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The people and stuff we mentioned on the show:

Kira’s website
Rob’s website
The Copywriter Club Facebook Group
The Copywriter Underground

Books and things we’re into right now:

21 Lessons for the 21st Century by Yuval Noah Harari  
The Highly Sensitive Person by Elaine N. Aron
Run to Win by Stephanie Schriock
The Vanishing Half by Brit Bennett
You Get What You Pitch For by Anthony Sullivan
The Catalyst by Jonah Berger
A History of the World in 10 and a Half Chapters by Julian Barnes
The Road Less Stupid by Keith J. Cunningham
Frank Morgan Radio
The Smartless podcast
The Tim Ferriss Show

Full Transcript:

Kira:  Hi, Rob.

Rob:  Hey, Kira. We were just saying that we should have written an intro for this episode, since we write those after we record. Now, our process is all changed and we’re just recording now this interview to go live next week actually. So I don’t know if we’re going to have time to do an intro or not.

Kira:  We don’t. Yeah. We’re anti shoulds, right? All the things you should do, let’s just not do it. We don’t… No more shoulds for us. So there is no intro. It’s just us, the two of us today. This is episode 240, right?

Rob:  Yeah. Episode 240 and every 10th episode or so we like to just jump on and just chat about different stuff, go guest free and this is all our stuff. If you don’t like that, you can skip to the next episode or listen to last week’s episode or stay tuned and you get a full dose of Kira and Rob.

Kira:  Yes. This is just us wild and free. So we are going to ask each other questions and just kind of interview each other because even though we talk frequently, we don’t always ask each other questions about business ideas, what else we’re doing so I think Rob and I just need more quality time together. We have a lot of time together, maybe we need more quality time together.

Rob:  There you go. Yeah. Finding out more. I mean, we’ve only been doing this for four years, right? So trying to understand who the other person is with I think-

Kira:  Who are you? Who is this person? So let’s kick it off with the first question. Rob, what are some mistakes that you’ve made in your copywriting business? I guess this could really be any mistake. It’s all fair game. But I was just thinking, I think frequently about mistakes I’ve made with projects with clients previously. I don’t know why they just kind of pop in to my mind at different times and every time I think about it, I’m like, oh, we should talk about that. We should share the stuff that doesn’t go as well or what we look back on and wish we could change. Because so often we talk about everything that is going well or all the things that we’ve done well, but let’s focus on some of those mistakes.

Rob:  Yeah. Let’s talk about all the things we do wrong. And we’re mostly talking about our own personal businesses here, the things that we do working one-on-one with clients. And as I was thinking about this earlier, there are a couple of things that come up, I think, for a lot of the copywriters that we talk to in the think tank when we’re coaching or even in the accelerator, the underground, these kinds of things, I’ve made the exact same mistakes that they do. And I think I’ve mentioned this one in particular several times, but the number one mistake that I made especially when I went out and started freelancing, was trying to do it all on my own, going alone, not having a network of support. That doesn’t mean that my family wasn’t behind me or that I didn’t know other people in business, but I hadn’t really lined up a community that I could bounce questions off of, ask questions about, say, invoices or proposals or pitching or any of that kind of stuff.

And I think that slowed my progress as I launched my own business as a freelancer. I can remember back in my agency days, which was a long time ago and we’re working with freelancers and freelancers would come into the office and I think, man, how are they making this work? How are they getting this stuff done? How are they pitching their clients? And just having had even five or six people that I can bounce those kinds of questions off of I think would’ve made it a lot easier. So that’s number one. Number two, I think when I launched my own business, I didn’t realize how powerful it is to be able to identify a problem or a pain that my client is having to go right at that. And so my first few pitches to clients I went out and I basically get an appointment to go sit down with them using my network whatever, to get it into the conference room with them and then I just say, “Hey, what are your copywriting needs?”

And I’d let them figure out how I could help them instead of the other way around. And I think it’s much more powerful when you can come in and say, “Hey, you need help with this kind of content. I can put together a strategy. I can deliver this for you, X, Y, and Z.” Or, “I noticed on your homepage you’re not collecting emails. I can put together this kind of a lead funnel for you.” Or whatever the problems are, I think I could have done a lot better on that. And then number three, biggest mistakes that I’ve made, and I still make this mistake, is I don’t charge enough. And not necessarily being aware of how much value a client gets from the work that we do, I think that just holds us all back and I still want to win the business.

And so when I know that I’m sending out a proposal or whatever, oftentimes I’ll still cut down my prices below what I think I really should be charging them because I want to make sure that I get the business, right? So those are maybe the three biggest mistakes as I look back. They’re not necessarily specific to a particular client, but really specific to the kind of business that we all run. How about you?

Kira:  Well, just wondering, when did you start your freelance business? So when you’re talking about, I didn’t have a network, what year was that?

Rob:  Yes. So I mean, I freelanced the whole time that I’ve worked, right? So I’ve always had kind of a backup job or I’ve had my own company or whatever. And so I was always doing freelancing through there. I launched my own business in 2016 really hardcore going out only doing copywriting only, that kind of stuff. And again, I had my own company from 2014 through 2016, so I was freelancing at that time, but I also had the SAS company that I had that was bringing in revenue. Once I sold that off and I was all in, that was about 2016.

Kira:  Cool. I want to circle back. So it would be cool to talk about if you’re comfortable with it today selling your SAS company at some point, and just the steps it takes, because I’m really interested in that. So I’m going to-

Rob:  And I probably did it all wrong. If we talked about it, you’d be like, oh, Rob, you could have had so much more money or I don’t know. So let’s talk about some of the mistakes you’ve made-

Kira:  That would be cool.

Rob:  … that made you raise this question.

Kira:  Yeah. So I think for me, when I look back, it was almost not knowing that I could really say no and not knowing that saying no when you’re growing fast is actually a really smart way to grow in a smarter way. So not even just about burnout, but just like about doing quality work and really building strong relationships with clients, when I look back, I just kind of said yes to everything and I didn’t even think it was an option to say no. I think it was just like not in my mindset or head just that you should probably say no and not stack everything. I almost was like, I think this is just how it’s supposed to be, this is just how it’s supposed to feel. So when I look back, I can think of specific clients where I think the quality of work was always good.

Like I don’t look back and ever say, wow, I really failed that project or I didn’t put in enough effort into that project, but I do look back and I feel like there are certain projects where I worked with junior copywriters on them, I always did, and maybe it wasn’t as good as it could have been if I would have given it more of my attention rather than spreading myself so thin across so many projects at one time. And so that was like when I was working on eight projects at a time and I just look back and I’m like, what were you thinking?

And so I can think of a couple of specific ones where, again, what I was handing over to the client, and some of them were pretty like big name, cool clients, I think it was good. Time was put into it. It was quality work, but I feel like I could have done more and added more me and given it more of my attention and just like really put all of me into those projects and taken on less to excel, especially with those specific clients that were like these rockstar clients. So I look back and I’m like, why don’t I just slow down and take on less and just really build solid relationships with those clients and say no to other ones.

Rob:  Why do you think that you felt like you had to say yes to everything?

Kira:  I think I was just in this… I don’t know. I think it was just maybe the power of yes. The downside of yes is that you just get stuck in that cycle and you don’t know how to pull yourself out. I really don’t know. Actually, I really don’t have that answer other than at least now I’ve grown out of it and now I take on less client work, but I really put more of myself into it. And I don’t mean I don’t work with junior copywriters or other collaborators, I still do, but I’m more involved. I just feel like I’m more invested. I care more because I have more capacity to care and those relationships are really solid. Like I work with them longer for longer periods of time on multiple projects. I care more and they become… Not that your clients have to become your friends, they don’t, but they feel kind of like friends in a way because I build those relationships.

And I think I do the things that we teach in the Copywriter Club. I think I finally started doing each of those best practices that we teach that I just missed early on, because I was moving so fast and spread so thin. So I think that’s a big one is just, I would say the lesson is just like not spreading yourself too thin because you think that’s what you’re supposed to do and you think that’s what growth is supposed to look like, but just really doing quality work, less of it and building that way. I wish I could have heard that message from somebody, I don’t know if I would’ve listened. I think that’s the big one. I would also add like this is a common mistake for all of us, but not getting those testimonials sooner. Not asking everybody for a testimonial. There’s so many especially during that time where I was just really busy where I just didn’t ask and I was like, “Oh, I’ll get it later.” And you can’t get it later.

I mean, you can, but you can’t go back three years later and be like, “Hey, remember that time we worked together.” You can do that, it’s just a lot less effective and it just gets awkward. So now I make an effort of doing what you’re supposed to do and asking at the right time and not missing those testimonials that I missed out on for a couple of years. So I think that’s another big one. And then also the last one is just like working with people that I didn’t… It’s not that they were bad people, it’s just, we didn’t click. And again, I would say yes to them in those projects, even though I wasn’t excited about it. I wasn’t excited about the project. And in some cases, I kind of didn’t really like the client. Again, not because there was something wrong with them or me, it was just there wasn’t that chemistry, but I would still say yes, and I just didn’t feel as invested in those projects.

And so today, I would never do that. I have to really feel excited about the person I want to work with and invested. But back then, I was just saying yes to everything and then you get people that you’re like, I don’t even know if I really like you, but I have to write about you. So I think I just matured finally, and my business matured and I make smarter decisions today, but all in all, less is more, that’s the big takeaway for me.

Rob:  Yeah. I think all of us have to go through that process of figuring out who do we want to work with and how do we narrow that down to the right people. And I do think it takes a lot of saying yes to figure out what to say no to. And so I guess it’s probably just part of that natural process that we all have to go through as we start our own businesses here.

Kira:  And maybe we just have to go through it and it has to be painful, but I also think it would have been nice if I had some guidance in that area back then, so that I didn’t make those mistakes or I could see more clearly, or it could be more clear about what I wanted. So I think that’s where we’re trying to do that with the Copywriter Club and give that guidance to people so they don’t have to make those same mistakes.

Rob:  Okay. So second question. There are a lot of copywriters, Kira, who really struggle with comparison hiatus. They see that other copywriters are doing something similar to the thing that they wanted to do or the specialty that they developed is similar to something else that somebody else is teaching and what they end up doing is it holds them back from actually going out into the world and talking about the things that they want.

So let’s say they’ve been working on sales pages, they wanted to do a course on sales pages, but they then see there’s, I don’t know, two dozen other copywriters out there with courses already on sales page so they hold themselves back. They don’t do it. Or maybe it’s about content creation or brand voice or researcher or something else. Or we also see it where they’ve learned something from somebody and they now do it their way, but they’re afraid to teach it because they don’t want to step on a mentors toes or whatever. So what do you think about that kind of thing and I mean, I have some ideas here, but how do you think we can address it as copywriters?

Kira:  Yeah. Well, I know, like you said, this has popped up a lot recently and I think that it will just continue to pop up because the copywriting community is quite solid, right? Whether it’s in the TCC or other communities, we’re more connected than ever to other copywriters who might be doing something similar to us or might even… It’s really easy to find other copywriters in the space who might have a similar style or brand personality or work on the same deliverables. So the overlap is there. It’s going to continue to be there as it gets more and more crowded as more freelancers become copywriters. So I think the real challenge is what you mentioned, that the worst thing that could happen is that you hold yourself back and don’t create the business you want or launch the idea, the product, the course, whatever it is, the podcast, because you feel like someone else is already doing it.

And it just keeps popping up with copywriters that we talk to where they’re like, “I haven’t done this thing yet, or so-and-so’s doing it.” And usually it’s really distinct and there are differences. I mean, the biggest difference is you, right? Rob teaching something is very different than Kira teaching it, which is very different than somebody else teaching it. So at the core, you bring something very different to the table, but also there’s room for everyone. And I think this is where having a scarcity mindset can really hold you back. And that’s more of a mindset issue. I know you and I have worked on this over the years. It’s not perfect. I still have times where I can focus too much on what other people are doing and not what I’m doing and get lost. But I do think it takes practice and over time it can start to get easier.

I would just say part of my advice would be to stop paying attention to what everyone else is doing, especially if they’re someone who’s similar to you or who’s doing in a similar space, right? You both specialize in… Like for me, it’s like personality driven copy. So I probably shouldn’t watch everything that every other personality driven copywriter’s doing, because it will be a distraction. It could cause me to stall. It could cause me to not do something. It could be a distraction that prevents me from actually doing what I should be doing. And the worst thing is you could actually pull in ideas or pull in someone else’s IP unintentionally, which could happen, right?

We’ll assume that it’s not intentional, but sometimes there is overlap and we pull stuff in that maybe we’d rather not pull in. So I stopped paying attention to other people who are doing something similar to us as the Copywriter Club or to me as Kira Hug. I’ve stopped paying attention to them and I’ve cut it out and put the blinders on. What would you recommend, Rob, to people who are struggling with this or maybe have had that idea and said, I’m not going to do it, or I’m not going to specialize in this because so-and-so is already specializing in this.

Rob:  Well, and there’s a balance here because we pay attention to other people because we want to learn, we want to see if there’s something that we’re missing. We want to add to our skill set. And so from that perspective, paying attention to people is actually a smart thing to do. But you’re right, at some point you do have to kind of stop saying, okay, this person has a sales page course or whatever so I’m not going to buy that course because I have my own process and I can put together my stuff and I’ll do it my way. I think this is really where some of the stuff we teach again in our programs really helps like having frameworks that are really exclusive to you, having a unique mechanism so you understand what is the thing that you do differently to deliver the result.

So if you’re writing sales pages or voice guides or content plans or whatever it is, the deliverable at the end of the day is going to be pretty dang similar no matter what the process is. But if your process is different, if you’ve changed it up a little bit, if you understand what goes into it, you can talk about it in a way that is fresh and original to you. But I think the best way to make sure that this doesn’t ever become a problem is that instead of creating copywriting products for copywriters, you create copywriting products, marketing products for your niche.

So if you are helping coaches to write personality driven sales pages, like what you do, Kira, you create a course that’s designed for coaches to do that thing, right? It’s not for other copywriters to go through the same process. Or if I want to do something around content plans or again, I know I keep using the same examples over and over, but maybe it’s an email sequencer or an email plan, list building, whatever, I want to do that for the SAS niche because I’m not teaching other copywriters how to do something that the copywriters are teaching, I’m teaching people in my niche who do not have this fundamental skillset how to do these things that we do well.

And I think the other side of that is that oftentimes when we aim these kinds of products to our niche, they sell better than they do when we sell them to other copywriters. So it can actually be more lucrative to make sure that you’re teaching people in your niche as opposed to teaching other copywriters. That might sound a little self-serving since clearly you and I teach copywriters to do a lot of stuff, and I’m not necessarily saying don’t compete with us but I am saying this is something that we’ve seen over and over and over again when you create products that teach people how to market or copywrite better in your niche, you’ll often do better than if you’re just another me-too in a crowded copywriting field.

Kira:  But it’s also not to say there’s no space in the copywriting, if you are passionate about serving copywriters, which we meet many copywriters who just love helping other copywriters, there is so much space within there because you can look and identify holes. And again, Rob mentioned, it’s more self-serving. We do certain things really well in the Copywriter Club, we do not teach and have a 100 different offers. That’s not realistic. That would actually be a very bad business move for us. It’s also we have certain things we specialize in collectively.

And there are so many holes in there and opportunities if you are really excited about serving other copywriters where you could identify like here’s something new that I’ve done it really well, I’ve got results and I could help other copywriters do that too. So I think part of it is surveying the space and understanding the space well enough to identify the best opportunities, the best holes in the marketplace rather than jumping into something that has maybe been done repeatedly, and you might not get as much traction there.

And then also I do love your advice around about just like looking beyond the copywriting space too to figure out what other problems you can solve that you may be more passionate about and more excited about. And so there’s so much opportunity out there for copywriters who are ambitious and have talent and have ideas and want to create and do the work that there’s really no… It’s infinite possibilities, which is really exciting. But again, the worst thing you could do is decide that you’re not going to do anything because someone else could be doing something in a similar way. If you feel like that keeps happening to you then, well, actually Rob what’s your advice if there’s someone who’s like I know I didn’t launch something or create it six months ago, or I know I’m not sharing my expertise in this niche that I wanted to focus on because I feel like someone else has already done it, what would your advice be to them?

Rob:  I mean, again, assuming that you’re not taking their ideas or their IP, I say do it anyway for all the reasons that we’ve said. Your voice is different. You’re going to connect with different people than other people will connect. You’re going to put your own spin on things, your unique way of looking at things. If you’ve got a framework, if you’ve thought through your processes, if you understand what makes you different, I’d say do it anyway, because there is space for everyone. And especially again, if you go out to a particular niche, if you’re teaching people who don’t have any of these skills, there’s just so much opportunity out there to share this superpower that we have as copywriters. And so I guess I would just say do it anyway.

Kira:  Okay. So tips overall, learn from other experts, but know when it might be a good time to stop learning about this one thing from people if you want to step into that area. It might be too similar so it’s worth not… I’m not saying this very well, but like not learning from direct competitors because you want to bring new ideas to the table. So look outside of your industry, look outside in the world for creative concepts, experiences, and viewpoints that you could bring into that space rather than just looking at everyone else who’s doing something similar to you. Like you mentioned frameworks, developing your framework, putting blinders up and also figuring out your unique mechanism and X factor.

Rob:  Yep. All of those things, very helpful as you go out and want to teach the things that we all teach.

Kira:  Okay. Next question. So we hosted our virtual event this past April. And so we took our in-person in real life TCC event and went virtual. We learned a lot along the way. What would you say, Rob, are some lessons you learned from that transition that you would want to share with someone else who might be taking an event virtual or hosting their first virtual event?

Rob:  Yeah, I think the biggest thing that I take away every time we do an event is that it takes a team to produce an event. I mean, looking back to the very first time that you and I produced an event and we were doing everything on our own right up until maybe four weeks before the event and I think Perna connected us with Elaine, our event coordinator at the time. And she was a total lifesaver. Like we could not have pulled it off without her. And as each year, as IRL has kind of gotten bigger or we’ve added different things, having a team to help out is massively important. And one of our team members had a baby right in the middle of it, which again, made things a little tricky for us, but having a team in place is critically important.

Number two I think is when it comes to doing something like a virtual event, you have to be aware of what’s out there in order to be able to do things differently. And you and I approached this and said we don’t want this to feel like a summit, we don’t want this to feel like a Zoom call because over the last year so many of us have gotten Zoom fatigue. We’ve all been in the free summits and all that kind of stuff and so being aware of what’s out there so that we could, I guess, to use a well overused term, zag when everybody else is zigging, doing something different I think helped us to make it a really unique kind of an online event. And so we had the murder mystery and we had a mixology class and the spill your guts or fill your guts which is very different. But then we also had amazing presenters who came in and taught copywriting business skills, some really great conversations and then matching that with the community stuff that we do.

It’s hard to replicate an offline event in an online space. I think we did pretty good. Maybe we can do it a little bit better next time if there’s a next time, but the biggest takeaway for me is I miss in-person. I miss hanging out with real people a lot and I can’t wait till we can get back together. How about you, what were your big takeaways from our event?

Kira:  I think you covered most of them, but I think the big parts are you have to have a strong tech team. So we hired a really awesome AV tech team to work with us. I mean, it was like six people on their team and they were so incredible. So I think especially if you’re going to operate only in the virtual space, they need to be top notch. Like they need to be on it at all times because random problems will pop up and you want a team that’s dealt with everything. So I felt that we made a really great decision working with this incredible team that we worked with. Communication, so in addition to tech, yes, you have to get your tech straight and this isn’t to say that in in-person events you don’t have to have an AV team, of course you do, of course you want them to also be good, but it just is even more important when everything depends on virtual.

And then in addition to that, communication is even more critical than I realized because people can’t walk up to your help desk. If you were having an in-person event, they can’t ask questions, they can’t walk up to Rob and ask him questions. They can’t go up to the event organizer. They can’t ask their friends they’re sitting next to. So the communication is so important and I think probably doing it again, I would have even stronger communications team, I’d had every type of email in place so that people know where they need to be, they have all the information they need that’s all set up ahead of time because we ended up sending out so many emails, way more than we would send if we were hosting our in-person event. And so that is a huge difference you need to prepare for.

And then the last part is just you want to ask people who are joining and already paid to join what they want and you really want to shape the event around what would be most useful to them format wise, style wise, because you don’t really know until you ask them. And so we asked the people who attended frequently like, what would make this incredible for you? What would be useful? And we shaped it around what the people wanted. And I think that really helped make it worthwhile in the end. So it was really giving attendees what they want.

Rob:  Yeah. And if you’re listening to us talk about this and you’re thinking, oh, I wish I had been able to see what that was all about, we’ll add a link so you can see the videos. We recorded everything, workshops, presentations, even the fun stuff and we’ll include a link in the show notes where you can click over and get a copy of that if that’s something that’s interesting to you. Okay. Next question. I know this is something we’ve talked a lot about. On the podcast recently and in our groups we’ve promoted Dave Wells’ book Done by Noon and all of that, but Kira, how do you stay focused especially knowing that you’ve got stuff you’re doing in your own business, we’ve got stuff that we’re doing together, you’re getting ready to take some maternity leave. There’s all kinds of stuff and we’re approaching summertime. So all kinds of stuff that goes on with that. How do you stay focused?

Kira:  Yeah, I think for me pulling this from Dave Rowell and this is pretty basic and obvious too, is just focusing on less. And this goes back to what I shared about looking back at mistakes earlier in my copywriting career. I think oftentimes my mistakes come from spreading myself too thin thinking I can do way more than I can do and not having that focus, like knowing exactly what should be done to hit the goals that you want to achieve. And so I think the benefit this past year of dealing with overwhelm of being pregnant and having way less energy over the last nine months has just been that I have to focus now. And like you said, we have to focus as a team because I’m about to step out for some time. And we’ve had different team changes and other team members stepping out too.

So if we don’t focus, the business, we don’t want to be dramatic, it’s not going to shut down, but there are repercussions if we don’t figure out how to focus. For me personally, if I don’t figure out how to focus, I’m going to really struggle because I’m not going to have the capacity to pull all nighters and bang things out like I used to. So I think for me it finally has become so critical that I do it, which is probably helpful. So for me, it’s just now like what are the three buckets we’re focused on as a team every quarter? And I need to think about that every morning when I wake up, what is it? What are we focused on? What needs to move the needle? What do I need to focus on today or this week? And it has to just be related to those three buckets.

And even if it’s not, at least I know, okay, this project really isn’t related to those three projects, but as soon as I’m done with it, I need to get back to those three projects. And having that communication across our team is so important so we’re all working towards the same thing, because I think you and I have felt it when we’re not, when it feels like we’re all moving in different directions and that does not feel good and that does not move our business forward. How do you think about focus?

Rob:  I think you said it really well. I mean, for me, if it’s not on my list, if it’s not in my calendar, I know it’s not going to get done. And a lot of the times, if it is on my list, it’s still not going to get done because there’s just always more to do than we can possibly get done. And so it’s focusing on the most important things, things that have to happen. We know we’re going to get a podcast out every week. We know that we’re going to get a newsletter out to our underground members every single month. We know that the programs that we run are going to have to have certain things happening at certain times.

So focusing on that stuff first and then fitting in the other stuff in between and being okay when stuff doesn’t get done and knowing that it’s not the end of the world, we can push a week or two, but just trying to fit in where we can. It is important to take time away from work. I mean, I can easily sit at my desk 10 or 12 hours a day and the problem is when I do that, I actually am less effective the next day or the day after. And so really taking that time to relax but I agree with everything that you said.

Kira:  Yeah. And I think the two of us have figured out our unique focuses too. And what you’re focused on is some times different than what I’m focused on and how that becomes more and more important as you build a team, if you’re listening and you build a team so everybody has their own unique areas of focus, which we’ve been working on too. Okay. Any other tips for focus? I feel like that’s it. That’s all we got.

Rob:  Yeah. I mean, we’ve talked a lot about it. So listen to the podcast we did with Dave Rowell, check out the training he did in the underground. It’s an amazingly good training and I’m sure we’ll keep talking about it because it’s such an important part of getting things done for all of our businesses.

Kira:  Okay. So I’m curious, Rob, what motivates you? You’ve been doing this copywriting thing for a while, we’ve been building the Copywriter Club for a while, like going on five years. So what motivates you when things might start to feel less exciting or feel like work or it’s more of the day to day maintenance growth, what motivates you to feel energized about what you’re doing as an entrepreneur and a copywriter?

Rob:  Yeah. So I think one of the things that keeps me motivated is the fact that I just really like what we’re doing, what we’re building together. And so I don’t wake up Monday morning thinking, oh, I’ve got to find the energy to do what we’re going to do this week. I’m actually excited about the kinds of work that we do and particularly what we do together. And so I’m not sure that I need a whole lot of motivation around that. I mean, obviously, I want to make money to pay the mortgage and to afford things that I want in my life or whatever so there’s that kind of motivation, but I think the ultimate motivation is finding and doing something that you love.

And when I find myself really unmotivated by work, it’s because I’m working with a client that I don’t actually love the product, or I’m not excited about writing the web pages for them or whatever. And so it’s usually related to how much I actually love the thing that I’m doing. And so the more I focus on the things that I love, the things that I’m good at, the zone of genius type stuff, the more I find that I actually don’t need to worry too much about motivation, I stay pretty motivated. How about you?

Kira:  For me, I think it’s continuing to find interests outside of what we do really helps me actually motivate and feel excited about what we do as copywriters and marketers and as community builders and helping grow this community. When I read a wide range of books when I’m just immersed in other areas of life that I’m passionate about and interested in learning and seeking, it actually really helps me then jump back into what we’re doing in the Copywriter Club and come up with new ideas and feel really excited about different ways we could pursue what we’re doing, or just feel excited about working in general. But if I don’t have those outside influences… And it doesn’t have to be a hobby, it could just be reading about something else I’m interested in or watching some documentary, whatever it is, then I start to kind of doll out and feel like I’m not adding some new… I’m not seeking enough.

So I guess when I’m seeking elsewhere and learning, then I bring that enthusiasm and energy to what we’re doing with the Copyright Cub and what I’m doing with my copywriting business. So I’ve noticed that trend and if I fall off, everything kind of feels dollar. But I think as far as like the Copywriter Club, I am excited about new challenges. Most days when it’s like, we know there’s this problem, and we need to fix it, or we need to make it better or improve it, I get really excited about those challenges of like, how can we take this and turn it into that? Or how can we make this a 100 times better? And it’s daunting. And sometimes I get overwhelmed by it, but other days, it really motivates me, like how do we solve these big problems in our own business and how do we help other copywriters solve the problems?

So I think the problem solving aspect always keeps me motivated. So I think that’s a big part of it. The team aspect too, that’s also feels like it’s always evolving. How do we grow a team? How do we get people excited and figure out how we can all work towards the same mission. So that still feels new and exciting to me as well. But I think in combination, all of that lights me up and feels fun. And you’re right, I don’t dread Mondays. Like I enjoy any time I have with team members, with you. I don’t dread Zoom calls, I enjoy the people we work with. I love the people we work with, the copywriters we work with so that all feels easy and fun.

Rob:  Yep. I agree. Liking what you do I think is the biggest key to being motivated.

Kira:  And if you aren’t liking it and that can happen, you can like and love what you do and it could be a new week and something changes or you change and you don’t like it as much or something feels off and so I think that’s okay too. And sometimes it’s just an off week or day, and sometimes it’s a reminder to look at what you’re doing and see how you can change it to improve it. Maybe you just need to work with new clients. Maybe the clients you focused on are not the right ones, or you need to find a new niche or it’s the structure of your business that no longer works for you. And so I think that’s an important part so you don’t blame yourself and wonder why am I not motivated? Why am I not excited about this? I was a year ago. It’s okay if the business changes or you change and we have the power to transform our businesses to fit what we want when we want it.

Rob:  Well, and we see that happen with a lot of copywriters. I mean, you and I have done that. Like your business does evolve over time and maybe you start out as a copywriter and you’re perfectly happy writing web pages and you’re figuring out the copywriting thing and then at some point you want to maybe be more strategic about where you’re doing or you want to be more of a consultant in helping to advise your clients the kinds of marketing that they should be doing and as your skills grow, and as your knowledge base grows, your expertise, it’s only fair that you’re able to incorporate all of that stuff into the kind of work that you’re doing. And so your business is going to evolve. And like you’re saying, if you’ve sort of found that place where you’re not motivated anymore, maybe it’s because you’re ready to evolve and you just haven’t stepped up into whatever that new thing is.

Kira:  Yeah. And that’s okay. And it may be a different form of copywriting, or it may be that you want to do something else other than copywriting. And that’s also okay. I think it’s also okay to expand beyond copywriting.

Rob:  Yeah. I mean, it’s funny that you say that because oftentimes… Well, not that often, but maybe one out of 20 or one out of 10 people who joined the copywriter think tank, at some point they figure out it’s like, I’m not sure I actually want to do the copywriting part of this. I really like the strategy part, I really like the brand part, I really like the mindset part and they kind of focus. So copywriting becomes this tool for this thing that they want to do that’s bigger than what they have before. And I think that’s the beauty of things like the think tank or other masterminds is it helps you evolve into the kind of business that serves your life better.

Kira:  Yeah. I love the fact that if the Copywriter Club were to shut down tomorrow, having the skill of copywriting, we can take that wherever we go. We can take that to other companies. We could just fall back on that. It’s a skill set that if you continue to learn and focus on it, you’ll always, I mean, mostly be okay and have that business to fall back on, which makes me feel safe at least. And it’s comforting.

Rob:  Yeah.

Kira:  Okay. Next question. So this actually links to the previous question about what motivates you. I’m just wondering how you think about that evolution, right? And maybe we’ve already addressed it, but as you evolve as a human and things change in your life like for you you have children who are graduating and moving away, as things change, how does that affect the way that you build your business or think about your business? How do you approach change in business and life when we know that neither are static.

Rob:  Yeah. Well, and at the risk of repeating what we talked about the last question, I do think that my approach has definitely changed as I’ve gotten older. I used to be more about taking the project, getting the work done, making the money. I think I’ve shifted more into like trying to master a skill set, being more strategic with how I approach my clients, working with better clients, clients that are doing really interesting things. And I’m also looking at my business as a way of creating wealth as opposed to just a paycheck because, I mean, I’m still 20 years away, maybe longer from retiring, but when that happens, when I decide I want to walk away or whatever, I’d like to make sure that I don’t have to, no offense to anybody who decides to do this, but I don’t want to be a greeter at Walmart or I don’t want to have to be doing something that doesn’t light me up just in order to pay the bills or whatever.

If I were to choose to do that, I hope it’s because that’s something that interests me. I want to meet people or whatever. And so I think business does change over time and we’re thinking about how should our approach to what we’re building and what we’re doing change as we move on. How about you? I mean, you’re at a kind of a different life stage but I’m thinking-

Kira:  I’m retiring in five years.

Rob:  Yeah. There you go.

Kira:  I don’t know if you’re talking about 20 years.

Rob:  That’s what’s I’m talking about. That’s what I’m talking about, different life stage. You’re going to be way ahead of me in retiring.

Kira:  You can come to my retirement party.

Rob:  I’ve got your watch ready to give to you. Thank you for your service.

Kira:  Yeah. So I think part of it is, and we already mentioned this, but pulling in those outside influences to shape what you’re doing as a copywriter or as a marketer. So because I live in DC and things have been shut down for the past year, I have missed out… Like part of the reason I love cities is because you can meet so many people and go to networking events. And especially in a city that’s as social as DC, I can’t wait to go out and meet people, especially in this political environment where I feel like there aren’t as many freelance copywriters here, it’s like people who are heavily in to this world of politics and that excites me.

Kira:  So I think for me it’s pulling in that outside influence based of where I live right now and meeting with people that maybe have very different experiences from me and work in a very different industry and learning like maybe my next niche is not course creators who are launching, maybe it’s working with different candidates who are running a campaign where I can come in and work with them as a communications director and take on a new type of project.

Like talk about mastery and learning for me, it’s like figuring out where else I can take my copywriting skills so that I’m learning and I feel excited and I’m also taking advantage of what’s around me and what hasn’t been around me over the last year. So stuff like that really excites me where I can think about what else can I do with copywriting, right? What else can I do with these skills that I have that feels really new and exciting?

So part of it’s related to that and then the other part, like what you’re talking about around wealth and thinking about business in a bigger way as far as like what assets are we creating? So like what assets are we building with the Copywriter Club and how can that transform our careers to whether it’s preparing for retirement or just thinking about other assets we could create within the Copywriter Club or beyond. So I think that that piece of it is really important too. So I’m glad that you covered that. I feel like we could go a lot deeper on wealth and how to build wealth in a future episode and talk about how we’re thinking about that.

Rob:  Yeah. I agree. There’s lots to be said about wealth. And I think this is something that I haven’t heard a lot of other copywriters talk about, but when we create copy, we are creating assets. And they’re assets just like machinery that can be used over and over to generate wealth just as you would in a factory or anything else. And so whether you’re creating assets for your clients or you’re creating them for your own business, it’s an important thing to remember that we’re doing something that any copywriter can apply to their own business, what assets are you creating that will generate wealth for you moving forward.

Kira:  Yes. And this is what we do as copywriters. So it’s great to think about all the other assets we can create in other industries too and think beyond the bubble that we’re in. Okay. So I think that covers how we evolve and feel excited and motivated. So let’s move on to trends or patterns we’ve noticed in the copywriting space. If you have noticed any, Rob, I know we’ve covered this before, but is there anything new as of May, 2021 that you feel like is worth noting?

Rob:  I don’t know that it’s new as of May, 2021, but I have seen really a big intensification of focus on unethical marketing, more and more people calling their things ethical this or ethical that or really calling out people who are doing things unethically. I do think sometimes people are called out for things that are ethical or maybe just not being applied right. There’s like this really wide gray space and it’s really easy to accuse people of doing things that you maybe feel unethical from one side, but maybe not from the other. And so I do think we need to be a little bit careful of that, but a lot of people are talking about marketing, how does it need to change in order to support people’s decision-making to not be manipulative. And again, I do think that sometimes we criticize things for being manipulative that aren’t.

For whatever reason, everybody’s entitled to bring their own opinions to this discussion. I think it’s a healthy discussion to have, and it’s a good thing that is happening more and more. But I think that’s maybe the one big trend that I see happening in our space. Other than that, the same principles in copywriting and persuasion that have been working for years are still working today. Maybe we apply them slightly differently, but a lot of that human being stuff is never going to change. How about you, any trends jump out at you?

Kira:  I think a lot more copywriters are creating their own shops with their own products and using those products to bring in new customers and to kind of bring them into their extension model, which I think is really exciting. I love the idea of product creation. I know that’s something that we’re working on with a bunch of different think tank members right now and it’s a great way to use our skillset as copywriters which is innovation, creativity and to create something that is our own asset and our own IP that we can hang on to. And so I think that’s been big. Also transitioning, this has been happening over time, but away from courses that are more typical courses to more of done with you programs where there’s more accountability built into it, there are more milestones to help with achievement.

I think we’ve already talked to death about how courses are so unsuccessful overall, so it’s been really cool to see that shift in the way that so many of us are working with our clients to help them, and also with our own programs to help get people across the finish line and to figure out how we can do it better. So I love that that’s such a big part of what we focus on in TCC, that copywriters are focusing on their own programs and helping their clients do it too. And I think this is an opportunity for more offers for copywriters to help their clients with retention and with success in their courses and their programs. So that’s been a big change.

Rob:  And going along with that, I think a lot of courses are getting shorter. They’re more intense. They’re maybe more focused on solving one problem. So there are fewer and fewer everything you need to know about copywriting or everything you need to know about marketing and more how do you do this one thing type courses which is I think a really positive thing because if you’re struggling with proposals, you don’t need an entire course on setting up a copywriting business. You can just go and get that training on proposals. And so as we focus in on more of those kinds of things, and it’s not just us and the Copywriter Club that are doing that, it really helps people solve their problems.

Kira:  Yeah. And such a great way for you to possibly help your client if you know that they’re struggling. Like they have great content, maybe they’ve had some success with their programs previously, but they’re struggling to get people across that finish line, so you can come in, not just as a copywriter, but as a copywriter and problem solver and consultant and give them expertise and value and ideas that they can implement as a team. So I think there’s a lot more opportunity for us to help there.

Rob:  I agree.

Kira:  The other one I’d add is just communities. I know we’re focused on communities. It’s a big part of what we do with the Copywriter club, but it’s been fun to see more communities pop up and more of an emphasis around community development and growth. And also I think observe in this space how experts like on a hedsel have helped elevate community and then the way that we think about community and what we can do with community. And it’s not just throwing a bunch of people into a Facebook group, it’s thinking beyond that. And so I think that we’ll continue to grow as communities help support these programs and these businesses. I think they’re going to be given a lot more attention and we’re going to challenge the way that we think about what’s possible in an online community that meets mostly online. So I think that’s exciting too.

Rob:  Awesome. I agree. Okay. I think we have some lightning round questions. This is something… I guess we’ve done a couple of lightning round type things before.

Kira:  Maybe we should start with the question that you shared, what are we reading right now?

Rob:  Yeah. What are you reading right now?

Kira:  And I would love to share. I’ve got my pile, so I’m going to share it. All right. So I’m reading the 21 Lessons for the 21st Century by Yuval Noah Harari. I feel like this book is satisfying the inner seeker in me that just wants to understand the world and all the conflict. We’re all connectors of ideas and concepts so just trying to constantly connect ideas and solve problems in my head that aren’t easy to solve. And so this book has helped me think through it in a more focused way.

Rob:  Interesting. I’m going to have to add that to my list. It reminds me of a book I read last year called Factfulness, which is really about understanding the real facts and how crazy some of our misunderstandings are. But yeah, I’m going to add that to my list.

Kira:  This book is great if you are into futurism and just like what’s happening and should I geek out on like predictions that are research backed. So that’s one of them. Of course, The Highly Sensitive Person, Rob, have you read that book?

Rob:  I have not.

Kira:  Okay.

Rob:  I have a feeling I might be too insensitive to actually read that book, I don’t know.

Kira:  As I asked you that question I was like, I don’t think this is your book.

Rob:  That’s not my kind of book.

Kira:  By Elaine Aron. I know I get so obnoxious and sometimes caring about people who are highly sensitive it’s serious like, come on, we’re tired of hearing about how you’re so sensitive to the world and you can’t handle anything, but it’s also a good book if you know that you tend to be more sensitive, if you know like my children are more sensitive. I am about halfway through, but it’s just been helpful to learn more. And again, it’s all about self-awareness. And then I’ll just share one more. So Run to Win by the president of Emily’s list, Stephanie Schriock. And so this is all about campaigning. And so like I mentioned, I’m trying to get involved kind of in the more the DC scene and volunteer and support different campaigns. And so my head is in the space of just like, how does what we do as copywriters translate to political campaigns.

And I know it does, but I just have to kind of put the pieces together to connect the dots. And so that’s another space I’m interested. And the last book I will share is one that our babysitter shared with me because I think, well, I need more fiction in my life. So it’s called The Vanishing Half. It’s a top bestseller book right now by Brit Bennett. So I’m just getting into that because I have a really hard time reading fiction. So I’m trying to do it and expand.

Rob:  Nice.

Kira:  What are you reading?

Rob:  That’s a good list. So a couple of books that I’m reading. So one of our mentors sent us this book by Anthony Sullivan. He’s a pitch guy at Home Shopping Network and I think was best friends with Billy Mays, the OxiClean guy, I think he pitches for OxiClean now. It’s called You Get What You Pitch For. It’s really a good book. It’s about sales, but it’s about more than sales. It’s really about preparing the space so that your message can be heard. And it’s really good. It’s actually a really good match for another book that I started listening to this morning called The Catalyst by Jonah Berger, which is all about change and how do you respond to reactants. And there’s five ways that when somebody is trying to convince us of something or persuade us of something that we react with resistance or inertia or distance, and it’s really all about overcoming that. And those two books together pair really well.

It got me thinking about a couple of things and may actually spur the idea for another newsletter in the Underground. So I’m liking those both. Some fiction that I’ve been reading recently, an author that I used to read when I was in my 20s and hadn’t picked up in a long time and a friend reached out and said, “Hey, do you remember this author?” And so I picked up one book that I’d read of his before, and then another his name is Julian Barnes. His book, A History of the World in 10 and a Half Chapters, is funny and really well-written.

Kira:  That sound great.

Rob:  The final chapter is all about a guy who goes to heaven and it’s hilarious in like there’s kind of this new heaven and old heaven and how things used to be. And it’s really funny and very… I mean, it’s witty, it’s sarcastic, it’s a lot of fun to read. And then maybe one last one that I’ll mention is one that Drisha Hawk mentioned to us, and it’s The Road Less Stupid, which I’ve had sitting on my desk since she recommended that to us. And I’ve started thumbing through that because I think I told her at the time I could use a lot less stupid in my life and if this book helps me get there and so that’s also on my shelf and hopefully will be read the next week or so.

Kira:  I want to read that one and I forgot she mentioned that. Those sound good. I feel like we should trade books. You should send me your books when you’re done with them so I can read them.

Rob:  Yeah. I’m going to have to listen to the campaign book. I actually took like Candidate Training 20 years ago when I was going to run for office and that didn’t happen but someday maybe.

Kira:  Yeah. I’m excited about that idea of just getting into new space and learning. I struggle with fiction. I really need help getting into fiction. Like I just don’t know what my problem is why I can’t get into it. So if anybody has advice, tips, let me know.

Rob:  Yeah. You might enjoy some of Julian Barnes’ books. They’re really good, really good.

Kira:  Okay. All right. Cool. So also you had asked, what are we listening to? What are we listening to podcast wise, music wise, what’s in our earbuds?

Rob:  Yeah. So for me most of what I listen to as I’m sitting here in my office or whatever, and so I’ve got a couple of listen to lists on Pandora that I use, one is called Federico Abuela or Abuelle list. I actually heard Tim Ferris refer to that as something he listened to when he was writing a couple of his books. And so I just found it on Pandora and I love it. It’s the perfect… If there’s words, most of it’s like in Brazilian. Yeah. Portuguese. Yeah, Rob, you need to read more and learn some stuff. It’s in Portuguese but it’s the kind of stuff that I can kind of listen to in the background. It’s got a nice beat. It’s kind of keeps me motivated and going.

There’s another playlist that I listen to on Pandora, just Frank Morgan Radio. It’s kind of this 60, 70s jazz, kind of old fashioned jazz club, I really dig it. And so that’s kind of what’s always going on unless I’m on my bike and then I have some very upbeat music that I’ll throw on when I’m on my bike. But other than that, it’s pretty light jazz. How about you, what are you listening to?

Kira:  Well, we’re going to link to that. I want to listen to all of that. I mean, I have a song. I’ve just chosen one song that I listen to on repeat. So it’s by Iron and Wine called Flightless Bird, American Mouth and I just can’t get tired of it. I just play it over and over again. And I never tire of it. It’s in the Twilight series, which my kids are really into right now. So that’s why it kind of popped up recently when we started binging Twilight. Podcast wise, I mean, I know we’ve mentioned it in our Saturday email, the Smartless Podcast. I really enjoy that podcast and the back and forth and rapport of the three hosts. I think it’s really hard to have a three host show and they do it really only, and they bring in a guest, so four people, but it just works.

The chemistry is there, the sense of humor, they’re just so funny to me and I love Jason Bateman and a crush on Jason Bateman. So I do enjoy all the comedians they bring in and a lot of writers that they bring into the show to talk about what happens behind the scenes of comedy and these shows that we all know with the writers. And so that’s a big one. And because you mentioned Tim Ferris, if I look at what I’m listening to like this past weekend, it was getting back to Tim Ferriss and just realizing he really is a great interviewer. If we’re talking about how do we improve as podcast hosts, it’s listening to podcast hosts who are top of their game as interviewers. And I think for me, he’s really mastered that art of interviewing and so I learned a lot from him as far as interviewing goes.

But I really appreciated his recent show with Hamilton from Hamilton’s Pharmacopeia. He has a show and so it was just Tim’s interview with Hamilton was all about different psychedelics and different drugs and the chemistry behind it and the science behind it. And it’s just fascinating. And it makes me want to go back to school and become a chemist. And so hearing any expert geek out on a topic that is just not familiar to me is just really fun. And I can just do that while I’m painting our house. So that’s what I did this past weekend. So maybe that’s it for podcasts. There are a bunch of other ones, but those are the ones I listened to in the last two days.

Rob:  Awesome. So as usual, we’re really bad at these lightning round type questions. Those are really long answers to some short questions, but maybe we can do better with your list.

Kira:  All right. Lightning round questions. Rob, would you ever eat ice cream with your hands?

Rob:  I won’t say no. I mean, I have before like when the ice cream fallen off of the stick or off of the cone or whatever and had it in my hand but if you’re just scooping out a scoop into my hand, I’d probably say no unless it’s really, really good ice cream. What about you?

Kira:  No, I will not do it ever.

Rob:  I don’t believe that. I’m going to get you some ice cream.

Kira:  I will never do that. If a person you’ve met only once before asked you to pack a bag and go on a fun and spontaneous adventure, would you go?

Rob:  Yes, I would. I would do that. I mean, obviously there may be some rules involved, but yeah, I would do that. What about you?

Kira:  I would definitely do that. That sounds like so much fun. I want to meet someone just to do this. I feel like this is the need of adventure right now. After the past year I’ve stayed in, I’m like any adventure sounds great. I’ll go with a stranger. I don’t care. That sounds like fun. And if you think about it, when you and I… Is this correct? You and I had only met once in-person before we became business partners, I guess that was technically twice. It was on the second meeting. And then it become-

Rob:  Correct.

Kira:  But we had only met in-person twice at that point and we went on-

Rob:  Yeah. We’re up for adventure, so yeah.

Kira:  Yes. This is us, we’re so adventurous. Okay. When was the last time you had a good laugh?

Rob:  This past weekend with my daughter watching Impractical Jokers. And I don’t know if you’ve ever seen that show, but oh my gosh, it’s 30 minutes of cringing and laughing and my daughter has this really out loud… She literally guffaws when things are funny. So it’s pretty hilarious. How about you?

Kira:  I want to hear her laugh. I think recently it’s been with my son, with Henry, he’s six now, and he is just so funny to me and he’s so animated now and he’s learned how to dance and shake his hips and just like he’s almost learned how to flirt. So he is so funny with… He just knows how to make me laugh and so it’s been really fun just to see him grow up a little bit and become this new version of Henry that is really entertaining and funny. So I’ve been enjoying that. Okay. What’s your most embarrassing story from childhood?

Rob:  I guess I don’t know that this is really the most embarrassing. This is the one that I still think about. So 40 years later, maybe it had some kind of mental impact on me, but my grandmother gave me a shirt for my birthday or whatever that I loved. It was like this English Beefeater soldier or whatever. And I loved it so much that I wore it to school every day for two weeks. And I remember… I mean, this was like fifth grade I think, fourth or fifth grade. And I remember one of the cool kids coming up to me and making fun of me for wearing the same shirt to school. And I still think of that not all that much, but it’s probably one of those things that makes me have to shower every day, right? Like there’s some mental thing that’s confronted. So yeah, that’s probably the most embarrassing from my end.

Kira:  Did you stop wearing it at that point?

Rob:  I probably stopped wearing it 12 days in a row. I still liked the shirt. So I think I let my mom wash it after that but-

Kira:  I want to see the shirt.

Rob:  … I actually still wear it every day, Kira. I’ve got it on underneath my shirt.

Kira:  But that still makes sense though like your fashion vibe is kind of like consistency, right? Like it’s having a similar looking shirt.

Rob:  Something like that.

Kira:  So it’s like your style.

Rob:  It works for me. How about you, what embarrassing thing happened to you as a kid?

Kira:  I think I’ve already shared it on their show. I feel like I share it often, but it was, I actually… Oh my God, in fourth grade I peed my pants, which doesn’t sound bad, but like fourth grade you’re evolved. It’s not like you’re a little kindergartner, you are evolved. And I was sitting across from my crush, this guy named Steve.

Rob:  It’s always Steve.

Kira:  It didn’t work out and I blacked out. I don’t remember anything from it. And it was because I was such like a goody-goody. My teacher was very strict about going to the bathroom and I was such a people pleaser and just so afraid to get into trouble. Even though I was such a good kid, I would never have gotten in trouble if I had asked her to use the restroom, but I just didn’t want to ask her because she intimidated me. So I held it and held it and held it until I couldn’t hold it. And then I blacked out and I don’t remember anything else that happened until I was in the nurse’s office. And then nobody ever mentioned it to me, which is also weird. I don’t know if the teacher told them not to mention it, it was like it never even happened, which made it more bizarre. So I don’t know. Maybe I should talk to a therapist about this but it’s just like-

Rob:  Both of us have some therapy in our future I can see.

Kira:  Yes. But it’s so bizarre now because Harper is going into fourth grade. And so just to see her age and see how evolved she is, I was like, oh, wow, that’s when it happened to me, make sure you go to the bathroom when you need to. But yeah, I still think about it. I still think about it and cringe. I mean, I’m not past the cringe stage of it, which I should be, it’s still makes me cringe. Okay.

Rob:  Next question. Who’s your favorite celebrity?

Kira:  Who’s yours? I don’t think I know.

Rob:  I don’t know that I have a favorite, but I like Jeff Goldblum, Scarlett Johannson, Ryan Reynolds. Those are all kind of like the-

Kira:  Like some superheroes.

Rob:  Yeah. Some of them. I mean I guess all of those guys have played parts in Marvel movies for sure. I tend to like actors and actresses that are sort of in TV shows or whatever, but they don’t ever really become known. And it’s just like, oh, I really like that actress. Like we’ve just been watching Endeavor, which is a masterpiece theater series and Sarah Vickers plays one of the roles and I’ve seen her in Shetland and in a couple of other things, I’m like, she’s such a really good actress or Sean Evans who plays the lead, right? Like there are just so many good character actors. I tend to like to watch those. I’m not sure that I have a lot of favorites, but if I had to choose favorites, it’d something like those three. What about you?

Kira:  I mean similar, I can name so many it depends on the day and the mood, but Anthony Hopkins is a classic. I love some Anthony, Cate Blanchett, I just crush on her. She’s elegant, adds so much to any role, any role, any movie with her. And then I know I already mentioned him but Jason Bateman.

Rob:  Yeah. Your crush.

Kira:  I just really… It’s not even a crush, I feel like we would be good friends. I feel like to me he represents this self-deprecating sense of humor. He can make fun of himself on the podcast. He’s so smart and witty and just pulls out these one-liners and so yeah, Jason Bateman. I’m sure it will change. I’ll probably grow out of this phase but-

Rob:  I doubt it.

Kira:  … I want to become friends with him. Okay. I think that covers our favorite celebrities. Okay. So out of the two of us, who would survive longer, stay alive longer in a zombie apocalypse? I don’t know the answer. I feel like this is not easy.

Rob:  I think if it comes down to our running ability, I think you’re going to stay alive. If it comes down to anything else, I think I’ll outlive you.

Kira:  Oh my gosh.

Rob:  You can outrun me, but if it comes to-

Kira:  I thought you were complimenting me and then that’s not a compliment.

Rob:  But the running part is for sure. Yeah.

Kira:  Everything else, I’m going to beat you, but in running you got me. I think you’re right running I could… Well, not right now while pregnant, you would definitely beat me, but let me get back into shape, post delivery and then I’m zombie ready, but I don’t know. We’ll have to see how it plays out with the next apocalypse.

Rob:  I mean, I’m like five minutes from the mountains. Like I can get away. You’re in the middle of a city.

Kira:  Oh, if you pull in where we’re living.

Rob:  I mean, I’ve got a little food storage in the basement, so I’d be okay for a couple of months.

Kira:  For sure. Okay.

Rob:  Yeah. I think zombie apocalypse, for your sake, I’m hoping it doesn’t come down to that because you’ll be die first.

Kira:  But have you watched enough zombie movies? I feel like I’ve watched more zombie movies than you, so I would know what to do.

Rob:  That’s probably true. I mean, Shaun With the Dead, I’ve watched a couple. Yeah. We’re going to have to revisit this question in a couple of weeks. I’m going to stop there.

Kira:  Okay. I am too. Okay. So if someone asked you to go to the website you most frequently visit, would you be happy with your answer or embarrassed by your answer?

Rob:  I mean, I don’t really have an embarrassing answer. It’s probably Facebook because we spend so much like in our groups or whatever. So I guess I wouldn’t be embarrassed necessarily, but I’m not sure I’m proud of that either.

Kira:  Yeah. I feel like mine is the New York Times website, which is like kind of obnoxious and get out of your own bubble, but I visit that all the time next to Facebook. So those are probably the two. Every once and a while I go visit the People Magazine site if I just need to do some brainless searching and unwind at the end of the day, I might just-

Rob:  Nothing embarrassing about that.

Kira:  I do a little People Action. Okay. So we have pretty good solid… I’m shocked you said nothing sketchy.
Not that we would share that anyway. So if you were arrested with no explanation, what would your friends and family assume you had done?

Rob:  Probably murder my next door neighbor.

Kira:  God.

Rob:  That’s very specific. And I’m not going to go into any more details on that.

Kira:  My gosh.

Rob:  Yeah. Probably that.

Kira:  I was not expecting that answer.

Rob:  What would you be arrested for?

Kira:  I feel like we need more details on that because that was a very quick answer. Probably what I think they would say, they probably wouldn’t say, but I think it’s cool as if they were like, “Oh yeah, Kira got arrested because she was protesting at the Capitol. Like what a cool way to get arrested?” Would they actually say that? Probably not. But I would like them to say that because I think that’s cool probably better than murdering my neighbor.

Rob:  I think you’re probably better off there than me. We’ll get into that story at… I’m just not sure I want to put those details into the public record.

Kira:  Well, this is already public. So if anything happens to your neighbor-

Rob:  Oh, she’s murdered. Like if she dies of natural consequences-

Kira:  I know but if your neighbor is murdered, you will be the first target because of the show.

Rob:  Maybe. I probably would be anyway. She hates me. She hates me.

Kira:  Why does she hate you?

Rob:  All right. No we’re not get in to that.

Kira:  Okay. I think this is the last question.

Rob:  Last question. Yeah.

Kira:  What is something that is really popular now that in five years everyone will look back on it and be embarrassed by.

Rob:  I want to know what your answer is on this.

Kira:  I kind of wanted to come up with this really clever answer and it’s not clever, but I think fast fashion is one thing. Like just like cheap clothes that you buy and you wear once and you throw away, I think that was popular and now it’s out and people look down upon that. So I also said social media, like our obsession with social media and our obsession with showing up and showing this perfect photogenic lifestyle, I feel like that’s already fading, but I think people will look back and just be like, “What were you all thinking? Why were you trying to impress everyone with your photos on Instagram?” So I don’t know. That’s what came to mind first.

Rob:  So first thing that came to mind for me was… But this is a bad answer because it’s already happened once and people thought it was awful and they came back and it’s mom jeans. Like mom jeans are so popular and my daughters love them and I’m just like, they were awful the first time, they’re awful this time.

Kira:  Yeah. They’re really trendy right now.

Rob:  Yeah. Very trendy. So I think five years from now, not so much. And then this thing is absolutely true, talking about the pandemic. I mean, so tired of just… Obviously, we’ve been through it, but now there’s this thing where everybody’s talking about how hard the pandemic was on everybody. And I know it’s been hard. I know it’s been tragic, but it’s almost like everybody has to one-up each other on their pandemic story or their COVID story and I think five years from now, hopefully, we are done talking about pandemics and we can let it go.

Kira:  Hopefully.

Rob:  I hope it’s five months from now, but we’ll see.

Kira:  Yeah. But it is an interesting point as marketers, as copywriters to understand that shift and how quickly it happens, where a couple of months ago we were still in… I mean, so many people are still in the thick of it. So it depends on where you live, but a couple of months ago, it may have been appropriate to write that for your client for an email like, “Hey, if you’re struggling with this, you’re struggling…” And then how quickly it can shift, again, depending on who you’re speaking to and where they live and the message no longer resonates and as a marketer, we have to be able to know that it’s like they don’t want to hear that anymore. They’ve already moved on, get outside.

Rob:  It comes across as pandering now. And so again I think you’re a 100% right. And I’ll look forward to when that’s the reality.

Kira:  Yes. Okay. So that was it unless you want to add any other icebreaker questions.

Rob:  We’re good.

Kira:  Why do I keep saying icebreaker? Lightening round. Very different. Okay. So do we have any call to action or anything to unfold?

Rob:  Nope. Just I guess this is the way that we usually end our podcasts.

Kira:  Really?

Rob:  Yeah. I want thank Kira for being such a good guest today, thank Rob also. I suppose our intro music and outro music composed by… Well, outro by David Mutner and our intro by copywriter and songwriter, Addison Rice. And of course the things that we’ve mentioned, we’ll link to them in the show notes here. Check out the Think Tank, check out the Copywriter Underground, check out all of the things that we do at the Copywriter Club to help you out. That is the end of this episode. We will see you next week.