we’ve taken seriously in our own businesses as we started to think, okay, what do we need to improve? What do we need to do differently?

Kira:   What does that look like for us right now? What are we working on Rob?

Rob:   Well, obviously the podcast, so that change is mostly underway and maybe we could even call it complete, but we have some pretty cool things planned for The Underground, a renovation and reorganization of the information that’s there. There’s, I think, now like over 70 different trainings in The Underground, and it can be just a little daunting to see all of that and to try to figure out, where do I start? There’s more than 20 templates, there’s 20 plus newsletters full of information, there’s challenges in there. All kinds of resources. So we’re basically taking a step back from that and doing some reorganization. You’re actually leading that project. And we have some really cool ideas for what we’re going to do, moving forward.

Kira:   Which is ironic that I’m leading that project because I am the worst organizer in the world. Like one of them, really, I just, my brain does not work in that way, but here I am leading the organization of The Underground. But we have some help and we will figure it out, I’m sure. I feel confident that we’ll figure it out.

Rob:   The beauty of having you be in charge of that though, is that it may actually be kind of a creative reorganization, right?

Kira:   It is, yeah.

Rob:   It’s not necessarily going to be the standard that you’re going to see everywhere else. And maybe that fits the Copywriter Club a little bit better than what you might find in other places.

Kira:   That’s true. Thanks for that, Rob. So yeah, it feels to me like we wrapped up phase one of our business and I do like looking at the phases of a business, and I think you could say the building creation/building phase was phase one for us over the last, what, four years now. And there were multiple stages in that time period, but it does feel like we’re building, building, building out this extension model, which we’ve talked about and creating all these different offers at different levels in our extension model. And it kind of feels like we’re at this phase two point now where we don’t have to keep building, we’ve built a lot, and we just need to start strengthening and renovating, like you said, like looking at The Underground, well what’s working, what’s not working, how can we make it better?

Improving not only the programs that we have, but also the systems that we have to run the team and what you and I are doing, and just asking harder questions about, should we be doing that? Is that something that you should be doing and spending your time on, or something that I should be spending my time on, and also building a team now in this phase. So it’s kind of like a less maybe sexy phase of our business, but equally, or more, important than the phase that we’ve just traveled through.

Rob:   Yeah, I agree. I think trying to make sure that what we’ve created is not just providing the information for people in the Copywriter Club, but that we’re also providing it in a way that really makes it easy for everyone to consume and to use and to make themselves more effective. And that’s really the next step, is how do we take everything that we’ve got right now and just make it so easy for people to use in their own businesses so that we’re all growing together.

Kira:   Yes, yes, and a lot of it has been moving away from a launch model for us, getting away from this launch cycle that never ends and is quite draining, and moving into more evergreen through all of our programs to have evergreen programs. Well, mostly all of them. So that it’s just a little bit easier on us too.

I think a lot of what we’re looking at is just how can we make everything we’re doing a little bit less intense because we also want to focus on living good lives and doing other things outside of business too. And so I think it’s a good stage to be in, even though there’s another itch inside of me to like start building more, creating more.

I think it’s hard sometimes for business owners or maybe even people who are wearing an entrepreneurial hat to take it off and just say, no, no, no, we need to focus on doing this right before we start creating again. And so at least it’s been a little bit tricky for me to sit in this stage, which doesn’t feel as comfortable for me or like it’s my strength either.

Rob:   Yeah, I agree with that. Fortunately, we’ve got a really cool team that we’ve started to assemble over the past year. Rosie who has helped us with so many things in the background. And Theresa who lives in Canada has been helping us organize our systems. Brandon, who’s been helping with the Facebook groups and with some of our social media. And Feena, who jumps between the UK and Sweden and editing the podcast.

We’re just really grateful that we’ve got all of these folks there to help us and to do some of the stuff in the background so that we can take the time to actually, hopefully, make everything better, from the programs that we offer, to the podcast, to the experience that people have in the Facebook group, all the way around really trying to take the Copywriter Club to another level.

Kira:   We’ve talked a little bit about those changes that we’ve made and acting more like a CEO. What else have you done Rob, or have you seen us do, to act and think more like a CEO in our businesses?

Rob:   I think there are maybe a couple of other things that we’re doing too that we’re trying to commit to. One is that we are starting to take our email marketing and communications a little more seriously. People who are on our list will have noticed our weekly email that goes out on Saturdays, we’ve been calling the Copywriter’s Inbox, that we’re sharing inspiration and ideas and tools and tricks and tips and tactics that people can try out and use in their own businesses. And some of that is actually personal, just fun stuff, things that we’ve liked.

We’re also going to be sharing more copywriting tips and business tips on a more regular basis, and to do that through email. And now that I’ve said it out loud on the podcast, we’ve actually got a got to deliver. So we get to hold ourselves to that.

Kira:   Well, I did not say it.

Rob:   You didn’t disagree though, so yeah, you’re on the hook too.

Kira:   Yeah. All right. And then beyond that I was just thinking about some things or action steps we’ve taken to step more into this CEO role that could be useful to others as well. And so for me, it’s looked more like little things, like managing my accessibility and screen time and social media time too, let’s put that all together as far as like having all of these doors open to all these different worlds that exist online, and starting to be more intentional about opening those doors and letting people in and reaching out to people, and then also shutting those doors to those different social media portals that can oftentimes just feel like they’re always open.

For me, it’s been kind of, not like reclaiming my time, but just taking more control over my attention and where I’m giving my attention, so that I have just more time off the screen and more time disconnected, and so there’s a clear separation between work time and playtime, lifetime, like living life, and that’s something I’ve always struggled with. And so it seems quite obvious, and probably many people have figured that out already, but that’s something that I’m really focused on in 2020, and then will continue to focus on in 2021, because it takes me a while to figure that out.

Rob:   One of the things that I have gotten a lot more serious about doing this year, it’s something that I’ve talked about and kind of dabbled with in the past, but that is taking a specific, what Perry Marshall calls Renaissance time, what we’ve called maybe CEO time, other people have called it creative time, or have some other name for it, but that’s taking time every single day to just sit down and maybe meditate a little, maybe journal a little bit, really think about what I need to be doing differently with my business in order to get us to the level that we want to get to.

Sometimes that involves reading things about marketing or things about business that are going to help me do something differently or do something better. Sometimes it’s asking the question, if I really want to hit this revenue level, what do I need to do differently in my business? Or if I really want to be able to do this other thing in my personal life, what do I need to do differently in my business in order to make that possible? And so really taking time, if not every day, at least every week, to really think about those questions.

We’ve talked about some of them in more recent podcast episodes with like Jereshia Hawk and Jordan Gill, really taking that inventory of us as business leaders and getting serious about executing on that on a regular basis. So that’s one of the changes that I’ve made in my business. I think that’s something that you’re doing more of as well.

Kira:   Yeah. I was just going to ask you, so when you’re sitting down and you’re thinking through that, and you’re asking that question, what do I need to do to hit this revenue goal or hit this personal goal, what comes out of that thought process or that thinking time for you? Are there any specifics that you’ve implemented or that you’re working on?

Rob:   Well, so the truth is oftentimes nothing comes out of it. I think that’s actually okay, because it’s the kind of thing you really need to… It’s not a 10 minute answer, right. Or even a one day answer. And so as I’m thinking about it, I’m thinking, okay, what kind of programs do we have? So I might make a list of the training ideas that I might have, or I might think about different promotions that we could be doing, ideas for ads for different things, and I might make a list there.

But it’s more than that, because oftentimes as I go back to those lists and the things that I write down, I’m also thinking through, okay, but does this make the business more complex? Does it simplify it in some way? If I’m making it more complex, is it actually going to deliver what we need or is it going to create more things to do? So, it’s kind of this process, and sometimes I’ll come to the end of it and I haven’t added anything or I haven’t really changed anything, but I’m still taking the time just to kind of ponder on it, because again, it takes time to really figure this stuff out, and this is true not just of the business that we have together, but in the businesses that we run separately, because both of us still write copy, maybe not quite as often as we used to, but still write copy for other clients and I want to improve that business too.

Kira:   Yeah, no, and that’s a good point. I think just having that dedicated time to think through these big questions is the most important part, because you never know when you’ll have that really specific idea you can implement or whether you can just kind of still just brainstorm and get closer to it. But yeah, that’s, I mean, for me, when I sit down, I am often thinking about what I’m enjoying in business and what’s going well, and then I also, more importantly, like to think about what’s not going well, where a lot of the pain is coming from. I’m somebody who needs a lot of pain in order to make changes, and so I start to identify, okay, what’s on my list that is just really painful or repetitive or could be handed off? And so, focusing more on asking for help now that we have a team.

I think it, at least from my perspective, it took us a while to start asking our team for help. Even though we’ve had a team for a while, I think only recently you and I have really started to kind of hand off more projects and unload and share with other team members who are excited to take on more. So that’s been a huge shift.

And I agree with you. A lot of it’s just thinking about my own copywriting business too, where I’m still working with clients and thinking about how that has changed over the last few years and how what I’m offering there is shifting, and so creating new offers that fit where I am today and what I enjoy today, which is different than it was four or five years ago. And so continuing to focus on that business too, to make sure that it’s still working and I’m still excited about it, even if it’s not quite as big or busy as it was a couple of years ago, it’s still operational, and so what gets me really excited in that business too.

A lot of what I work through is actually in the Accelerator Program. I actually just revisit the content that we teach and share in the Accelerator Program and I work through it when I need that extra help or clarity.

Rob:   Yeah. And speaking of the Accelerator Program, I might use this as a segue, but we just started the last cohort of the Accelerator for 2020. The next one won’t be until the spring time. But we are also looking at that content and trying to think through, okay, how can we make this even better? And that when people join the Accelerator, they get the content forever, and so if we make improvements people can enjoy those improvements too.

But we just want to be really serious that what we’re doing and what we’re sharing and teaching is what’s working today. And as things change, as the environment changes, as things like the recession hit that make sure that we’re sharing information that really helps people navigate the changing situation.

While marketing principles and human behavior remains the same, that doesn’t change much over time, the specifics of how we apply it to a market that is shifting can change. And so again, going through and rethinking stuff like the Accelerator, what we’re doing in the Think Tank, what we’re doing in our other programs, is all part of putting on that CEO hat and rethinking our business.

If somebody’s listening to this, they can kind of take a lesson from that and say, okay, what do I need to do differently in my business? With the products that I’m offering, with the kinds of clients that I’m working with. Should I be raising my prices? Should I be offering something different that matches the moment maybe a little bit better than what I was offering last year? Or looking forward, is what I’m doing today what I want to be doing this time next year, or should I start putting some of those changes into practice? All of that, I think, rolls under those changes that we would call CEO time.

Kira:   Okay. All right, so anything else for CEO time that you’ve focused on?

Rob:   I just think it’s always a really good idea is to sit down, read, ponder, and think, whether that’s about your business, your personal life, or whatever, it’s never going to hurt.

Kira:   Okay, cool. So what are you reading right now, Rob?

Rob:   A couple of things, I actually just finished a novel it’s The Sum of All Things. Who’s that by? Tom Clancy. I just finished listening to that yesterday. I was listening to Jay Shetty’s Think Like a Monk, that was on my workout this morning. It’s kind of interesting. It’s maybe a little bit not what I was expecting, which is probably good, a little different from the kinds of books that I usually listen to.

I also recently listened to The Big Leap, which Ian Stanley recommended when we interviewed him, and I really like a lot of the ideas that are taught in that book about the upper limit and how so many of us have an upper limit problem and we get really comfortable with where we are and afraid to grow. And I listened to it working out last week and it’s one of those I’m going to listen to again, maybe at the end of this week, because I want to sort of internalize some of the ideas that he shared there. So that’s The Big Leap by Gay Hendricks. Those are maybe the most recent reads that I’ve had. How about you, what have you been reading?

Kira:   I’m currently reading The Year of Yes, by Shonda Rhimes. It’s been really… I’d heard about the book several times and I was always interested because I love Shonda and it’s like dream job is writing television shows and writing fiction and creating, turning your imagination into a script that turns into a show. It’s amazing that she does that and I want to do that. And so part of it is just I love hearing about her life and her work. And then I love her voice. Her writing voice is just so strong. She’s such a great writer. So even to just read her book, it just, writer to writer, I feel like you can geek out with her and just really diving into her voice.

Also she’s an introvert. She owns it. She owns being an awkward introvert writer. And so I just feel like I can relate to her. And so it’s so fun to read that book and read about her awkward moments that she’s had. I guess I knew some of them, but I didn’t realize how much of an introvert she is and how she created this book really to step out of her comfort zone. That even though she’s was so successful when she wrote the book in 2013 or 2014, she was no to just about every opportunity that came her way and all the fun opportunities from Hollywood and all these exciting opportunities. She said no to all of them. And until she started this year of yes, and started to say yes. And so it’s just such a fun read and then such a great concept and philosophy on living life. And so it’s been really fun to read.

I also have just toyed with the idea of like, what would that look like for me? And I think I postponed reading the book because I lied or tricked myself into thinking I don’t need that. I already say yes. I already step out of my comfort zone all the time. But I actually don’t think I do. And I think I’m out of practice, especially being home during the last, however many months during COVID, it’s just really easy at this point to get into your comfort zone. I mean, we’re not leaving our house frequently, so it’s just so easy to just take things that you’re comfortable with.

I think now more than ever, I would like to lean into her year of yes and create a similar challenge for myself to really step out of my comfort zone as we move into this new year in 2021 too, and figuring out what that looks like for me, because it’s not saying yes to everything. If people just want your time, it’s not saying yes to that. It’s saying yes to what terrifies you and scares you and pulls you out of your comfort zone, but you know you want to do it deep down.

Rob:   It’s the Jim Carrey movie, Yes Man, right? Where you have to say yes to everything.

Terence Stamp’s Voice:   You say no to life, and therefore you’re not living. Every time an opportunity presents itself, you will say yes.

Rob:   Knowing that Kira is reading this, then people should be emailing you with all kinds of crazy challenges and ideas for you to try out, so that you’ll say yes to them.

Kira:   If it’s a true opportunity, then yeah, I will say yes to it. But if it’s just like, hey, can you do me a favor, it’s not… I’m going to have to create some rules here where it’s not doing someone a favor or giving them something, but it’s yes to opportunities that scare me.

Rob:   I’m coming to Virginia to jump out of an airplane. Will you join me? That kind of…

Kira:   That kind of a thing, yeah. That kind of thing.

Rob:   Awesome. Cool. There’s another book that I picked up recently too, I haven’t finished it, but it’s called Alchemy, it’s by Rory Sutherland. We recommended it in an email that we sent out to our list. It is a fantastic book all about how when we think in processes and with logic, we remove the magic from what we do and how, especially in advertising and marketing, so much depends on the magic element and on the creative element that’s so hard to define logically, that when we take that out what we do actually becomes less effective. It’s a really interesting read from a psychology standpoint.

Rory is really interesting guy. He’s a fantastic writer. And this has some really interesting takes on the way things work. And so that’s another one that I’ve been slowly working my way through it. I can’t sit and read it all at once because there’s so much to think about in that book, but it’s really a fantastic book and one that I would highly recommend to anybody.

Kira:   I want to get that one. That sounds good. So as we’re wrapping up the year now, finishing 2020, thank goodness, 2020 is almost over, what are we focused on now? We’ve already mentioned The Underground, just renovating The Underground kind of behind the scenes that’s happening. What else are we focused on?

Rob:   One of the things that we are going to be doing before the end of the year is adding a couple more members to our Think Tank group. That is our mastermind that is helping copywriters move or who are sort of at that six-figure level or just under the six figure level and really trying to develop new ideas or things that they want to do in their business. And so we’re going to be adding a few more members. Maybe you should talk a little bit more about what we do in the Think Tank and some of the successes that we’ve been seeing with our members who are there already.

Kira:   Yeah, well, I think one of the pivots we made back in March, when everything shifted for us, was moving away from the in-person retreat model, which we had used and kind of had a great time running last year in our Think Tank, it was all about the in-person retreats, having three a year, going to Barcelona. We went to Barcelona last October. It was amazing. And so as soon as COVID hit in March and we realized that’s not happening, we did have to shift the model for the mastermind so that it wasn’t as dependent on that in-person time, which was so helpful in the past, and that it could be a mastermind group that helped the members achieve even more virtually. And so we have shifted and really focused on giving all of our think tank members more support than we’ve ever provided in that group, so it’s more accountability, lot more accountability, and more time with us and also more time with each other.

We’ve added even like a weekly priority session where you could just jump in every Tuesday with us and figure out what you should focus on for the week, because we found that’s the biggest struggle for many of us, is there’s so many things we have to do and so what is the most important priority for you every single week?

Even adding simple events like that, has given us more connection and our members more access to us and to each other. And then beyond that, it’s not just monthly hot seats, which we do offer, but it’s also more accountability. So actually just becoming better coaches in the Think Tank and not just ending calls with our members like, hey, see you later, it’s more about what are you going to do next? And what’s happening? What’s the deadline for this? What are you committed to? And making really specific commitments and then holding all the members to that and then allowing them to hold each other to those commitments too. And so that feels like it’s made the biggest difference, at least from my perspective. What do you think, Rob?

Rob:   Yeah, I agree. You mentioned that we had to shift away from the in-person retreats because of the virus, and we didn’t end up going back to Barcelona this year, which is a little disappointing because that was so much fun last year. But we’ve really done some different things with our virtual retreats as well and I think have made… I was a little bit reluctant to shift to virtual, because when you’re on Zoom, you’re not in-person. You feel like you lose something. But I think after both of the retreats that we’ve had this year, one for our round table members and one for our Think Tank people, remark that they were amazed at how well they were able to get information out of the speakers, the presenters, but also how they were able to connect with each other through a virtual retreat.

So while we’re not meeting in person, we have been able to bring people together and have some amazing presenters. And we’re working on the next virtual retreat, which is middle of November, and we’ve got some great speakers lined up already that we’re pretty excited about sharing with our Think Tank members.

Kira:   We are, like you said, we’re adding and inviting a couple new members to join this incredible group that we already have. And we’re trying to find the right people who can join this group and are excited to commit to taking action as we wrap up the year and move into 2021 too.

But yeah, I just can’t say enough about the members that are in this group, because even though it’s been such a hard year, they’re just doing big things and taking those chances and almost having the Shonda Rhimes attitude of saying yes and doing a lot of uncomfortable things that they wouldn’t normally do to grow as business owners and as people. So it’s been really fun just to spend time with them and spend a lot more time with them this year.

Rob:   It’s a really good group that I’m excited to spend more time with as we move into the next year.

Kira:   So if you have any interest in exploring the Think Tank mastermind and joining this incredible group of copywriters and marketers, you can just send us an email and we’ll set up a conversation to connect with you and find out if it’s a good fit for you, with zero pressure, but you can email and just send a note that mentions that you’re interested in Think Tank.

Rob:   Yeah. And then as we think about what we are doing moving forward with the podcast, with the Copywriter Club, if you, as a listener, have ideas for people you would like us to talk to or topics that you’d like us to address, you can also email us at that email address and just let us know your thoughts too. We would really like to hear from you about how we’re doing and how we can help you. So just let us know.

Kira:   Yes, exactly. And if that includes featuring you and something that you’re learning or you’re teaching and digging into, definitely step up and share. Our goal as we move into 2021 is to feature as many copywriters from around the world who have something to share, to teach, to say, and to share as many copywriter voices as possible. And so reach out and let us know what you want to share or teach.

Rob:   That’s the end of another podcast. Our intro music was composed by copywriter and songwriter Addison Rice. The outro is composed by copywriter and songwriter David Munter. You can learn more about the programs that we share, like the Copywriter Underground or the Copywriter Think Tank, by visiting or by emailing either Kira or me,

If you haven’t done it already, would you mind jumping into Apple Podcasts or Spotify or wherever you get your podcasts, and leave a review of the show? We’d love to hear what you think about the changes we’ve made over the last few episodes and if we can do things better. So please jump in there and let us know. Thanks for listening. We will see you next week.



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