TCC Podcast #130: Our Takeaways from TCCIRL with Kira Hug and Rob Marsh - The Copywriter Club
TCC Podcast #130: Our Takeaways from TCCIRL with Kira Hug and Rob Marsh

We’ve flipped the microphones again and invited copywriter Kirsty Fanton back into the studio to interview us for the 130th episode of The Copywriter Club Podcast. This is the episode where we answer important questions like… What’s a furfie? What’s a ripsnorter? And has Rob ever cried in a movie? And what disgusting work habits does Kira have? Plus we talk about what the Copywriter Think Tank is like—it’s only open for new members once a year and we’re taking applications right now. Here are a few of the topics we covered:
•  our favorite moments from TCCIRL and why this year was even better than last
•  the speakers who stood out—the people you definitely want to watch when the videos are ready
•  a short description of the “lost” panel discussion
•  the new round of The Copywriter Think Tank
•  the importance of balancing financial success with a personal life
•  Kira’s favorite post from her blog about being tall in New York
•  Rob reveals that he has cried in a movie and that he can’t even remember the right breed of dog in the movie
•  the thing that Rob did that still bothers Kira
•  what Rob and Kira’s childhood hobbies were

We think this one is kind of fun. Make sure you stick around for the “lightning round” at the end to really get to know your hosts. It’s easy to listen, just click the play button below, or download the episode to your favorite podcast app. Readers can scroll down for a full transcript.


The people and stuff we mentioned on the show:

The Copywriter Think Tank
The Copywriter Accelerator
The Copywriter Club In Real Life Event
Kira’s website
Rob’s website
The Copywriter Club Facebook Group
The Copywriter Underground
Intro: Content (for now)
Outro: Gravity


Full Transcript:

Kirsty:            What if you could have a yarn with ridgy-didge copywriters and other experts, ask them about their ripsnorters and furphies, their work processes and habit-a-roos, then pitch an idea or two to inspire your own hard yakka. That’s what Rob and Kira do every week at The Copywriter Club Podcast. And if you haven’t already guessed, today’s episode is coming to you from the land down under, where we drive on the left, celebrate Christmas in the sweaty peak of summer, and wear thongs on our feet.

Given everything is upside down and inside out over here, it’s only fair that I’m flipping the tables, and getting Robira to spill the beans on all things TCC. We’ll get the down low on last months In Real Life event, a sneak peak at the new and improved Copywriter Think Tank, and the inside scoop on Rob’s most woo woo moment, and Kira’s grossest working from home habit.

Hey guys.

Kira:   That was the best intro ever.

Rob:   I might have to leave. I’m a little weirded out right now. That was English, right? You were speaking English?

Kirsty:            I was speaking English, Rob.

Kira:   Yeah, but what is a furphie?

Kirsty:            A furphie’s like an error or a mistake.

Kira:   Wow. Okay. Definitely using that one.

Rob:   Nice.

Kirsty:            It’s a good word. You can drop it in when you’re over here next month, Rob. You’ll sound like a local.

Rob:   Yeah. I can’t wait. I’m going to like just memorize this, ripsnorters and furphies. Got it. Ready to go.

Kirsty:            You’ll fit right in. Well, guys, it’s so nice to be chatting with you again so soon. I feel like I’m getting maximum in Robira time this month because I was over with you guys in Brooklyn like what, two weeks ago? For the final-

Kira:   Yeah.

Kirsty:            … Think Tank workshop and also for of course TCC IRL version 2.0. So, how are you both after what I imagine has been a huge month at your end?

Kira:   How are you, Rob?

Rob:   I am great. I am-

Kira:   You’re always great.

Rob:   … we’ve had some time to rest and start picking up the pieces. It felt like it was a success. You’re right though, it was a hard work. It was tiring. Like I immediately went home Sunday afternoon, had dinner with my family, fell asleep at four o’clock in the afternoon and I didn’t wake up until like 5:30 the next morning.

Kira:   Whoa.

Rob:   So like, it was tiring, but I feel good now after a couple weeks. It’s been good. Kira’s been going ever since. Like she didn’t even stop.

Kira:   I won’t slow down.

Rob:   Because then she took time off … And yeah. So, she’s tired I think.

Kira:   Yeah. I really am. Now I’m sick, too, so. No, I mean, it was exciting and I just jumped straight into my birthday, so took some time off for my birthday and realized that going out and celebrating with the girlfriends for my birthday was going to be exhausting, so probably not the best follow-up to the event. But it was fun nonetheless. And then, we went to DC to look for a new home. So, yeah. It’s been on the go with some big life changes the last few weeks. I have not slowed down to rest yet. I do need to do that, my body is starting to feel all the weight from the last few weeks. So, I do need to slow down. I think my body is kindly trying to tell me that right now, so I need to just listen.

Kirsty:            Yes. That sounds like a good plan. You are a machine for having powered through all of that. I mean, so it sounds like obviously the event left you guys maybe a little bit worse for wear in the immediate days after, but how was it when you were actually there? Like what were some of the things that you really got out of it, what was some of your favorite moments, your favorite presentations?

Kira:   Yeah. So for me, I think the follow-up event is always tricky because the first one was so wonderful, and Kirsty, you were there, you kind of felt the magic of the first time you’re meeting everyone in real life. So, I was a little bit nervous going into the second one, but to me, it felt just as exciting and connecting with everyone you kind of felt that same excitement just as much, if not more, because it was a little bit bigger, so more people there. And just really, really exciting, and I feel like it was just the perfect continuation.

Also, just spending more time with people, and even in kind of knowing them more a year later, and getting to connect with them in person was great. I’d say my favorite moments were kind of the intimate moments. Like the dinner adventures. It was just really special. It was seven of us at a restaurant in Williamsburg, Brooklyn, just getting to know each other and kind of having some awkward moments and then drinking some wine and then just relaxing and getting to know each other and having some really great conversations and planning each other’s futures.

But I really enjoyed those moments probably even more than the large moments where we were all at the cocktail party. So, that stood out to me.

Rob:   That was a good answer. I’m not sure I can add much to that. Like it was just … it was a great event. The speakers were great, the people that were there was great, it was just so much fun. And so rewarding in a lot of ways.

Kirsty:            Yeah. And again, as you said, I was there and I was also there last year. And you guys just killed it again. I was a bit unsure how you would top version one from 2018, but I mean, I think you guys did. There were so many more people there, the speeches and the presentations were all so valuable, and I think there were maybe even slightly more opportunities this time around to actually hang out in smaller groups and just get to know people a bit better, which as you guys both said, is highly valuable.

One thing I like that you just said Kira, is that you got to see everyone a year later. Sort of a year down the track from the first event. How is that for both of you guys, to sort of see how people are changing and evolving in their businesses?

Kira:   Yeah, it feels … kind of more like a long-term relationship rather than just a one night fling. This feels like this is something real and I think there’s a big investment on the part of everyone who travels to our event. And especially when people travel twice, two years in a row, I just … I think that level of commitment kind of speaks to the energy and then the relationships that are formed, the conversations that you have, because the people that show up are really committed to creating a career.

And so, the conversations you have are a little bit deeper, and I don’t know, it just makes you feel like, ‘Hey, these are people I can surround myself with for a while. Like we’re all in it together and can support each other.’ And so, it just … I don’t know. It felt like the relationships are more solid this year, compared to last year, where it was just really exciting and fun to get together for the first time. So, it just feels like there’s a deeper level of commitment on the part of everyone, not just us.

Rob:   And I think when you talk about that level of commitment, too. We take that really seriously. And when we know that somebody’s flying in from India, or Australia, or Denmark, or the UK, we understand the investment they’re making in being there, and so we want to make sure that what they get when they get there is worth the investment. And we … that’s why we get the speakers that we get, that’s why we focus so much on … I mean, we really probably do too much content and too many things, but we just want to make sure that everybody who walks away, walks away thinking absolutely that was the best money I’ve spent investing in my business this year.

Kirsty:            And speaking about ROI, or looking at it like that, what for you guys, which presentations gave the biggest ROI or gave the biggest like ‘ah-ha’ moments?

Kira:   Yeah. I mean, it was tricky for me because I was in and out a lot throughout the presentations, so I didn’t get to hear all of them, but I really did enjoy Joel’s conversation or his presentation on the sales call, because I feel like it’s something that it doesn’t matter if you’re a newbie, or you’ve been at it for ten years, we can all improve our sales call and the positioning, and continue to charge more, but to really communicate clearly what we do, it’s hard. And so, I took a lot away.

Kira:   I was also in the room for that presentation so I caught all of it, but just little tips and tricks he gave us, ways of thinking about it, and even just something as simple as prepare and pull some articles that are relevant to that client ahead of time, pull some tips ahead of time, just … it sounds obvious to just do that type of homework ahead of time, but I think mindset wise for me, sometimes I have the wrong attitude going into the sales call. And it’s kind of more like, ‘Hey, they’re lucky to have some time talking to me. We’ll see if I want to work with them or not,’ which is definitely not a good attitude to have on a sales call, so just hearing the way that Joel talked about it really flipped it in my mind, where I’m like, ‘I really want to wow them and get them in, and here’s some really easy ways to do it.’

Kira:   So, that one’s definitely worth it. Everyone should listen to that presentation.

Rob:   Yeah, for me, I mean I don’t think that there was a bad talk and it would be really easy to list out the A-lister’s that were there and sharing their knowledge, you know, Bond Halbert and Parris Lampropoulos, but I loved hearing from our four Think Tank members that spoke. Emma talking about confidence, and Prerna talking about her REM framework for running a profitable business, and Chanti did this totally cool thing with quizzes and moving people from one side of the room to the other, and Michal who talked about the three changes that she’s made in her business to go from barely scraping by to having very consistent five figure months, and it just … it was really gratifying just to see you guys, the Think Tank members, be up on stage and sharing the amazing differences that you’ve made, or that they’ve made, in their businesses. So, that was just a lot of fun for me.

Kira:   Yeah. And I’d also add that we had … So, we had a panel on the second day, Friday morning at 7:30 a.m., it’s one of those things that we planned, it was a bonus for early bird registrants, and then a couple days before we were like, ‘Why did we plan this at 7:30 a.m.? We’re going to be exhausted.’

Rob:   Not just a couple … Yeah, it was tiring.

Kira:   ‘This was a bad idea. Who planned this?’ But it ended up being really cool. A lot of people showed up. We weren’t sure of people would even show up at 7:30 a.m., and people showed up. We had coffee for them, and we had this really great panel discussion with … And Kirsty, you jumped on the panel last minute, you’re like, ‘Okay, I’ll do it.’ And we talked about pricing, packaging, productivity, and just having questions directly from the attendees was just really helpful.

And I feel like I was surprised that so much great content, and we so many great discussions, that early in the morning and from a panel discussion. I’m not usually a huge fan of panels, but I feel like that worked really well. Unfortunately I don’t think we recorded it, so I guess that was a downside.

Kirsty:            That’s all right. You’ve gotta keep it exclusive.

Kira:   Right. So exclusive you will never hear about it, but it was great.

Rob:   If you want to join the next panel discussion, you gotta be in the room, for sure.

Kirsty:            Gotta get up early. No, I mean, I agree with everything you guys said. Again, the presentations were so fantastic. Joel’s was good as always. I mean, that guy is just so knowledgeable, so like practical with what he shares. And the Think Tank members, as you said, they killed it. Like, I almost felt like a really proud friend sitting in the audience watching them. And how was that for you guys? Were you having like proud like copy-dad moments, Rob, or?

Rob:   Totally. Yeah. Totally. I mean, like I am so … I think that all of the members of the Think Tank were very impressive people, and they would’ve done amazing things in their business even if Kira and I weren’t there to give advice and to do what we did. But it’s so gratifying just to see where they were to where they’ve gone. Yeah, it is, it’s a total dad moment for me.

Kira:   Yeah. I started to tear up through Michal’s presentation, too. It just … when she was talking about her growth in a matter of a year and all the work that she’s done and what she’s done to get there, I just found it really inspiring. And I’ve witnessed it and I’ve been along the journey with her, so I’ve seen those milestones along the way. But it wasn’t until seeing her on the stage, she was such a powerful presenter that I really just grasped what is possible for all of us to accomplish in a year, in two years, and you see it. And you get to hear the stories about what is possible. And so, it just kind of takes away all the excuses that so many of us make, that I make, when you have such an inspiring story and inspiring person on the stage. So, yeah. I did get teary eyed for that one, which surprised me because I don’t get teary eyed unless I’m watching movies.

Kirsty:            Love it. And you guys also launched the next, I guess would you say round? Or the next cohort of the Think Tank at TCC In Real Life. Now, I know it looks a bit different to what has … for the round that’s just finished. Do you want to talk a little bit about that?

Kira:   Yeah. Definitely. Rob, do you want to talk about that?

Rob:   Sure. I’ll talk about it. I just … We got a lot of feedback from those of you who were in. Kirsty, you gave us some feedback as to what went right and what we probably could’ve improved on last year. And so, we took that very seriously. We want to make sure that when people join the Think Tank, which is our Mastermind group, for the full 12 months, that we’re really going to deliver value and help them get the kind of results that we were just talking about, the presenters on stage we were just talking about.

So, we’re really focused in on setting very specific goals to achieve over the coming year, and then almost curating a Think Tank experience for each person who joins. It might be just a little bit different for each person, but is going to give them the tools, the resources, the coaching or feedback that they need in order to accomplish their goals. And so, in addition to all of the other stuff that we do with the Think Tank, that’s probably the biggest change that we’re making.

We’re really going to get very process oriented and very specific about those goals, how do we achieve them, and how can we help people move forward moving in the future. But that’s not everything. There’s a ton of stuff that’s also included as well.

Kira:   Yeah. I mean, in the past it was slightly more loose, right? It was just about getting the right people in the room, connecting a couple times a month with guest speakers, hot seats, which is all good. And of course, connecting in a slack group, and that worked well and we tested the retreat and added a retreat to the last cohort, and what we both realized over the last few months and year is just that we really, personally, get so much more out of hanging out and learning with our fellow colleagues in person.

And that was even the response we got from other Think Tank members after we all met in San Diego in September. It was just … I think we were all amazed by the power of getting in a room together for a couple of days and what can come out of that concentrated time together. So, since stepping away from that retreat in San Diego, we decided that we wanted to do more of that in the Think Tank, and we wanted to structure it so that meeting in person was definitely a component of it. And that it was … we were yes, connected online in between those retreats, but we had more time to really connect in person, which is something that the two of us really value.

So, this structure for Think Tank season three is really more like part Mastermind, part coaching program, part system. And so, the coaching part is new as well. In the past we definitely have jumped on calls with Think Tank members, but what we realized, too, from the feedback is that more of that really is needed. And like Rob said, more customized, personalized support is needed, accountability, just giving advice, and bouncing around ideas with the two of us or either one of us is just really helpful. So, that’s why we’ve restructured the entire Think Tank so that the coaching part is a really critical piece of it. And so, members who have access can jump on calls with both of us each month, or either one of us each month.

And then the system component is because it is more structured this time, we’re going to have … we can speak to the different focuses and deep dives each month in what we’re really focused on as a group, but we want to make sure that there is some … there’s a path. So, if we’re sitting down with Think Tank members the first month and figuring out their goals for the year, we want to make sure that we can really track what that looks like and help them create a blueprint so we know how to get there. So, we’re not just wondering six months from now, ‘Well, why are we so off base here and why are we losing track of the goals that we’ve set.’

So, really, sitting down to figure out how do we get there and how can the Think Tank group help you get there and achieve your goals, and how can the two of us help you. So, it’s just definitely more intense, it’ll be a lot more intense in the coming year.

Kirsty:            Yeah, I mean, it does sound more intense. But it sounds awesome. Like it sounds intense probably in all the good ways. So, I know, I was in the last round as you said, and for me, the in person retreat in San Diego last year was just like phenomenal. And I had no idea what it would be like before I went over there, before I jumped on the plane. But yeah, I love that you guys are doing … is it three of those for this next round?

Rob:   There’ll be … yeah, three. One of them is just a day that’s attached to the event which will be in San Diego next year. And so, there’ll be one in the south, in South Carolina in June, and then we’re going to do it in a yet not quite named city in Europe in October, and then we’ll have an extra Think Tank day attached to TCC IRL 2020 in March of next year.

Kirsty:            Nice. I think one of the things that might be interesting for you guys, because as you said earlier in this conversation, like to see the amount of growth that most Think Tank members had over the course of a year and like what was really possible was … I mean, for me, and it sounds like for you guys as well, like pretty mind blowing like just to see how much you can actually achieve in a year. So, it’ll be interesting maybe having those conversations about where you actually want to be a year from now with your new members at the start of the year. And just seeing like if they’re thinking big enough. Like do you think that might be something that’s sort of like hard to get across? Like the amount of growth that’s actually possible?

Kira:   Definitely. I think that’s the struggle for many of us, is actually sitting down to set those goals the beginning of the year. And so, that’s what we can help people do. I think it’s clear for some people, they know exactly where they want to go. But you’re right, maybe some of it is about challenging each other to make sure are you thinking big enough, or is this realistic? And for some people I think it’s just a matter of not being able to quite see the path that you’re on, and you know you have this successful business, things seem to be going well, but there are definitely some pain points and it’s not what you imagined creating.

So, what could it look like? And that’s where jumping into a room full of different colleagues who have different backgrounds and are building different businesses is really helpful because we can help each other see other possibilities and you can customize your business and really reinvent it, but you can pull ideas from each other and then from resources beyond that. But I think that’s where we could be most useful to help different copywriters create their path, and realize, too, part of it is you don’t even have to call yourself a copywriter to be part of this group. I mean, you can have a varied background. You can be a content writer, a CRO specialist, a brand messaging consultant, strategist, a teacher, a podcaster, a coach. So many different backgrounds, so many different titles, but we can all come together and really help each other grow our businesses.

Kirsty:            Awesome. And that’s so cool I think that you mentioned that you don’t have to be a copywriter to join. Because I know last time that was a bit of a thing for some people. But it’s like, if you can have like quite a varied sort of career or job title or business type, what are some of the things that you are looking for in the people who apply? Like what sort of things do you actually need whether that’s like attitudes or abilities or personality traits or like who is a good fit?

Rob:   That’s a really good question. So, it’s definitely not for people who are just starting out. If you’re struggling to find clients, if you haven’t figured out your niche or your branding, or at least don’t have an idea of what that should be, then it’s maybe a little too early to think about something like the Mastermind. And you really want to be at a place in your business where you can afford to invest in yourself. Because it is an investment, and we really are going to do what we can, bring all of our resources to bear, in order to help each person grow.

But if you’ve got a business that is doing relatively well, you don’t necessarily struggle to find clients every month, that doesn’t mean that you don’t necessarily have dry periods from time to time, but you know what you’re doing, you’re providing copy for your clients, but you want to take your business to the next level, you want to do something different, maybe you want to launch a podcast or maybe you want to try working with contract writers and exploring an agency model or a course, or some other thing that you haven’t done yet, so you’re sort of jumping back into those beginner shoes and want some support, want accountability, want resources to help you do that think well and try to hit a home run the first time you’re up at bat, that’s the person I think that’s right for the Think Tank.

And when you talk about attitude, I think that’s a huge part of it. This isn’t really a thing where we’re going to be commiserating in our failures. It’s okay to fail, but it’s really all about, ‘Okay, that didn’t work out, what can we do as a group to make sure that the next thing that we try isn’t going to fail. Or is going to work better so that we all grow and we all learn from each other.

Kira:   Yeah. And maybe to just add to that conversation, we … Rob and I sat down and created a framework based off what we’re going to really cover and address in this new Think Tank and what will be part of the ongoing conversations, whether it’s a coaching call with us or it’s part of the group conversation, or just the goals that you’re setting for yourself. And so, we can run through those because those will speak to some people, and maybe not resonate with others.

So, in that framework there are six different pillars that we address that will be part of the conversation in the Think Tank. The first one is financial. I mean, definitely talking about the numbers and your financial goals, that is important and we want to help you get your return on investment out of the Think Tank and continue to hit your monthly goals. But that’s not the entire conversation.

So, another one is impact and helping you create more impact that looks different for everybody. Doesn’t mean you have to be a non-profit, but that really figuring out how you can make a difference in the work that you’re doing, that’s also really important to us to help you figure that out.

Rob:   We’re going to spend a lot of time as well talking about authority. I think that even if people’s … a person’s goal isn’t to get up on stage or to be seen as an authority in the copywriting world, we definitely need to be seen as authorities in front of our clients. And so, we’re going to talk about developing our own intellectual property, about developing frameworks and ways to talk about the things that we know that our clients need to hear, or that we’ll do the things. Like get us on stage, or get us the book deal, or start the podcast, or get us featured on other people’s podcasts. So, authority building is going to be a really big part of what we do.

And I think another big part of it is it all needs to lead to the lifestyle that we all want. So, it’s great if you’re making a lot of money, but if you’re working 60, 70 hours and you’re not seeing your friends, you’re not seeing your family, you’re not getting sleep or exercise, that’s not worth it either. And so, we’re going to focus on making sure, as well, that as we build all this stuff, that we’re creating a lifestyle that reinforces the goals that we all have for ourselves over the coming year.

Kira:   Yeah, and also community is such a big part of the Think Tank, as a Mastermind group, that’s important. Really building these relationships in an intimate environment where you can connect with a small group, 30 some different colleagues, copywriters, content writers, and so, whether it’s tapping into that group and building really strong relationships within that group or maybe it’s starting your own community, or it’s a community online, or maybe even building a community offline, whatever that looks like for you as an individual, we want to make sure that we can help you with that, and pull that into the conversation when you’re thinking about your goals for the year.

And then also, time is a huge one. Of course, time is more valuable than anything. So like Rob said, we could help you hit your financial goals, and you could also work every weekend, but that’s not what most of us want. It’s to get more time back to feel like we are in control of our time. And to spend time on the things you want and with the people you want. So that is a really big part of it, too. It’s about really working smarter, and not necessarily just hustling for the sake of hustling, but really making sure that we’re helping everyone in the group figure out what this looks like and how we can really be smart about the way that we use our time.

Kirsty:            You guys are so wise. That is such … a like balanced, holistic framework. It sounds like, I mean for me, like hearing you guys talk through those, I feel like it is just like formalizing what was happening in the last round, right? It’s sort of-

Kira:   Yes.

Kirsty:            … just making … Yeah. Bringing that all together and I guess making it a focal point so that people can be really cognizant of that as the move through and are finding ways to grow and to stretch and to challenge themselves in what really is like a bunch of friends. I know that most of us, when we met up before the event a couple of weeks ago through our Think Tank, our final Think Tank workshop, we were all saying things like how nice it is to be like in a group of people who you genuinely feel like everyone actually cares about you and your business, and you’re actually excited to see them as well.

I think I made the comment to someone that I almost felt like I had more friends in that room of copywriters than I do back here in Sydney. Which is … obviously just a really, really great outcome I think, and a really good testament to what you guys can actually put together in terms of a group that bonds really well and does some really amazing thing.

Rob:   Yeah. That’s nice of you to say that, because we felt the same way. I mean … it’s one thing to have that role as the mentor or the leader of the group, but at the same time we’re learning from the people in the group. And forming the same friendships and it’s meaningful. It feels really good to be in those kinds of rooms.

Kira:   Yeah. And also you’re right, these different pillars that we’re pulling from the Think Tank and turning into this framework that really represent what we’re all about, we did pull them exactly from the group that we worked with the previous year, Kirsty from you, from everyone else, from the conversations that we were having in a group, the struggles, the wins. And it was about so much more than just the financial side, and the numbers, and how much we were making each month. It was like conversations about, ‘Hey, I just had the biggest month ever, but it was awful. And so, how do I do this and continue to grow without killing myself. I want to see my family.’

So, this is all really important. I think we’ve learned personally in our own lives, too, in our own businesses, that it’s definitely more than just the money. It’s about self care, it’s about adventure, having fun, friends, family, so many other elements to our lives that are just important, more important than the money that you’re making.

Kirsty:            Yeah. I couldn’t agree more. I mean, it’s all well and good to make a good amount of money, but if you’re doing that at the expense of actually living a life that you enjoy, it’s a problem.

Rob:   Yeah. Not worth it.

Kirsty:            No, not worth it at all.

Kira:   And Kirsty, can we … can we reverse this on you real quick and just ask you about your own experience in the Think Tank and just the growth that you’ve experienced? I know you’ve shared it in a case study that we’ll share, but for people who haven’t seen that, can you just brag a little bit about the type of growth that you’ve experienced?

Kirsty:            Yeah. Sure. So, I mean, it’s probably worth saying that when you guys approached me about the last round of the Think Tank, I did not feel ready to join. I was, in fact, I think we had like three conversations before I finally sort of submitted and said, ‘Okay, I’ll give this a crack.’ But at that time, I just had my first 8k month, which was really exciting and definitely something worth celebrating.

But now, February, so the last month, as my first 25k month, so that’s I guess one metric of how much I grew in the Think Tank. I think another really cool one is that I actually launched a copywriting course a couple of months ago and that was for me like something I was thinking of doing maybe two or three years down the track. So, it just … being in that group of people and having the support and having I guess the brain trust to sort of bounce ideas around and ask, ‘Is this actually a good idea, can I do this,’ and get the sort of responses that I did was something that just really helped me push my business that I have today. It’s the business that I thought I would have a few years down the track. So, I’m sort of living interesting the future, I think, I feel, in my business as a result of the Think Tank.

But I think, more importantly for me I guess, is that like I said earlier, just having made those really genuine, valuable connections with all of those people in that group, because I know I’m going to have those… I mean, I think probably until I die or until maybe I do something that pisses someone off. But I mean, having that sense of connection is so valuable, especially in the sort of work environment when you’re working for yourself from your own home, that can be quite lonely. So, yeah. Think Tank for me was absolutely the best choice, the right thing at the right time, and the results that I’ve got from that year have just been phenomenal. So, thank you guys. I can’t thank you enough for badgering me to get in there.

Rob:   And it’s interesting, too, because being in Australia, the call times weren’t always convenient for you. I know you made some sacrifices to get up or to stay up late in order to be on calls, and you weren’t always awake when some of the conversations were happening in the Slack group in the States, and yet you still got what feels like a lot of value out of the group even though you weren’t able to be there 100 percent of the time.

Kirsty:            Yeah. Definitely. And I also think it might be worth mentioning for people who are thinking of joining, I like don’t think that you do have to be there 100 percent of the time, because I think if you are actually taking the bits that apply to you, that interest you, that appeal to you, and you take using the group for what you need, that in itself is quite time consuming. It consumes quite a bit of your mental space and your energy.

So, I think if you try to take all of it in, all the time, it might actually be a bit too much. So, that was really helpful for me, and I guess I can’t speak for anyone else, but just knowing that the group was there, to give to it as well, you need to give as good as you get, but also just to pick and choose what you need and what’s relevant for you. But I mean it does sound like with this new version of it, that that track might be a bit more curated as you say, for every individual member

Rob:   Yeah.

Kira:   And Kirsty, what’s so great about your growth over the last year, too, is that you hit some really great milestones and you launched your course, but you didn’t necessarily … you worked really hard, and I know you worked hard the entire year, but you are very careful with your boundaries and you’re great with self-reflection which we talked about when we interviewed you. Can you also just speak to that part? I guess more of the lifestyle pillar that we addressed that you don’t have to kill yourself to reach your goals?

Kirsty:            Yeah. Sure. So, I’m a massive believer in that. And I think, for me, it’s because I’ve come from the world of psychology and counseling where self-care is really like, it’s so front and center to everything that you do, because the idea there, which I think applies really well to copywriting or having your own business, is that you are the tool through which all of your work is done. So, if you’re stressed out, burnt out, run down, cranky, the work you do is going to suffer. Your reputation’s going to suffer. And then, you’re going to probably do some damage to your business.

So, for me, it’s always so important to think about growth and to think about next steps, and next challenges, in that holistic way that you were talking about with that last pillar. So, working out what I can realistically do with the time and the energy I have, and also how I can use my business and my work to feed me in all the ways. So, not just financially, but do I have a business that allows me to enjoy my weekends? That allows me to stop work at a reasonable time everyday? To do the work in flexible hours?

Like those sorts of things are just as important to me as the impact I’m making and as the money I’m earning. So, you can definitely do it. Like it’s possible, I think. Sometimes it’s hard, but there is a way.

Kira:   Awesome. Thank you.

Kirsty:            Well, I feel like I need to turn the tables back on you guys, because I’m not living up to my intro promise right now about putting the spotlight on you two very well. What do you guys think about a lightning round? Are you game?

Kira:   We have been practicing, because last time we did a lightning round, it was very slow and probably frustrating to listen to with Justin. So, we’ve been practicing. I think we could be a little faster this time, maybe.

Rob:   Yeah.

Kira:   Probably not.

Rob:   I think maybe we’ll keep all of our answers to under three minutes each?

Kira:   Maybe four minutes.

Rob:   Is that lightning enough for us? Yeah.

Kirsty:            Excellent. So, we’ll be done in about four hours.

Rob:   Yeah.

Kirsty:            Okay. All right. Let’s go. If you’re going too long, I’ll clap or something to startle you … onto the next question.

Rob:   That’ll be good. Need a buzzer, yeah.

Kirsty:            All right. So, Kira, this first one’s for you. During your presentation at TCC In Real Life, you mentioned that you used to have a blog about being tall. What was your most successful post?

Kira:   Okay. So, I was looking this up this morning and revisiting. I thought my old blog post was down, but it’s still up.

Rob:   What? Oh my gosh.

Kira:   And it’s cringey. It is so cringey. But it’s also kind of beautiful, because I read through posts from 2009 to 2011, and I was like, ‘Oh, I’m pretty much the same person and I’m talking about the same things, it’s just a little bit less cringey now.’ So, it was really fascinating to go back and find that. If you want to know, or see it, I can send it to you. You can email me and I will send you the link to that. But yeah, I didn’t find an exact post that was most popular, but I did try to find my post about being tall, because it is just baffling to me that I started a blog about being tall.

So I was trying to figure out what I was saying back in 2009 about being tall, and what I found is that I started a high heel challenge on February 17th, 2009, I started my high heel challenge, where I challenge myself to wear high heels for 40 days. And so, I would write about the experience of wearing high heels. And that’s what I wrote about. And then, that quickly morphed into, once I realized that I had nothing else to say about wearing high heels and I actually don’t like wearing high heels, it morphed into a different project that actually was really cool and it was called Drink for a Doodle, and I would actually buy people a beer if they sent me a self-portrait and a story about their life.

And I collected these doodles from people all around the world for a year, and would publish their story and their self-portrait, and then send them like a couple dollars for a beer. And I forgot, I completely forgot that I did that, but it was just really cool to look back at those stories and some really wonderful stories from people and artwork and also some not so great artwork, but it was just really fun to look back and connect the dots, and to see a lot of what I’m doing and writing today is not that different than what I was writing a decade ago.

Rob:   Okay. You are definitely the worst lightning round answer person ever, Kira. But the good side is … I think I just found the blog-

Kira:   No you did not.

Rob:   … so I could link to it. I think I can link to it.

Kira:   No, you cannot. Okay. This is the rule. I’m okay sending it to people if you actually want to reach out to me and email me, I will send it to you. But you have to do some work to get it. Rob, do not show the link. Because I … do not show the link. Okay. Cool. We’re done there.

Rob:   All right. All right.

Kirsty:            I actually found the blog yesterday, Kira. So you-

Kira:   Okay. So, it’s not hard to find. Okay. I thought it would be hard to find.

Kirsty:            It’s not hard to find.

Kira:   Great. Glad that’s out there.Have fun. Have at it. It’s awful.

Kirsty:            A quick sideline before I move on. Given the theme today is Australia, doodle does not mean picture in Australia. So, just if you tell that story when you’re over here, just make sure you choose a different work.

Rob:   Great.

Kirsty:            Otherwise, it might sound a bit dodgier.

Kira:   Wait. What does doodle mean in Australia?

Kirsty:            It means penis.

Kira:   Oh. Great. A drink for a doodle. That’s great.

Rob:   This interview just gets better and better.

Kira:   This is good information to have before I ever travel to Australia.

Kirsty:            Yeah, so you don’t want to offer a drink for a doodle. That might not end so well. Okay. All right. Moving on. Rob, following on from Kira’s story, what delightful creative skeleton are in your closet?

Rob:   I don’t know about skeletons, but I used to make paintings when I was like five, six, seven, and paste cotton balls on them, and then go door to door in my neighborhood and sell them to my neighbors.

Kira:   That’s so cute.

Rob:   Is that a … I don’t know if that’s a skeleton, but … and people bought them. Like I made money. I was … a budding artist. Or at least people felt sorry for me. This poor kid that had to sell his horrible artwork door to door.

Kira:   Why did you stick cotton balls on them?

Rob:   Because of the clouds.

Kira:   Aww.

Rob:   Like cotton balls are clouds. Yeah, so. Yeah.

Kira:   I’d like to buy one.

Kirsty:            I love that you answered that so matter-of-factly.

Rob:   Maybe … I’ll think about making a course that’ll teach people how do to this. It’ll be good.

Kirsty:            Sold.

Kira:   I’m not part of that business model. Just to be clear.

Kirsty:            Okay. Kira, another one for you. What’s your natural hair color?

Kira:   So, I’m going to call it chestnut brown with a hint of gold.

Kirsty:          Ooh, sounds so fancy.

Rob:   That does sound fancy.

Kirsty:            It is very fancy.

Rob:   Mine for the record is gray, I think.

Kira:   That’s true. There is a sprinkle of gray coming in.

Rob:   No. Not yours. Mine. Mine is gray.

Kira:   That’s true. Yours is silver, it’s silver.

Kirsty:            Silver and wise. Rob, have you ever cried during a movie?

Rob:   Yes.

Kirsty:            Oh.

Kira:   Oh.

Kirsty:            Which one?

Kira:   What? You have feelings?

Rob:   No, I don’t have feelings. But at the end of Avengers when everybody is dusted … No, I’m kidding. Yes, when I was like a kid I watched Where the Red Fern Grows whatever, and when the two Irish Setters die, I was like in tears. That was awful. That was a terrible way to end a movie.

Kira:   Have you cried recently during a movie? As an adult?

Rob:   No, no I have. At least, not that I’m aware of. I don’t think so.

Kirsty:            Okay. The feelings have turned off recently.

Rob:   Yeah. That was such a bad experience crying in a movie that I’ve never … I’ve buried that ability.

Kira:   Can we ask you the last time you cried at all? Is this getting too personal?

Rob:   It might be. I mean …

Kira:   Okay.

Rob:   It would’ve had to do something to do with my daughter, probably. Like just … It’s been a while. It’s been a little while.

Kira:   Okay.

Kirsty:            Okay. A bit of a more upbeat question for both of you, since Kira just doured the mood.

Kira:   Sorry, guys. Just cut that out. Just cut that out. I killed the mood.

Kirsty:            So, this one’s for both of you. What’s your grossest work from home habit?

Rob:   You’re going to have to go first, Kira. Well, I mean, you’re going to have to go, because I don’t think I have one.

Kira:   I think, yeah. I think Rob is probably very clean and I’m pretty disgusting, so. I mean, I’m not that disgusting, but I’ll definitely wear the same outfit every day for like a week. And I’d probably wear it longer than that if I could, because we do host webinars I do have to change my shirt often, just so people don’t see me wearing the same shirt or same hoodie every day. That might be disgusting? Or I might skip showering for like a couple days and then take a really long two-hour shower. So, yeah, I mean, I’m like a messy artist from back in the day. I just get messy, and then I’ll clean it up afterwards. I will clean up. I’m definitely no one’s ever said that I’m a neatnik.

Rob:   Yeah. I wish I had something I could share, but like I stack stuff on my desk is about as messy as I-

Kira:   Really?

Rob:   … as I get. Yeah. I’m just-

Kira:   Don’t you ever-

Rob:   … I mean, I guess-

Kira:   … just want to get really messy and just like-

Rob:   … I shower every day and I get dressed before I come into my office, and yeah. I don’t know.

Kira:   Don’t you ever just want to like put crumbs all over your desk and just like eat over your laptop?

Rob:   No. That would drive me crazy. Oh, that would drive me nuts. That would be awful.

Kirsty:            Oh, you guys are so different. It’s so good.

Kira:   Good thing that we do not work in the same office.

Rob:   Yeah, exactly.

Kira:   We would be … Sorry. Kirsty, what is the grossest thing that you’ve done? Because I feel like you probably get pretty gross.

Kirsty:            I do get pretty gross. I definitely wear the same clothes for like most days during the week. But like you, Kira, I change my top for my video calls, because you gotta at least pretend to be fresh. And also, I have a bad habit. I eat lunch sometimes over my laptop or breakfast over my laptop, and it just means that whenever I do clean it out, there are so many crumbs in the keyboard.

Kira:   It’s like a place mat. It’s supposed to be. You’re supposed to eat over it. It’s a place mat that cost a lot of money.

Kirsty:            Supposed to catch it all. But I do, then I clean it out with a Q-tip, because it gets to the point where it’s a bit too gross. So you know, I’m a bit like you. I’m messy, but every once in a while I do a big clean.

Kira:   We could definitely work in the same office and just mess it up. That’d be fine.

Kirsty:            We could.

Kira:   Yeah. Just be stinky.

Kirsty:            Okay. Question for both of you. What word gives you the heebie-jeebies?

Rob:   Okay. I’ll go first. I hate, I hate, hate, hate the word hubs or hubby.

Kira:   Hubby?

Kirsty:            Oh.

Rob:   For a husband. Yeah. Like when women type that-

Kira:   I don’t like it either.

Rob:   … you see it every once in a while on Facebook. That just kind of bugs me. I don’t know why, but. And anything that ends in ‘preneur’ that doesn’t start with ‘entre’ kinda bugs as well. Like I’m just … it just, I don’t know. It’s weird. I mean, I’ve typed ‘wantrepreneur’ and other … but like ‘mompreneur’ or ‘dadpreneur’ like that stuff’s just … I don’t know. I just don’t like it.

Kira:   Can I start calling you my …

Rob:   ‘Hubspreneur’. That would be like …

Kira:   … my business hubby. ‘Rob’s my business hubby.’

Rob:   That would be the very worst. The ‘hubspreneur’.

Kira:   Okay, so mine would be like yeast, moist, or Trump, which all of them, heebie-jeebies.

Kirsty:            I can get behind all of those.

Kira:   Take them out.

Kirsty:            So, this one, actually sorry. One more, I forgot about one. So, official votes. Robira or Krob?

Kira:   I think there’s an obvious winner and an obvious loser here.

Rob:   Yeah, probably. Although, if Seinfeld taught me anything, you can’t choose your own nickname. You go out claiming to be T-bone and come back sounding like Coco the Gorilla, so I guess I’ll just leave that up to somebody else to decide.

Kira:   Yeah. That’s true. I feel like we do use Robira a lot, but I also think it’s probably really obnoxious and a lot of people probably cringe or eye-roll. So, Kirsty, maybe you can let us know what we should use.

Rob:   Maybe Robira should’ve been the word that I said is-

Kira:   That’s true.

Rob:   … the one that gives me the heebie-jeebies. I don’t know.

Kirsty:            I like Robira. I think Robira’s there to stay. I think Krob could be like your mean alter ego if you ever need it. Like if you’re in a bad mood one day and you’re like, ‘Ugh, Krob.’ Okay. Next question. And I’m just going to break the fourth wall here, because I gave you guys these questions yesterday. And there’s one here, this one I’m about to read out has a comment thread that has made my morning.

So, I put one thing Rob slash Kira does that annoys the hell out of you, and Rob put a comment saying, ‘I’m sure Kira can think of something, but I honestly don’t have an answer for this.’ And then Kira’s immediate reply was, ‘I have something that annoys me about you. I’ve been meaning to address it for a while, so the timing is perfect.’ So, Kira, this one’s for you.

Kira:   I also cannot believe that you don’t have anything about me, so I challenge-

Rob:   Well, I’m a little grossed out about the crumbs on your computer now. I mean, I guess we should probably talk about that at some point.

Kira:   Yeah. Definitely.

Rob:   Yeah, no. I don’t. I tend to like people and believe the best out of people and whatever and I just haven’t had a reason to think anything negative or to be bugged, so that’s a true answer.

Kira:   Whoa. I think … Okay. That’s … I feel like that’s some pressure to not mess up. Okay.

Rob:   To like me more.

Kira:   Okay. So, what’s really annoyed me about you, Rob, I’ve been meaning to tell you for a while. I was really annoyed that you shaved your beard off.

Rob:   Yeah. I’m sorry about that.

Kira:   I was really annoyed. I felt like your beard was growing well, we talked about your goals to grow it out for the event, and then one day you showed up and it was gone. And I just felt like you should have consulted me about that.

Rob:   Yeah. Sorry. I just couldn’t take it anymore. It was driving me crazy. I guess I’m not meant to be a beardy.

Kira:   Glad this is out in the open. So, I don’t know if I’m over it, but … I was annoyed and I’m still a little bit annoyed, so.

Kirsty:            Well, look. Let’s patch up this awkwardness by flipping the question around and asking you both what is something that the other person does that you really admire.

Kira:   Okay. I’ll go first.

Rob:   Yeah, so. The problem … I was going to say, the problem with this answer though is it could take … literally it could take all day. Because I think, at least for me, there’s a lot of things that I admire about Kira.

Kira:   Okay.

Rob:   You go ahead and go first, Kira, because I need to hear something positive.

Kira:   Yeah. Sorry. Now that I’ve criticized you with your board. Okay. So, here are some thoughts I did scribble down. Rob can just figure out anything, and I’m always impressed that he just like … he just figures it out like a good entrepreneur. And just a good human. Where I’m like, ‘I don’t know how to do it,’ he just figures it out.

Kira:   He’s kind of just rock solid, steady, holds the fort down. Like if we wouldn’t have The Copywriter Club, if Rob was not here, I would’ve given up a long time ago. And then also, just on a personal level, like I love that he’s not overly emotional on things, but does have emotions, even though I definitely make fun of you and say you don’t have emotions, I do know that you do have emotions, but I like that you balance us out, because I can be overly sensitive and overly emotional, and so I think having a business partner and friend who is really can tell me when I’m being crazy nicely and doesn’t take things too sensitively, is really helpful.

And then also, he’s just really wise and like super smart guy. And I mean, he’s got his MBA and doesn’t talk about it, but he’s got his MBA, he’s a smart guy. Reads a lot of books. Have you seen his background on video? Like … he’s got books and he reads a ton and he’s just very … I feel like always has something wise to say when we’re on calls and whenever I feel a bit lost or I just need some guidance, like Rob’s definitely one of the go-to people I will go to.

And I also admire his passion for the craft of writing. I don’t think … not everybody has that passion, but he just genuinely loves copywriting and writing and reading and learning and beyond that, it’s like just travel and life and so, I’m just inspired by him on a business level and also on a human level, and also his family is very important to him, so I feel like we both share that in common. And so, I could keep going on. I’m going to stop.

Rob:   I was going to say, ‘Don’t stop. Keep going.’ Like I can’t wait to read this transcript because it’s going to be awesome.

Kira:   Just take a screenshot of it. Frame it.

Rob:   Exactly.

Kira:   I’ll frame it for you.

Rob:   Things that I think Kira is awesome at and I really admire about her. Obviously, we complement each other really well, so she fills a lot of gaps that I don’t have. She’s a really good listener. I realized this when we first started the podcast and just noticed that her questions are so much better than mine because she was actually listening to the people that we were talking to, and I wasn’t. It was something I had to definitely improve.

But when we get on coaching calls, when we’re on calls with members of the Think Tank, and others, she’s just so good at listening and figuring out like what is the real thing that we’re trying to address. She’s got a ton of empathy and really cares about people that … on the calls that we’re trying to help, but also she cares about the members of all of our groups, and wants to make sure that they’re having not just a regular experience, but like that they’re having success, and they’re getting the feedback and the things that they need.

And then, ultimately, she’s a fantastic copywriter. One of the things that I first noticed about her when we first met was how good her copy was, and I think I even told her at the time that it was some of the best copy that I had read from somebody with as much experience that she had. I just … I’ve always been impressed with how engaging it is, and how funny she can be in her copy. Especially when she’s writing stuff for us. Like it’s just … it’s great. So, she’s a fantastic partner. Is that enough?

Kira:   Wow. It is like therapy. This is like business partner therapy. I think we should do this all the time.

Kirsty:            It’s so nice. I’ve got the warm and fuzzies.

Kira:   We’ll book an appointment with you-

Rob:   I’m still not crying.

Kira:   … every month, Kirsty.

Kirsty:            Okay. That’s so nice. These questions feel so shallow after all that.

Kira:   I know. We got deep.

Kirsty:            Those lovely compliments.

Rob:   Let’s get shallow. We should get shallow, because we’re about that.

Kirsty:            Okay. Too close to having some feelings, are you, Rob?

Rob:   Yeah, exactly.

Kira:   Yeah, this is getting too intense. We’re being too nice to each other. Stop.

Kirsty:            So, what was your most random childhood hobby? I think, Rob, you might have already given us the answer with your cotton ball door to door paintings.

Rob:   Yeah. I don’t know that I would call that a hobby, but that probably counts. That’s probably as random as … other than that it’s like I had a stamp collection.

Kira:   That’s a hobby. That’s like a legit hobby. Do you still have it?

Rob:   Yeah. They’re actually in a box downstairs somewhere. I didn’t actually collect stamps. I just had a stamp collection because my aunt worked in the State Department, and so they would get letters from all over the world, and so she would just keep them in a box, and then she would give them to me when she would visit. And so, I just have this big collection of international stamps. But I didn’t … I’m not sure that I actually really collected them.

Kira:   I collected key chains as a kid. So, I had this big, big pack of key chains that were all attached and like really cool, but I didn’t actually have a car or keys to anything. So it was just the key chains without keys. Which doesn’t really make sense, but that’s what we all traded at school. And then, I also designed jewelry at once point in my early career as a ten year old. So, that also happened.

Kirsty:            You guys are both so entrepreneurial so early on.

Kira:   Didn’t really make money, but I just designed jewelry and had it, but no one actually bought it. So, I think Rob was actually making money selling his paintings. I was just creating businesses that didn’t make money.

Rob:   If only we had met earlier, I could’ve gone door to door selling your key chains or your jewelry, and it would’ve been … that would’ve worked.

Kira:   That’s true. That’s true.

Kirsty:            What’s the most woo-woo thing you’ve tried?

Kira:   I’m curious to hear what Rob has to say.

Rob:   I guess, I mean, I’ve put things on a vision board before. There’s a picture of a bike that I really want that’s on my vision board. I don’t have the bike, but I put a picture on it. That’s probably as woo as I get.

Kira:   Which is funny, because I think you’re actually more woo than I am, even though you would think I’m more woo than you, but I don’t have a vision board.

Rob:   Yeah, well. I mean. Yeah. I don’t know.

Kira:   But the funny thing … Like is anything else on your vision board?

Rob:   No.

Kira:   It’s just a bike?

Rob:   Just a bike.

Kira:   You have to get that bike. I do like … I’m into the woo, but I haven’t done … I’ve realized I haven’t done that many woo-woo things. I did buy the Astro Twins. I do get into horoscopes and astrology. So, that’s probably it. So, I bought the Astro Twins yearly planning guide, which is this huge book, and basically predicts everything that will happen in your year ahead for every sign, so I could tell you if you want to know what’s going to happen in your year ahead, Rob or Kirsty.So, I like to read that to family members and friends until they tell me to stop.

Rob:   Does mine say anything about a bike?

Kira:   It does. It does. That’s crazy.

Rob:   Because that would be … that would be awesome. Yeah, my bike.

Kira:   I will bring it with me next time we meet up. But yeah, I love reading horoscopes and that’s probably as woo as I get.

Kirsty:            What’s an idea or a concept that you’re obsessed with right now?

Rob:   I think you should go first, Kira.

Kira:   Yeah. There are a couple. So, psychedelics and research in mental health, birdwatching, solitude, and digital minimalism. That’s probably all I’m interested in right now.

Rob:   That’s a list.

Kira:   Nothing else.

Rob:   That’s a good list. I don’t know that my answer’s like really surprising, but I mean, I’m always looking at things around persuasion. So, that’s totally fascinating to me, and psychology, maybe that’s why copywriting is just such a love for me. So, I like that. I geek out occasionally on philosophy, to read about philosophers from say the middle ages, more recently. Yeah, I mean, I guess that’s probably most of my thinking that … extra time. Other that that I’m just kind of hanging out with my family or just playing around.

Kirsty:            Awesome. Very enlightened, the both of you. Okay. What’s one thing you’ve stopped doing or let go of this past year that’s made you feel awesome? And Kira, maybe let’s start with you, because I feel like this lines up with your current interests.

Kira:   Yeah. I have let go of scheduling. So, I’ve stopped scheduling calls and meetings on Mondays and Fridays, which is not anything revolutionary, but has been huge for me. Even just really just pulled back on calls, just realizing that I don’t love to be on call all day, that’s just not where I want to be. So, that’s been huge. I’ve let go of demons. So, I started the year really obsessed with like ghosts and demons and over time I’ve like let that go.

And then, client work, like just pulling back on client work. 2018 was very intense with client work. But now I’m just really scaling back, finally. Although I know I’ve said that many times, but this time it’s real. And then even just … I think I had to prove something to myself in 2018, I needed to prove something, and I don’t … I think I proved it, whatever that was, and so I’ve just like … I don’t know, I just feel a bit lighter now. And I feel like, I don’t know, I feel like things are feeling more awesome these days.

Kirsty:            What about you, Rob?

Rob:   So, I don’t know if this is just the past year, but I have gotten a lot better at letting go of being offended.

Kira:   Oh, that’s good.

Rob:   I think I realized that being offended is a choice. Even if somebody’s being offensive, it’s still my choice whether that bothers me or not. And so, I’ve just tried to let that go. I’m not always good at it. You know, if somebody says something that’s particularly hurtful or whatever, like it’ll bug me for a while. But I’m pretty good at sort of just letting it go and saying, ‘you know what? It doesn’t matter. It hurts me when I’m offended more than it hurts another person.’ So, probably my-

Kira:   That’s good.

Rob:   … thing that I’ve let go of.

Kirsty:            Okay. Last question. What do you hope you’re celebrating this time next year?

Kira:   A move to DC. So, I’m moving, I’m leaving New York City, so I want to be settled this time next year in my new home, that’s part of it. And then, I think just feeling a sense of freedom and adventure, some more feelings I guess, and celebrations, and really feeling like things are under control and growing with The Copywriter Club that it’s in a really good place in many ways for the two of us, so that we can focus on it and invest more time and energy in it. So, I think just being a little bit more stable. We’ve been in such a fast, rapidly growing stage with The Copywriter Club and juggling so many things that I just want it to be a little bit more dialed in. And so, that would be worth celebrating, even though that’s not necessarily like a particular milestone.

Rob:   Yeah. I’m not sure what I want to celebrate other than maybe a successful Copywriter Club In Real Life number three. We’ll just have wrapped that up a year from now, so if that’s’ a success, that will feel good. I’m sure that there … I probably need to think about it more deeply, but at least from a business sense, I’m hoping that we’re celebrating another year in The Copywriter Club.

Kirsty:            Amazing. And I hope you guys are, too. And in fact, I have no doubt that you will be. I think you’re already proved that you are such valuable power-packed duo, and you’re definitely here to stay. And you’ve helped me so much in my career so far. I’ll never be able to thank you guys enough, and I know that I speak for a whole bunch of people when I say that. So, yeah. Keep doing what you’re doing. Maybe get better at lightning rounds, because-

Kira:   How did we do? Were we better than last time?

Kirsty:            … that was more like a … I don’t know.

Rob:   What’s slow? Like … we do turtle rounds. We do snail rounds.

Kira:   Yeah.

Rob:   We don’t do lightning rounds.

Kira:   Well, thank you, Kirsty, for interviewing us. We really appreciate it, and for being part of the Think Tank over the past year, and The Accelerator before that, being part of our event in Brooklyn, and just part of our community and lives. I’m just really glad that I met you. Because we can be gross together in our offices and I just am really glad that we have become friends and that you are a part of our lives.

Kirsty:            Aww. Likewise. Thanks, Kira.

Rob:   Thanks, Kirsty.

You’ve been listening to The Copywriter Club Podcast with Kira Hug and Rob Marsh. Music for the show is a clip from Gravity by Whitest Boy Alive available in iTunes. If you like what you’ve heard, you can help us spread the word by subscribing in iTunes and by leaving a review. For show notes, a full transcript and links to our free Facebook community, visit the We’ll see you next episode.


Leave a Comment


Discover your copywriter strengths then use them to land more baller
clients and strategically position yourself at the tippy top of the industry.

take the quiz