TCC Podcast #269: Public Relations for the Everyday Copywriter, Pitching Yourself with Authority, and Overcoming Rejection with Lindsey Walker - The Copywriter Club
TCC Podcast #269: Public Relations for the Everyday Copywriter, Pitching Yourself with Authority, and Overcoming Rejection with Lindsey Walker

Our guest for the 269th episode of The Copywriter Club podcast is Lindsey Walker. Lindsey is a public relations expert who owns Walker + Associates Media Group – a boutique public relations agency. Lindsey helps her clients position themselves for visibility and growth. If you want to increase your visibility and authority in the online space, tune into the episode to find actionable steps you can take to increase your impact and grow your brand.

  • Lindsey’s journey into the public relations world and starting a freelance business.
  • The roles that characterize a publicity firm and finding a team that will help you scale your business.
  • How to shift from solopreneur to leader and CEO. – What do you need to have in place?
  • Defining the type of CEO you want to become and how you can begin to look strategically at your business.
  • The process of working with someone in public relations. – What happens first?
  • How long it takes to expect results from PR.
  • How copywriters need to think about their business from a PR standpoint.
  • Are you the bottleneck in your business?
  • The 3 elements to DIY public relations in your business.
  • How to break through when you don’t have connections or people on the inside.
  • How to successfully pitch yourself and the biggest mistakes you need to avoid.
  • The different opportunities to pitch yourself depending on the season and time of year.
  • How to break into the PR space as a writer.
  • The difference between in-house and freelance PR writers.
  • The impact that mindset plays in public relations and how to put yourself out there.
  • When it’s a good idea to think about PR in your business.
  • What is the future of public relations?
  • What Lindsey learned from a life-threatening experience and how it applies to her business today.
  • Advice for business owners who are going through difficult situations.
  • How to handle rejection when sending pitches.
  • Will Kira and Rob become influencers?!

PR is an essential tool to grow your business and create a lasting impact. Be sure to grab your earbuds or check out the transcript below.

The people and stuff we mentioned on the show:

Kira’s website
Rob’s website
The Copywriter Club Facebook Group
The Copywriter Underground
The Copywriter Club Accelerator waitlist 
Lindsey’s website
Mai-kee’s website
Episode 229 with Selena Soo
Episode 151 with Patsy Kenney
Episode 150 with Brigitte Lyons
Episode 152 with Mai-kee 


Full Transcript:

Rob:  One of the most important activities that you do as a copywriting business owner is marketing, and that can take a lot of forms, everything from cold pitching to social media, and almost literally 100 other activities. Continually marketing yourself and your business is the thing that attracts clients to your door. If you want to succeed long term as a copywriter, you can’t ignore this activity. Today’s guest on The Copywriter Club Podcast is publicist and PR expert, Lindsey Walker. She knows a thing or two about attracting attention to your business. We met Lindsey when she reached out to pitch a guest for our podcast, and while that particular person wasn’t a fit, when we heard Lindsey’s story, we knew that she would be. Stick around to hear what she shared about getting people to pay attention to what you are doing in your business. But before we get to all of that, let me introduce my guest host for this episode, Mai-kee Tsang. Hey, Mai-kee.

Mai-kee:  Hey, Rob. Lovely to be here. I’m not Kira, but she’s here with us in spirit.

Rob:  Nope. Kira was with us on the initial interview. Yeah, it’s just you and me to talk about all of that.

Mai-kee:  Exciting stuff.

Rob:  Yeah. If you’ve been listening to the podcast for a while, you’ll remember that Mai-kee shared how she pitched 101 podcast in 30 days way back on episode 152. It’s a really good episode. I’ll remind you again at the end to listen to it, but make a mental note because you’re definitely going to want to check that out. Then one more thing before we jump into our interview, this podcast is sponsored by The Copywriter Accelerator. That’s our program for copywriters who want to lay a solid foundation under their business and get all of the pieces lined up for success in the coming new year.

It runs for 16 weeks, covers everything from business mindset and figuring out your X factor and your unique mechanism to creating products and pricing and services and working with clients and all of those things, as well as marketing yourself and attracting the right clients into your business. Do yourself a favor and visit and get yourself on the wait list right now. We’ll be opening the doors again in just a few weeks. Okay. Let’s hear from Lindsey and how she got her start as a publicist and a PR expert.

Lindsey:  I have always loved all things communications. I grew up with my grandmother. She would always have the news turned on on someone’s news station. I fell in love with journalism. I’ve always written in my journal poetry, just things like that. Initially, I thought that I was going to be a writer. But in my senior year of high school, I got the opportunity to participate in this program called the Minority Journalism Workshop, and I will never forget it because it was so instrumental in just where I am today. We had the opportunity to pick between careers and I had just finished reading this fiction book and the lady was an account executive in the book.

She was a publicist, and so I was like, “You know what? It sounds interesting. Let me see what this is about.” Oh my gosh. So awesome. I got a chance to learn so many things about publicity and how to work with journalism, put together releases and press conferences and all of those things. I majored in it in college. I did a ton of internships and I just started my own business as a freelancer once I graduated because I wasn’t able to find a position back at home. But that’s pretty much how I got started in the industry.

Rob:  Tell us a little bit more about that, what you were doing as a freelancer and basically just what it was that you were doing to find places to publish, to do your work, all that kind of stuff.

Lindsey:  Yeah. What’s so interesting is that I landed my first three clients. I landed two of them from Twitter, I landed another one from LinkedIn. I just put it out there that, “Hey, I’m a freelancer.” I used my portfolio from the internships that I’ve done and people, they gave me an opportunity, they gave me a chance, and so I was able to get them placements. I used those first freelance clients to buy my LLC and to have my company name, which at the time we were PR Mentality. Then it just grew from there with getting more retainer clients the more that I got results. I was also connecting with other people in the industry so that they could mentor me, and I really, really just went all in with making sure that I serviced the clients that I had very well so that we could grow.

Rob:  I know this is journalism, and we usually talk about copy, ad copy, marketing copy, that kind of thing. But tell us the kinds of things that you were writing and where you were publishing.

Lindsey:  Yeah. For me, I’m on the opposite side of the journalism table. I write the media pitches and then the editors will decide if they want to write and do the story. I target outlets like the New York Times, CBS This Morning, Fox, Refinery29, Essence, Black Enterprise, those types of publications based upon what my client’s overall message is and what their overall goals are, and I’m able to put together and package a pitch that I know that the editors will be interested in. That’s how I begin to identify those targets, the editors, the writers, and then based upon what they’ve been covering, what they’ve been publishing, I’ll reach out to them to garner their interest.

Kira:  Lindsey, let’s talk about what your business looks like today, structurally. How many clients do you typically work with? Are they mostly retainers and how many team members do you have?

Lindsey:  Yes. Our clients mostly are on a retainer basis. Right now we’re taking between eight to 10 clients on roster. On the team, we just hired someone. I think now we’re up to a team of four, four or five. No, it’s four, including me. Okay. We have two account executives which help me to work with the accounts and help me to manage who we’re pitching to and what the status of things are. We have a virtual assistant that really helps handle the backend of getting our email sequences and our marketing together. Then I’m now testing out the role of actually bringing on a copywriter to have someone to help us build out those email sequences as well. Those are the roles that we have.

Rob:  Lindsey, as you’ve grown your business, how did you step through who was the first hire, who was the next hire? How did you identify what the need was and then find the people to bring them into your business?

Lindsey:  Yeah, that’s a great question. I think it’s important to note I’ve been in business for nine years, and eight out of those nine years, really about seven and a half out of those nine years, I was a solopreneur. I did all the things myself and I got to a point where I figured out I just cannot do and be all things and do and be them well. Right? One of the first positions I created a role for was virtual assistant because I’m like, “If I could just get someone to handle my copy, my content for social media, handling the backends of email marketing, then that would help me to focus a little bit more on client structures.”

Then as we started to get more clients, it was just like, “Okay, we need to hire out for the actual account executive positions so that we can take on more clients.” That was pretty much the thought process, but definitely a virtual assistant was the first hire that I made because I knew, number one, that I would be able to afford it, number two, I knew that if I got someone in that role to help me bridge certain gaps, then I could get things coordinated to be able to truly get the types of clients and marketing done that we needed so that I could hire out for those other positions.

Kira:  How has that transition been for you from being a solopreneur for seven or so years, and then starting to transition to building team and stepping into your own abilities as a CEO? How did you do it? I know it’s not always easy. Do you have any advice for copywriters who may be working on a similar transition?

Lindsey:  Yeah. Number one, make sure that you get your workflow in order. Take a step back in your business and truly figure out the pros and the cons. What do you love doing? What do you wish you could stop doing? What do you just absolutely hate? Right? Then based on that, make sure that you have a flow and a standard operating procedure for each and every one of those items that you were able to list out. For each and every one of the services that you provide, you should have a standard operating procedure for that particular role, for that particular service. For me, it’s definitely … Honestly, it’s challenging.

I learn something new every day. I’m learning how to be a better leader. I’m learning that leaders, you’re going to make mistakes. No CEO is perfect and you have to figure out what your flow is as a CEO. You have to figure out how you want to lead and you have to figure out what that looks like within your business. One of the other key things that I would say too is that it’s not a one-size-fit-all thing. There’s not truly a blueprint for figuring out how to be a successful CEO because that’s different. We’re all wired differently, right? Because we’re all wired differently, we’re going to have to figure out, “Okay, this may have worked last quarter. It may not be working so much this quarter,” and don’t get married to figuring out a work-life balance as much as you are just married to figuring out what’s working for you and how you can show up and be the best person that you can be.

Rob:  I’m really curious, Lindsey, about what a typical client engagement looks like for you. If I were going to come and say, “Lindsey, I want to be in the Wall Street Journal or I want to pitch podcast,” or whatever that is, how do you work with your clients in order to get them better PR?

Lindsey:  Yeah. One of the things that we do first is we may sure that we build out your strategy, the strategy, figuring out where we’re going, how we’re going to get there. What are your goals? Are you planning on an upcoming launch? Is your launch mapped out in a timely manner? Does it make sense for the media? What are some of your marketing messages? What are some things that are going to capture the media’s attention? Once we have that figured out, then we move to, okay, we know what the strategy is, so let’s figure out who are going to be the key players?

Who are going to be the key decision makers? And figuring out how we’re going to be able to utilize their platform and how we’re going to be able to connect and get you on this podcast or get you in Wall Street Journal. What’s going to be the key players and what’s the part of your key messaging that’s going to capture their attention? We start by making sure that we have the strategy, by making sure we’ve identified the people. Then we write out your media pitch. From there, once the client approves it, we go straight into beginning the outreach process, and typically it takes us … We ask that we engage with clients for about six months, minimum.

Kira:  For any copywriters listening who may want to move into a similar role and maybe start focusing on publicity and building a similar model, are you open to sharing just roughly how we should think about structuring payments on a monthly basis with our clients and just ballpark numbers of what that could look like? Then I know you just shared what you do for them, but over six months, how does that break down month to month as far as deliverables?

Lindsey:  Got you. Number one, when it comes to copywriters getting positioned for publicity, you have to remember you’re not just a copywriter, right? You don’t just perform this service, but you are the brand. Think about the clients that you service. Who’ve been some of your best case studies? What are some of the results that they’ve been able to garner through working with you? Maybe you help to write this stellar email copy sequence, you help them to map out their final, and they were able to have a 50K launch in three days. Right? That’s phenomenal.

You’re going to take that and say, “Okay, well, this is something I could pitch to Business Insider. This is something that I could pitch to Forbes. This is something that I think would be of interest to X, Y, Z podcasts.” You want to hone in on what makes you unique, who are the clients that you serve, how have you helped them, and then what are some industry trends that you’ve seen, whether it being the industries that you serve or what are some trends that you’ve seen as a copywriter? Really, really being intentional about paying attention to what you offer from the standpoint of what’s my brand, right?

From there, working with the publicist looks like … Engaging again, for our firm, it’s six months. The deliverables could be anywhere from starting out with month one, we develop out your press plan, your target list, your media pitch, we start pitching. You could get placed within the first 30 days. Then from there, it’s a matter of figuring out what’s working, what isn’t working, who’s interested? We typically like to set our goal for garnering about two to four placements a month at minimum for our clients, and that’s under a 2,500 a month retainer service.

Rob:  This is a good thing and a bad thing, but a lot of copywriters like to do everything ourselves. We DIY our entire business. But this seems like one area where it really makes sense to get some professional help. Maybe talk a little bit about that. Why some of us maybe should reach out beyond what we’re capable of doing on our own. Obviously, we can write pitches. We’re copywriters. But it seems like there’s a whole lot more beyond just writing the pitch in order to actually get a placement that you could or somebody like you could help us do.

Lindsey:  Yeah. The thing about that … I’m so glad that you mentioned the DIY thing because it’s real, right? With that, you want to look at it from a different mindset. You want to look at it from the standpoint of, am I being the bottleneck in my business? Am I being the bottleneck in my marketing strategy? Could I reach more people if I had a dedicated person to pitch for me in various podcasts? Right? Because you’re absolutely correct. You can write the pitch, right? You can write it and get it out there. But if you are spending time pitching yourself for podcasts and various interviews, are you working within your business to best serve your clients?

You have to think about it from that standpoint. Then also, even though you know how to write the pitch, do you know the strategy behind the pitch? Do you know why you should be featured in these publications? Do you know what they’re looking for or are you going to spend time in a DIY capacity trying to spend the wheel figuring out, okay, I’m pitching, I’m pitching, I’m pitching, and nothing’s sticking? Right? I think that that definitely should give a little bit more clarity in terms of why it’s necessary to have someone on your team in a publicity capacity, and/or to work with someone like myself in more of a coaching capacity so you can at least have someone guiding you through the process as you’re going through it.

Kira:  Yeah. I would much rather work with you, Lindsey, a professional on PR rather than DIYing it. But let’s say I have to DIY it for whatever reason. It’s hard to figure out the right message, and even as I’ve thought about The Copywriter Club and how we could possibly get PR, I just struggle with, well, what is the right message? What is the right hook? Are there any questions that we could think through that you’d recommend we think through as if we are DIYing it or just taking our first step towards gaining some publicity?

Lindsey:  Yeah, absolutely. You want to think about three main points. Number one, you want to think about who it is that you serve. You want to think about who you serve because that’s going to help you to identify who you should be reaching out to from a publicity standpoint. Number two, you want to figure out what inspires you to do what you do. Why did you start The Copywriter Club? Or why did you start X, Y, Z lot services, right? What inspired you? Because nine times out of 10, you started your business because you saw a need that was not quite being fulfilled in your industry, right? You want to think about who you serve, you want to think about why you started, and then number three, you want to think about the results that you have been able to get. What’s been the outcome of your services for your clients, and start there.

Rob:  How much of this is based on relationships that either we would have or you as a PR person would have? The reason I ask that is I know that you’ve helped get people in some of these really big publications. Think even CBS This Morning, those kinds of things. If I were to pitch CBS This Morning, even if I’ve got a great idea or whatever, I’m not even sure that anybody would open my email. How much of this is really the relationships that are already there, or can you break through? And if you can, what are the things that we need to do to break through so that people will start connecting with us?

Lindsey:  Absolutely, you definitely can break through. I’ve been blessed enough to be in a position to where I’ve built my relationships along the way. I didn’t have relationships starting out. I didn’t even have a relationship with CBS This Morning with the placement that you mentioned, but I knew that I had something that they were interested in. If you are trying to break through, from a media capacity and standpoint, number one, you need to make sure that you do your research. Know the writer, know the editor, know the reporter or the producer that you are pitching like the back of your hand.

Know what they like, know what they love, know what they’ve covered, know what they haven’t covered, know why they covered certain things. You have to do your research. Number two, you have to make sure that you’re following whatever their pitching protocols are. For instance, maybe they just like being pitched over Twitter or LinkedIn, or maybe they want you to email them and follow up right away with a phone call. You have to make sure that you are aware of their pitching protocols. Number three, you have to make sure that you’re being patient throughout the process because getting publicity takes time.

Kira:  Can we talk more about the time and what you mean by that? How much time? What does a follow-up look like? What is normal in that space?

Lindsey:  Normal is in the eye of the beholder. It depends. It varies according to what the media’s working through, what their deadline is. I always tell my clients, if you are releasing a book, a new product, a new service, you want to give yourself a three to six-month window to properly pitch and wait on the results. For instance, right now, journalists and editors are working on holiday gift guides. Honestly, if we’re talking about print publications, they’ve been working on Christmas and fall holiday gift guides since August. Right?

If you think about that, we’re now in October. You want to give yourself that proper lead time so that you can make sure that you’re maximizing opportunity. In terms of following up, I have a rule thumb. I’ll follow up with an editor three times, and then if they do not get back to me, I’ll move on to another publication or to another editor at that publication.

Rob:  You’ve given us a lot of great advice of things that we should be doing or we could be doing or ways that we should be thinking about our business if we’re interested in getting PR. Let’s talk about some of the mistakes that you see people making. Maybe it’s copywriters that you see making, but even from other businesses industries, what are the big pitfalls that keep people from making a splash when it comes to PR?

Lindsey:  Yeah. Number one, they’re not clear on the audience that they need to reach out to. They’re just reaching out to everybody. To CBS This Morning, to CNN, to Fox, to the New York Times without knowing who the appropriate person and audience is. It’s not enough to get a contact or to look at a contact us form and fill it out. You have to be it clear on your audience. Number two, another mistake that a lot of people make is they may send out a pitch one time to one publication and they’re like, “Okay, well, I’m waiting,” and they never follow up.

You always, always, always have to make sure that you are following up. Number three, the other mistake that people don’t make is they’re not paying attention to their subject line, they’re not paying attention to the different angles that they could be pitching to various publications because every publication is not going to be interested in the same email in the same way. You want to make sure that you are providing the writer with content that you know is going to be a no brainer for them.

Kira:  Okay. I love the idea of holiday gifts and really planning ahead and plugging into the calendar, the PR calendar. Are there other big events throughout the year beyond holidays that we should be aware of so we can plan ahead and plug into those occasions?

Lindsey:  Yeah, I would say any month within your industry. For those that may work strictly with HR clients or those that may work with corporate or those that may work with beauty and tech and all the things, each month you can pitch yourself for something. If April is Financial Tax Planning Month and all of that, you could pitch from the angle of how I’ve been able to save as a copywriter and make, I don’t know, six figures in the last five months of my business, or whatever the case is. You can look on … They are resources. If you go on Google and you Google National Day Calendar, a calendar will pop up that will tell you what the different holidays are within your industry.

Rob:  Let’s say that I’m listening to this interview, Lindsey, and I’m really interested in what you’re doing. I’m thinking I don’t want to write websites or I don’t want to write sales pages, but maybe I could write PR pitches or maybe I could help other people do this. What would be the best way to break into the industry? Should I look for jobs in-house or with agencies? Or is this something that I can just start freelance? What would your advice be to somebody just starting out?

Lindsey:  Absolutely, and that’s a great, great question because honestly, I’m playing around with the idea right now on if we want to just bring a copywriter on board and have them provide us with pitches per month. If I were to give advice, I would say, absolutely, you could go freelance or in-house. It just depends on how you want to structure things within your business model. But I would showcase the work that you’ve done so far. Any type of email copy, any type of website copy landing pages, if you have that, any type of sequences, you can use that to build out and to pitch a PR firm or a freelance publicist and say, “Hey, could we partner together because you put me on a retainer?” There’s so much that you could do within the space.

Rob:  As you think about those different options then, can you maybe give us some of the advantages or disadvantages for say starting in-house versus starting freelance?

Lindsey:  Yeah. Freelance, you would be able to get your hands on a plethora of other industries on way more industries than you would if you were just in-house. In-house may just stick you to a contract, but you may have to sign a non-compete or something like that. Its pros and cons and everything, it depends on what works best for you and how you want to work. You may enjoy working in-house, getting a steady retainer from a corporation or an agency that for sure is going to be able to provide you with the income that you want. Or you may say, “I’m going to freelance, I’m going to work for various clients, and then I will figure out how that’s best going to serve me and my business model.”

Rob:  Okay. We’re breaking in, as we like to do, to talk a little bit more about the things that Lindsey’s been sharing that I think maybe deserves a little bit more attention. Mai-kee, I like to let the guest go first, and since you’re my guest here, let’s start with one of your thoughts. What has jumped out to you as Lindsey’s been sharing her advice?

Mai-kee:  So many things. Do we have a couple hours?

Rob:  We can make it work.

Mai-kee:  Probably not?

Rob:  Yeah, we’ll make it work.

Mai-kee:  All right. Definitely the first thing that popped out to me was about positioning yourself as a copywriter, because if you’re in The Copywriter Club, you’re surrounded by a lot of copywriters, right? This is our community right now. How about every other copywriter out there? There has to be another way that we can position ourselves for publicity. Right? I would invite you to consider thinking beyond your working title and consider venturing into the identities you’re representing as a result of being visible as well. As our friend Mike Kim like to say, you are the brand, right? Just I encourage you to just really look into that. When Lindsey mentioned about our sense of positioning, just to venture into different places where you can position yourself better. That’s number one. Number two-

Rob:  Okay. Let me start because-

Mai-kee:  Okay. That’s a lot to unpack.

Rob:  … I think that’s a really good point. As you pointed out, there’s a million copywriters out there, and if you’re only calling yourself a copywriter, you’re making your client do the work to figure out is this the copywriter who can solve my problem? Is this a copywriter who’s good at writing for aeronautics or medical or coaches or whatever? You’re exactly right. There’s definitely ways to do that with your niche and with your expertise and with your deliverables. But you’re also talking about even going broader, right? Going into maybe personal beliefs or things that you like doing, that kind of stuff, or am I reading more into that than what you’re suggesting?

Mai-kee:  Oh, no. That’s the right reading. Just think of it as an intersectional approach to your positioning, where you just acknowledge the accumulation of your experiences, your skills and your identities that do make up your unique positioning, your X factor, if you will. Right? Ever since I started thinking of visibility that way, I started noticing that we all know that we “shouldn’t compare” to other people, right? But in essence, we do. Just as human beings, we do compare ourselves to other people. But when we venture inwards and we start acknowledging what we are made up of, that just falls away, and then we stand more grounded with who we are and what we’re here for.

Rob:  Yeah. I love that. Bringing in all of the pieces that make us unique, and not just saying, “Oh, I’m a copywriter and I can write you a copy?”

Mai-kee:  Yes, exactly.

Rob:  Perfect. Okay. You have more than one thing. What else jumped out to you?

Mai-kee:  Yes. I’ve got two more things. Hopefully, we can cover that because I want to make sure that we get into the bullet points set you got as well noted. Another thing was I love that the question was asked about how much do relationships actually matter in the PR world? Right? Am I just buying access to these relationships? That is one of the biggest things that comes to mind when we are considering, right? It was really great to hear Lindsey confirm that you can break through without those relationships.

Of course, it can help, right? But it’s not everything, which is I think it’s pretty reassuring, right? For those of us who are just starting out to venture into different forms of publicity and visibility. The reason why relationships matter in essence is because there’s trust there. If it doesn’t already exist because you are coming in cold to someone who you are reaching out to, just build it by being true to your word and have your results support that truth.

Rob:  Yeah, I like that too. Obviously, if you already have a relationship with somebody at a newspaper, at a publication, at a podcast or whatever, making that work for you, getting them to read a pitch, having them take an interest in your business puts you so much far there ahead than anybody else. When it comes to, I’m doing air quotes now, but doing PR, a lot of it really is just that relationship building. I think a lot of us think, “Well, okay, I’ll run my business for a couple of years, and then at year three, I’ll be ready to do PR,” and that’s the wrong way to look at it.

If you’re building relationships as you go, you’re doing PR and then you can lean on those relationships to make it work. Like Lindsey pointed out, yeah, you can do this on your own. There are PR professionals who have their own relationships that maybe you can lean on when it’s the right time, either way. But it is the kind of thing that if we’re strategic about just building friendships and relationships as opposed to networking, pitching, all that kind of stuff, it can pay dividends down the road.

Mai-kee:  Absolutely, and it’s a lot more humanistic in that way, when we see it through relationships and not just networking and pitching cold everywhere. Right? That brings me to my final point as well about pitching. We’re going to go deeper into pitching later on, of course, but 1000% what Lindsey said about following their pitch protocol. Because if we don’t, then that tells the person on the receiving end that we don’t respect their process, and we’re also showing that we lack attention to detail, or maybe that we are coming across as if the rules don’t apply to us. None of that will help you build the bridge for a relationship. In fact, it could burn it down, especially if it’s your first impression because they don’t owe you anything.

If you leave a bad impression by doing something as simple as not following their protocol, that can really damage your chances in the future, and people talk fast, as well. Of course, we all do PR with the goal in mind of something in return for our businesses, right? Just a quick side note, when it comes to a launch, for example, anything that’s time sensitive that you want this PR opportunity to support, give yourself ample time, right? Give yourself grace and patience because we are not always able to influence the release of our features. Right? That’s why follow their pitch protocol and also give yourself that ample time there because we need to respect that it’s their platform and not ours.

Rob:  Yeah. That is such good advice. You have your own podcast and so you obviously get pitched for that, and-

Mai-kee:  Yes.

Rob:  … we see the same thing. It drives me nuts when people pitch us things that aren’t a good fit. We’ve published on our website. Maybe it’s not the easiest page to find, but if you want to pitch our podcast, if you want to be a guest or write for The Copywriter Club, we do have a process. It’s very easy to apply and almost nobody follows that. It would be so much easier if people just did exactly what we asked them to do, because we’re basically giving them pointers on how do you make your pitch stand out so that we’ll go, “Yeah, we definitely-”

Mai-kee:  Wow.

Rob:  “… want to have this person on the show.”

Mai-kee:  You’re literally giving them a roadmap like, “Here’s how to pitch us successfully,” and this will be- I’m going to look for that page later and re-pitch you both.

Rob:  Yeah, you can criticize and see if we’ve done it right. But I think the larger point here though is that I mentioned maybe being in the Wall Street Journal or something like that. If I want to do that, well, I can’t really go outside the Wall Street Journal’s process, right? I’ve got to the connections and follow the process in order to do that, and the same is true for being on anybody’s podcast or getting your message out on guest blogs or whatever it is that you do. Follow the process, and if they don’t have one, follow just a normal pitch process where you’re not being crazy, you’re not making demands. Be human, like you said.

Mai-kee:  Yes. 100%.

Rob:  A couple of other things that I just want to touch on before we move on where Lindsey was talking about their strategy for determining who they would reach out to and where it would be, and it struck me that even I have done this. When I’m thinking about, okay, yeah, I’d actually like to be on somebody’s podcast, I’m starting my thought process oftentimes with the people or the platform where I want to show up as opposed to the strategy behind it. Why do I want to be in these places? What’s the message I have to share with that audience?

Lindsey just reset that for me, and she’s talking about it’s, yeah, you need to start with what’s the message? What do you want from this PR, from this opportunity, from this speaking gig, from this podcast, whatever? Then once you identify what that is, maybe that’s a match for the person or the platform where you want to show up. Maybe it’s not, you need to find something else. But I appreciated that because I think we oftentimes get those flipped around and we start with, well, I-

Mai-kee:  Yeah, we skip that.

Rob:  … definitely want to be, yeah, on this big podcast. I want to be on Mai-kee’s podcast, and who knows if I have anything to share there that would be valued.

Mai-kee:  Well, I’m sure you have plenty to value, Rob. But we can speak after this. Yeah, I completely agree with you there. Yes, it is great to have these opportunities, but how much of it is efficient for our business and not just an ego stroke? We all have ego, right? It’s okay to want those opportunities, but it needs to lead to something in order to optimize the opportunity and also do right by the audience you’re serving as well, and of course the host too.

Rob:  Yeah. Perfect. Then last thing I just want to mention, and this is maybe a smaller discussion, but I loved when Lindsey asked the question, “Am I the bottleneck in my business?” Where you’re specifically talking about should you get help with PR? If you are the person that’s keeping you from getting PR, then absolutely you should. But even broader, this applies to hiring a VA, hiring a junior copywriter, getting help with almost anything, marketing, funnel building, whatever, design, if you are the bottleneck that’s holding back something from happening, it’s time to reach out and get help. This is maybe something I need to start putting on a sticky note for me. Am I being the bottleneck here? Because I think often times we could get a lot more done if we could just get out of the way of the people who want to help us in our business.

Mai-kee:  Oh, yeah. If it wasn’t for you and Kira, when I was back in the Think Tank in 2019, I would’ve been the 100% bottleneck. I am probably still a little bit in my own business, but I’ve definitely taken off quite a load because actually I made my first hire since then and she has been incredible. Just being aware of where we are bottlenecking, and where can we start to release a sense of responsibility for ourselves and be able to trust someone else? Because it’s also trusting other people and also being willing to let go of control, which can be terrifying.

Rob:  For sure. Okay. Well, again, when we’re talking about bottlenecks, PR, getting your message out in the world is maybe some place where a professional could help if you’re getting in your own way.

Mai-kee:  All right. Thanks so much, Rob, for sharing your thoughts. Now let’s get back to the interview to see what Lindsey’s advice is when we’re really starting to think about getting PR for our businesses.

Kira:  When is the right time to start thinking about PR for our copywriting businesses? Okay, that’s my first question. Then I have a follow-up. I’ll come back to the follow-up.

Lindsey:  Okay. Yeah. The best time, honestly, I always tell people if you’ve at least been in business for one to three years, I would strongly suggest that you add in publicity as a part of your marketing strategy because it gives you the opportunity to build credibility, to build thought leadership and to build visibility and SEL with and for your business. You want and make sure that if you’ve been in business for, again, that one to three-month window, you start thinking about some of the things that we’ve been going through and talking about and how you want to be positioned in media.

Kira:  Okay. Let’s talk about a copywriter who maybe is in those first few years, and really could start focusing on PR, is a brilliant writer, but has not focused on that part of the business. Oftentimes it’s a mindset, challenge and block, and we talk to a lot of copywriters who are just like, “I don’t know what I can share or teach or why I should even build my authority.” Do you work with your client on that mindset piece, or what would you recommend there?

Lindsey:  Yes. That would be something that if someone comes to me and they’re like, “Hey, I know that I need this, but I want to work on my mindset piece first,” I would suggest that they go through our coaching program first where we really work on the mindset aspect, we work on the why, and we also work on step-by-step what the ins and outs are. If you wanted to take the route of having a publicist to look at everything from the inside out in your back office, and then saying, “Okay, let me go and take these until I’m able to afford a retainer or something like that.” Or if you’re just like, “It’s a little shaky,” because sometimes we do get those clients that are like, “Yeah, Lindsey, I know I need you, but I don’t want to be out in the forefront,” and I’m like, “You hired me. You’re going to be out there.” Right? We will offer that in terms of our meetings and consultations and things like that.

Rob:  Yeah, that last comment just got me thinking, is there a way to do PR where you’re not in the forefront, where you’re able to step back or do you really have to put your whole soul and body into it?

Lindsey:  Yeah, I would say in this day and age, you have to be in the forefront are in some capacity. Even if you are not the point person, you couldn’t have someone that could be like your spokesperson, but they’re going to be out in the forefront, right? Let’s say if you just decided to get a face, right? For your business and for your brand, that face would be the one that would be speaking out on your behalf. I guess if you wanted to “avoid” being in the front lines, you could do it that way. But because of the age that we’re in right now with social media and all things digital, you’re already putting yourself out there anyway.

Rob:  Okay. Then the question I really want to ask is obviously things like podcasts or articles in a place like Business Insider, those are obvious opportunities for PR. But what about other kinds of PR that’s not necessarily print or news related, maybe events or other things? What other almost out of the box ideas are there that we could be considering to be getting publicity?

Lindsey:  Yeah. I think you hit the nail on the head when you mentioned events, because how many copywriters are partnering and saying, “Let’s put together this digital summit, let’s put together this virtual event, let’s get together and connect with …” I don’t know. Maybe if you have one of your clientele being a real estate person, maybe if you have them being someone in beauty, connecting with them during their open houses or doing one of their shop events and saying, “We’re going to partner together and we’re going to talk about why you need copywriting for your business and we’re going to invite the media out.” There are a ton of different ways that you could think outside the box, even doing like a virtual popup subscription box where maybe you have all the things that a copywriter would need, or putting together a virtual kit. There are definitely some other outside of the box things that you could do for sure.

Kira:  I love to talk about the pitch, the actual pitch. We’ve talked a little bit about how to think about it and approach it. But when it comes to actually writing a pitch, what are some ingredients? What do we need to think about when we’re writing our own pitch?

Lindsey:  Yeah. You definitely want to think about, again, what’s the overall message of the pitch? What do you want to convey in your messaging? Number two, you want to give background story? This is where a lot of people, they’re like, “Oh my gosh, I don’t think I have a story,” or … No, think about what you’ve done, think about how you got started in your career, think about what led you to becoming a copywriter. Maybe you used to sit in English class and just write short stories and you got in trouble for that. That’s something that people want to know. That’s something that’s of interest. Again, like I mentioned earlier, looking at the outcomes that your copywriting business has gotten for clients. Those are definitely things that are a part of your background story. Then you want to drive home what are your talking points? What do you have to share with the outlet that you’re pitching?

Rob:  Yeah. Continuing in this line of thought, what are the stuff that we absolutely should not mention? What should we be leaving out that maybe we’re tempted to put in?

Lindsey:  Yeah. I would say stay away from giving your entire biography. You want to stick straight to the point. Also, stay away from embellishing results because we’ve seen people get in trouble for that because publications will backcheck. You want to make sure that you’re being truthful and that you’re being honest. You want to make sure you don’t provide them with too much too soon, and that you don’t pitch them with a bunch of links to this landing page and that landing page. Have a dedicated space that you want them to be able to go to.

Kira:  I read on your website that you’ve worked in the entertainment space and on movie screenings. Can you just share a little bit about maybe one example of a project you worked on in the entertainment space or movie screening? I think that’s really cool. I’d just love to hear more about it.

Rob:  Kira wants write scripts, so it’s right up her alley.

Lindsey:  Oh, awesome. Awesome. Awesome. Yeah. I have the privilege working on an independent film. It’s called Secrets, the movie, and it’s now out on the ET and a couple of other spaces. I work together to coordinate a screening with the executive producer who was my client to get people to come out to the screening, both attendees and press to do coverage for that. I’ve also had the opportunity to work alongside an agency called ONE/35 Agency, and their client at the time was Fox Network … Or was FX Network, sorry. FX, and they were able to coordinate a screening here where I am in the St. Louis area for the film Snowfall. Then I also worked under that same agency to do a screening and set up press for National Geographic.

Rob:  Kira, once you finish your screenplay, we can have Lindsey do the PR for it and get everybody there.

Kira:  Right. Again, when I’m 80 years old. Yes. Yes. Lindsey, I will call you when I’m 80.

Rob:  Lindsey, I hope it’s okay for me to ask this, but I want to turn our conversation in a totally different direction. I know from your bio online that you are a cancer survivor, and I am curious about that experience if you’re willing to talk about it, how you dealt with something that was so, I’m sure, challenging in so many ways, but even life threatening.

Lindsey:  Yeah. I’m grateful to be here and to be on the other side of it. Dealing with my diagnosis, it was definitely interesting and a shock initially. I had to go through six months of chemotherapy, which was super rough. During that time, honestly, I really learned a lot about myself. I took some time to reflect on just things that had happened in my life, things that had happened along the way within my business, things that I had allowed to take place, and that is really and honestly where I learned the importance of setting boundaries as a business owner and as an entrepreneur. Because I was still working the entire time that I was going through the diagnosis and chemotherapy, but I had to set boundaries.

When I felt like working, I would work. When I didn’t feel like working, I didn’t. It really, really taught me the importance of … As an entrepreneur, as a business owner, we all have these goals, these dreams, these ideas, these things, and we sometimes get caught up in the rat race of all of the things. It’s like when’s the last time that you’ve taken a step back, that you’ve just taken time out to breathe, that you’ve taken an off day, that you’ve deleted social media from your phone? Realizing that you are the most important thing. Going through that journey and that process, I really was able to assess certain things in my business, and now the changes that I’ve made are partially due to that experience.

Kira:  Can you share some other changes you’ve made? You mentioned boundaries, setting boundaries. What other changes have you made in your business and maybe even just personally that have impacted you the most?

Lindsey:  Yeah. From a personal perspective, I wrapped up chemo at the end of 2018 and I hired a personal trainer because I really am intentional about my health. Although I’m not working with a trainer right now, I go to the gym, I’ll do a home workout. I make sure that I’m moving my body, and also in that noticing that I feel 100% better when I work out versus when I don’t. That’s personally one thing. Another thing is I listen to myself and I listen to my body a lot more than I did in that previous season. If I’m tired … Last Tuesday? No, the Tuesday before, I was just like, “Oh my gosh, you know what? I can’t do this.” My team was working on things, but I just knew that I needed to take a break.

It was the best Tuesday that I’ve had in a while. I ordered breakfast, I watched some Netflix, I listened to some music because I realized that I’d been pouring out and giving so much to so many people between my team, my family, my clients. I was just like, “I need a break.” Those are some things that I’ve implemented personally and business wise. Now clients, can’t just talk to me directly. If you email me and say, “Hey, I need a meeting right now on October 14th,” I’m going to email you back and say, “Okay, can we talk next week?” Not being so on demand on all the time.

Rob:  I think we should make Netflix and breakfast Tuesdays a thing in the copywriting world. I think there’s some-

Lindsey:  Yes.

Rob:  … power in this idea, right? I’m curious about the mindset shift that probably happened as well as you went through this experience. How did it change your outlook, not just towards work, but towards everything in your life?

Lindsey:  Yeah. I am a Christian. I wholeheartedly just was like, “Let me be more intentional about my faith. Let me be more intentional about showing up and sharing my story.” Then also I’ve got the mindset of I can overcome anything. It may be hard, it may be rough, it may be difficult, it may be challenging, but I literally can overcome anything with the right attitude, with the right faith posture, and with the right mindset and putting in the work. It definitely shifted me from that perspective. Then I have always been an empathetic person, but now it’s just like, “Oh my gosh, the cat wants to get out the yard. What do we do?”

I’m really, really into about how I treat people because in the back of my head, I’m like, “You never know what people are going through. You don’t know their full story. How awful would it be for me to mistreat someone, not knowing that they are suffering silently?” Because a lot of people do not know … People that I would see in the grocery store or things like that, because I was so young, they were like, “Well, why is this girl riding around in a scooter in Walmart?” It’s like you don’t know the next person’s situation. I definitely have a lot more patience and even more kindness than I already had towards people.

Kira:  What advice would you give to someone who’s in it right now and maybe is suffering silently and struggling with something? It could be their own health crisis right now or something else that’s huge in their life. Yeah. What is your best advice for them?

Lindsey:  Yeah. My best advice would be, number one, to love on yourself as much as possible, whatever that looks like for you in this season. Whether you need to stop talking to a toxic person, or whether you need to mend a relationship or a friendship, or whether you need to just take a step back and take a couple days off and really, really just center yourself, journal, do whatever it is that you need to do to where you’re pouring love back into yourself. Number two, if you are a believer, pray about it. If not, do whatever it is that you need to do. Create a gratitude list.

Focus on the positive things and on the positive outcome, and know that you are not defined by the circumstance that you are currently going through. It does not make you any less of a person. It does not mean anything towards your character. Sometimes we are just faced with opposition and trial and tribulation. Understand that your circumstance does not define you, and then make sure that you are being consistent with creating a routine to where you are feeling good about yourself regardless of the situation on a daily basis, even if that needs to be on an hourly basis.

Rob:  I love that advice. I think that’s really important to think about and to do. Okay. I want to take our conversation back to business. You are obviously a PR expert. You help other people build their authority, get noticed. I’m curious what you do to get noticed yourself and to build your own authority within the space so that people are finding you.

Lindsey:  Yes. Definitely having the privilege and the honor of being able to come on podcasts like this. Being able to share the message that I’ve shared previously about my story. I have someone on my team that works with me to facilitate interview requests and opportunities, getting podcasts for me, magazine features. I’m intentional about that now more than I have been. Then also, social media has been awesome to me, Instagram, Facebook, I go live. I probably need to go live a little bit more, but I go live and I will also do ads from time to time. All of those things make up our marketing suite.

Kira:  Maybe we can just talk a little bit more about pitching podcasts because a lot of copywriters are pitching podcasts. Of course, Rob and I are a huge fan of that. I’ve done it. It works really well. When you’re thinking about pitching podcast, your team is thinking about it. Of course you want to make sure the audience is the right fit, but what else are you looking for to make sure that that time is worthwhile and that it’s a solid pitch and worth that time investment?

Lindsey:  Yeah. Again, you want to pay attention to what’s the format of the podcast? What do they do in terms of running the show? What do you have to offer that’s different from their guests? Do you have a connection? Maybe your friend was on the podcast and you can connect there. Really being intentional about what you want to share with that particular podcast and also being intentional about their timing. I know one of the things that we’ve had challenges with in the past when it comes to podcasts is some of them only have a five-episode season and then they’re done, right? Making sure that you know what that podcast episode consists of and what that podcast season consists of as well.

Rob:  Let’s also talk a little bit about rejection, because obviously when it comes to pitching, we know this when we’re pitching clients, almost eight, nine times out of 10, we’re going to get rejected. I’m guessing it’s similar when we’re pitching podcasts. I’ve certainly been rejected with a pitch or two. How do you help your clients deal with that constant rejection?

Lindsey:  Yeah. Honestly, it’s me taking the grunt of the rejection. We probably get told no a lot, a lot, a lot on a daily basis, or people being nonresponsive. But I always assure my clients that, number one, any client that we take on is an extension of our brand. We do not let our foot off of the gas in any capacity until we get the results for our clients. With that, we also sometimes have to be honest and say, “Hey, we need to switch up the angle,” or, “You need to do X, Y, Z, so that we can begin to get traction from the editors.” Then also, like we talked about earlier, just reassuring them. Sometimes editors are on deadline and it’s not a no, it’s never a no, it’s just a not right now and when would be best. Talking them through that process and reminding myself too of that process is definitely helpful.

Kira:  Lindsey, you’ve been in business, you said, I think nine years. What are you building? What’s next for you? What type of growth do you want to see?

Lindsey:  Yes. Right now, we are focused on building out a team, we’re focused on structuring workflow and the infrastructure within our business to make sure that we can begin to take on other clients other than just our eight to 10 capacity. I think we’re in a place where we can begin to service about 15 clients on roster. We’re gearing up in the back office for that. I also have a group coaching program that we’re getting ready to revamp and restructure. I’m excited about everything that’s to come, and what’s next, for sure.

Rob:  You’ve kind of answered this for your business, but I’m curious, where are the opportunities in PR in the future? What does the future of PR look like?

Lindsey:  Yeah. I was just having this conversation with a couple of my colleagues yesterday, actually. The future of PR is in audio, it’s in podcasting, it’s in apps like Clubhouse, it’s on building opportunities where you can work with YouTubers and influencers. It’s still in social media and it’s in making sure that you’re staying connected and getting strategic partnerships.

Kira:  Okay. Well, that’s good to hear with this since we have a podcast.

Lindsey:  Yes.

Kira:  Rob, we just need to become influencers. That’s what we need to do.

Rob:  Maybe Lindsey just shut down my hopes of ever being in the Wall Street Journal though since you didn’t mention newspapers.

Lindsey:  No, you absolutely … Thank you for saying that. Media is not going anywhere. Right? Wall Street Journal, New York Times, they’ll all be there. But where the trends are, right? Are in those things I just mentioned you. I believe that you will be featured in Wall Street Journal.

Rob:  I’m there. Let’s do it.

Kira:  I believe it. I believe it too. Rob, we’re going to make that happen. Lindsey, you’ve mentioned a couple of ways we can work with you. Can you just share maybe a quick overview of someone’s listening and they’re like, “I need help with PR, I’m not going to DIY it, or maybe I want to DIY parts of it, not all of it,” how can we work with you?

Lindsey:  Yeah, absolutely. We work with clients in three main ways. Number one, we have our laser coaching opportunities for those of you that just want to get an idea on what the strategy should be, how to implement, that sort of thing. Number two, we have our group coaching program called Position to Pivot, which walks you through a 12-week process in a group setting on the ins and outs and building the fundamentals within your publicity portfolio so that you are getting the guidance that you need to go on and land press so that the media can say yes. Number three, working with us in a one-on-one agency capacity where you are our client and we do the pitching for you on retainer.

Rob:  That’s the end of our interview with Lindsey Walker. Before we go, there are a couple more things that stood out to me. I’m sure there’s a couple that stood out to you, Mai-kee. One of them that I want to jump to, I’m sure that you were thinking about this too as you were listening, but I want to make sure we cover this is the pitch, and this is something-

Mai-kee:  I knew that was coming.

Rob:  Yeah. This is exactly why I thought, okay, I want to have Mai-kee be the guest here because you can add so much context on the pitch. We’ll link to this in the show notes. I’ll probably mention it later, but you actually wrote a really robust post for our blog at The Copywriter Club, and you laid out exactly what needs to be included in a pitch and how to do it. I want to make sure that we point people there. But yeah, let’s talk a little bit about the pitch and what we could do. We don’t necessarily have to repeat. We talked about it on your podcast and you have it there, but what are the maybe one or two things that we need to keep in mind as we’re pitching?

Mai-kee:  100%. I love that I use this acronym quite a while back. Because this is all about PR, this is the PR method that I want to share about the pitch, and this applies to pretty much any form of PR, by the way. My personal specialty is in podcast guesting. This is the context I’ll be using, but please know that this PR method is applicable elsewhere as well. PR, what does it stand for? Not public relations, in my eyes. But when it comes to the pitch, it stands for personalization and relevancy. You’d be surprised, Rob. Actually, I don’t think you are surprised because you can see when people don’t follow the PR, right?

The PR method, because it’s not personal life and it’s clear that someone, they know what they want out of your podcast, but they let that overshadow the value that they can provide to the TCC audience, for example. Right? That’s why being able to follow the PR is like it’s very easy to remember. Just personalize it to the people who you’re reaching out to. If there are multiple hosts, like there are for TCC, you address both hosts, even though the email address may be just to one person. That doesn’t matter. You never know who’s going to read it. Right? Personalize what you know about that platform, that outlet. What are they all about? What are they talking about? Who are they helping and why is your topic going to be of use here?

How is that going to be valuable? That’s when it starts transitioning into the relevancy part. You can have the most personalized, beautiful part at the beginning, at the hook. But if it’s irrelevant at the end when the topic that you’re proposing has got nothing to do with the audience that you are basically proposing to, then of course it’s not going to go through. You absolutely need both in order for you to increase your chances. But you’d be surprised that people do some things where it’s just not falling that at all. One thing that really jumps out to me when it comes to podcast outreach, I have been on the receiving end of many pitches, and one thing that really grinds my gears is when someone …

It’s normally an agency, but not all agencies are like this, but it just so happens to be the pattern I see. It’s where they do a bio stack, where they just post the bio and how awesome the client is, but that’s a lot of work for me as the host because they are basically saying like, “Oh, here’s who we have for you. Take your pick, do your work, do your due diligence.” I’m like, “No, no, no, no. I’m the host. You pitch yourself to me. I’m not meant to apply myself to you. It’s supposed to be the other way round.” Right? Following the PR method, whichever PR you’re going for, is going to really help reduce that chance of that visceral reaction on the other side.

Rob:  Yes. I’m waving my arms in totally agreement over here. This is usually not coming from a single person, but there’s an agency, maybe even more than one, that it’s not just one bio, it’s seven or eight bios that they send in one email, and they’re like, “Hey, here’s all the potential guests we have for you,” and most of them have nothing to do with copywriting or marketing. It’s like, “Oh, this person flips homes and makes a seven-figure income flipping homes.” I’m like, “Yeah, interesting,” but, like you’re saying, not at all relevant and is very impersonal when you’re doing that kind of thing. I’m double underlining everything you’re saying there. If you can personalize it and make it relevant, your chances of breaking through all of the stuff that people are getting in their inboxes is so much easier.

Mai-kee:  Absolutely.

Rob:  Okay. Then also, another thing that really stood out to me as Lindsey was talking is just this idea, and we talk about this I think quite a bit, but it’s being brave enough to put yourself out there. When it comes to PR, I asked Lindsey if you can be in the background. Can you have somebody doing this for you? You don’t have to be the face. I think that was an obvious question, but to be clear, because I think there are a lot of us that would like to not be out there, that we don’t want to be in the forefront, but the reality is in order to get the attention that we deserve on our ideas, on the good work that we do, on our businesses to attract the kinds of clients that we want, that are high paying, that are high profile, you really do have to be brave enough to put yourself out there.

It’s the kind of thing that you can practice, work up to or whatever. But maybe you can hide if you’re just doing guest posts. I don’t think those are the most effective ways to get yourself out there, but it’s certainly better than nothing. But beyond that, you really can’t hide. You’ve got to be the face of your business.

Mai-kee:  Yes. There is a true element of bravery when it comes to … I actually have shifted this term a little. Instead of the word put, I replace it with the word place. I place myself out there because it feels a lot more gentle and a lot more consensual and a lot not so much like blunt forcey. But it’s each to their own, right? I would love to invite everyone who’s listening right now, what does it mean for you to be visible? Right? What does hiding look like and what does being visible look like? Because in my eyes personally, I’ve noticed that a lot of the industry views visibility through a singular lens, right? It’s the big things on the stages and on the podcast and all of those things, but there are other ways that we can be seen by people as well.

Email marketing is being seen. When you’re guest posting, that is also being seen. It really depends on what your personal comfort zone is and where you’re willing to expand beyond it. That’s where a lot of the unknown comes in and that’s where the bravery, we really need to tap into that, because it’s just something that we’re not used to. But I will also invite everyone to consider, don’t discount yourself or what you’re currently doing that is working for you right now. It may not get you to where you want to go, but it’s still helping you on your way as well.

Rob:  Yeah. When you put yourself out there, I think the flip side is rejection, and this is maybe one of the big reasons why we don’t like to put ourselves out there because we don’t want to be rejected. I don’t want to pitch you, Mai-kee, and have you say, “Well, Rob, you’re not actually perfect for my audience.” When that happens, I’m thinking, okay, what’s wrong with me that it’s not okay? That is not what rejection is, especially when it comes to PR. Maybe the message isn’t right. Maybe they’ve talked about the same exact message. It was right, but because they talked about it two weeks ago with somebody else, it’s not right now. There are so many things that play into it. With our podcast, we only have 52 opportunities every year to record an episode with somebody.

If we’ve filled those up, it’s not because we don’t want to talk to the 53rd person. It’s simply because there’s not a time to do that. There’s so many reasons that rejection happens. As Lindsey suggested, hiring somebody to help you with the pitching, you can deflect some of that rejection to the person that’s helping you, the agency or the person. But there’s almost even a more fundamental mindset shift, which it’s not really rejection. It’s more of not a great fit at the moment for a variety of reasons, and let’s just keep talking, let’s keep that relationship going because at some point in the future, it will be a fit.

Mai-kee:  Yeah, exactly. It’s pretty much a … It can be a no, right? But if you don’t have a firm no, it’s like, “Oh, maybe it’s just not right now,” right? I love what you said there as well and what Lindsey shares too, is just there are so many variables outside of our control that will impact the result of whether we get this opportunity or not. But a good question to revisit when you feel that confrontation or you feel the hurt from what is perceived as a projection for you, ask yourself what have I made this mean about me? Because if it brings up anything that is just very uncomfortable, then that just shows you what you might want to work on to reduce the sting of rejection each and every time.

I still get but hurt, every now and then, and that’s fine because it was a part of the process. But I ask myself that question, what have I made this mean about me though? Does it make me feel like I’m not good enough? I need conclusive proof. A friend, Tanya Gainza, for example, she uses this term data points. Look back on the data points that prove this otherwise, and that can really help.

Rob:  Yeah. That’s a really good point. Anything else jump out to you from the half of the interview?

Mai-kee:  Yes, definitely. Well, I was so appreciative of the turn that it took, right? When Lindsey shared more about her personal story. Whew! Right? That just took me back for a moment. All about taking care of yourself and boundary and assessing your needs. Because any type of PR or just a lot of actions in our businesses, oftentimes take a lot of courage and vulnerability to do on a consistent basis. In order for that to be consistent, we need and deserve to retreat and back to ourselves so that our cups are filled and they can overflow where we can give again from a place of abundance, as opposed to having that well run dry because it’s a lot.

I invite everybody to be gentle with themselves and pat themselves on the back just a bit more because it does take a lot of courage and vulnerability to do this, and it may take a very important life … What do you call this, Rob? When something in life happens to you. A life event, I guess. It may take a life event or it may be witnessing a life event of someone else to realize that you deserve of this, you get to take care of yourself because it’s a big deal what we’re doing.

Rob:  Yeah. I totally echo that. I also liked, as Lindsey was talking about going through that, when she reminded us that everybody’s dealing with something and it’s impossible to see what people are going through. Whether it’s something like Lindsey did with cancer, depression, relationships that maybe not working as well as somebody wants, problems at work, everybody has something and almost all of that is invisible to us. When we encounter people in real life, sometimes it’s just nice to be nice because who knows what somebody else is going through, and that helps them be able to take care of whatever the thing is that they need to do as they move forward with their challenges, or as I move forward with my challenges.

Mai-kee:  Yeah. That’s true. You honest never know. If you imagine if you walked down the street and everybody had a little bubble above their head, a little thought bubble, and if you saw what they were thinking or what they were going through, you would have so much more compassion and be much less likely to yell at someone if they annoys you that day or something when you realize what they’re also carrying with them. That was really lovely human touch to this whole conversation. Thank you, Lindsey, for that. Just something that I really wanted to share as well because she mentioned the word capacity, and that’s something that I work on with my clients all the time when it comes to visibility, and something that I’d love to extend and share with the TCC audience here is when you’re thinking about capacity, don’t just think about it in terms of having enough to do the thing.

As in, for example, if we’re having a podcast interview as our example here, don’t just have capacity for the interview. You need it before, during and after. Three As I follow. Do I have enough capacity for the anticipation of what’s about to happen? Do I have enough capacity for the action itself? Do I have enough capacity for the aftermath? The aftermath is the recovery period and also handling receiving response. For example, if an episode that you are on for a podcast is just released and suddenly you’re getting hundreds of new subscribers or thousands of new followers, et cetera, et cetera, do you have the capacity for that? Because I myself did not allocate enough for the aftermath most of the time, and that’s where I found myself burning out quite a lot and that’s why I shifted into this whole sustainable visibility thing.

When Lindsey talked about the importance of capacity, I just had to echo that for everybody here. It takes a bit more than you probably would expect, and that’s okay. Right? But so long as you are prepared for that, then you’re able to keep going consistently instead of stopping and starting. You describe this term, is that you don’t want to be like a flash in the pan. Right? I invite everybody to consider looking at their capacity through those three As, anticipation, action and aftermath, because that’s really going to help you be on this slow burn, just like a lovely roast dinner. It’s not the two-hour roast that are the best. It’s the 24-hour one, that low and slow.

Rob:  Yeah. I like that. I think that’s great advice. It’s something that we should all consider and even maybe a great place to end our conversation, Mai-kee.

Mai-kee:  Yes, absolutely.

Rob:  We want to thank Lindsey Walker for joining us on the podcast today. If you want to connect with her or work with her in any of the three ways that she serves her customers, that she talked about, check out her Instagram at Lindsey A. Walker, and that’s L-I-N-D-S-E-Y A W-A-L-K-E-R. Lindsey A. Walker on Instagram. You can also contact her at her website, which is Walker Assoc, as in associates, but it’s not the whole associates, Walker Assoc Media Group, W-A-L-K-E-R A-S-S-O-C M-E-D-I-A

Mai-kee:  I feel like you just won a spelling bee.

Rob:  Yeah, there you go.

Mai-kee:  All righty. That is the end of this episode of The Copywriter Club Podcast. The intro music was composed by copywriter and songwriter, Addison Rice. The outro was composed by copywriter and songwriter, David Muntner. If you’ve enjoyed what you’ve heard, please visit Apple Podcast to leave your review of the show as well.

Rob:  Thanks for that. Just a quick reminder, if you’re ready to invest in yourself and your copywriting business and lay the foundation for a successful 2022, visit and get on the wait list so you can find out more about that. Finally, if you’ve enjoyed what you’ve heard and you want to jump right into another episode that’s related to what we’ve been talking about today, well, we’ve talked about PR before in episode number 229. Selena Soo outlined her process for getting PR. We talked about holding events and using even small events to build PR with Patsy Kenney on episode 151.

We talked with Brigitte Lyons about pitching podcasts on episode 150. All of those episodes are packed with ideas that will help you get more attention on your business. Like I mentioned earlier, don’t forget about episode 152, which featured my co-host today, Mai-kee Tsang. She also wrote that meaty post that I referred to for The Copywriter Club blog where she shared her exact template for pitching podcast. It’s definitely worth checking out, and we’ll link to all of those episodes and Mai-kee’s article in the show notes. Thanks, Mai-kee, and thanks for listening. We’ll see you next week.


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