TCC Podcast #254: Permission to Fail with Amisha Shrimanker - The Copywriter Club
TCC Podcast #254: Permission to Fail with Amisha Shrimanker

For the 254th episode of The Copywriter Club podcast, Amisha Shrimanker hops on to talk all about her journey from order taker to CEO. Amisha is the founder of The Copy Crew and their focus is copy for online business coaches. As business owners, we don’t always give ourselves the permission to get things wrong, but Amisha looks at this from a different perspective.

Here’s what we talk about:

  • Writing copy without knowing you’re writing copy.
  • Finding the right community to propel your business and skillset forward.
  • How to write pitches that land you the job.
  • The reality of beginner pricing. Do you need to settle?
  • Going from order taker to 20k months in 18 months.
  • Sending people to junior copywriters when they want to haggle.
  • The pros and cons of being the order taker. Note: Learn all you can.
  • The better way to land big clients.
  • Why you need to document your copywriting process.
  • How to get extra validation from your clients. (even if it doesn’t pay.)
  • The reality of hustle and the benefits it can bring you in the long run.
  • Getting the best case studies to showcase your work and results.
  • Hiring someone to ask your client questions about you. Win-Win?
  • Being on the other side of the interview. The interviewer becomes the interviewee.
  • Getting the most out of job boards and paying for connections.
  • How to do more than just “done for you” work.
  • Why you shouldn’t let inexperience hold you back.
  • Shifting your mindset from scarcity to abundance.
  • How surrounding yourself with high-achieving people will propel you 10 steps forward.
  • Building trust with your clients and demonstrating your expertise.
  • When is enough learning, enough? Is it time to say no to more courses?
  • Leveling up from skillbuilding to strategy-building.
  • Can audits be profitable in your business?

Hit the play button to listen to Amisha’s genius or read the transcript below.

The people and stuff we mentioned on the show:

Kira’s website
Rob’s website
The Copywriter Club Facebook Group
The Copywriter Underground
Amisha’s website
Nicole’s website


Full Transcript:

Rob:  If you’re a longtime listener to The Copywriter Club podcast, you’ve heard hundreds of copywriters share their stories over the last four years. And while we talk about the struggles that copywriters have from time to time, the big focus of our interviews is the success that so many copywriters are having in their businesses. Our guest today is Amisha Shrimanker. Amisha has a counter intuitive process for finding success. It’s all about choosing lots of ways to fail each week or each month, and then going after those failures with serious intensity. But the result isn’t failure, it’s actually success. And we can’t wait to share this interview with you in just a minute. But first, you’re still on maternity leave, and I want to introduce my co host for today, Nicole Morton. Nicole, how are you?

Nicole:  Good. Thank you so much for having me. This is such a treat.

Rob:  Yeah, this is going to be fun. So Nicole, for those of you who don’t know her, she’s a copywriter, brand strategist, really a creative genius. I know she doesn’t want to own that title. But it’s true. She’s a member of our think tank, and she’s been a longtime member of the copywriter underground, and she is the CEO, chief writer at the creatively named Nicole Morton Agency, so you can check her out there. And before we get to our interview with Amisha, this is the last time that I’m going to mention this for a while. But the Copywriter accelerator is open for two more days. If you’re listening as this episode drops, it will close tomorrow, midnight September 1st year 2021.

And if you are looking for a program that will help you set your business on the right foundation moving forward so that you’re ready in 2022 for the success that you want to create in your business, if you need help with things like mindset and creating packages and the clients want to buy and processes that serve those clients and pricing those packages and branding and getting yourself out in front of the right clients, finding your X factor and so much more, then you’ll want to check out the, where you can still join this program for two more days.

And if you’re listening after September 1st, we will be opening up the Copywriter accelerator again next year. Kira and I are actually working on adding some new and improved content. Everybody who joins this year will get all of that new and improved content next year, but the price will probably go up just depending on what we add. So check out the Okay, let’s jump into our interview with Amisha starting with her story and how she became a copywriter.

Amisha:  I started my copywriting business in 2018. I was doing it before I even call myself a copywriter honestly. I had friends like peers who were business coaches because I wanted to be a business coach at the time and not a service provider. I started my online journey in 2016 right after I had my second child and I just knew I wanted to do something that would give me the work life balance and make a good living and do something online. And long story short, my friends, my peers would send me their landing pages or emails to have a look at and make some recommendations. And I would do that. They would take my suggestions and would see some results. And I still didn’t know that you could be just paid for doing that. I didn’t know that was actually called copywriting or whatever or copy auditing. And I was like, “Who’s going to pay for that?”

So anyway, fast forward in fall of 2018, I put a stake in the ground and said, “You know what? I think I know enough. And I think this is a thing called copywriting. And I’m going to say no to everyone else. I’m going to say no to trying to get my business coaching off the ground, group programs and building seven dollar passive income products and hoping I would make a grand every day as promised by the influencers out there.” Three years ago, it wasn’t such a big thing as it is now with low ticket offers and upsells and down sells. So, I was like, “I’m not going to do any of that, I’m just going to do copywriting. I’m going to launch my thing. And I’m going to write copy for business coaches. So I firmly decided that I was going to do it, say goodbye to all the distractions and figure this out.

And here we are three years later, mistakes, rejections, nightmare clients, not getting paid on some projects, but also a lot of good stuff that’s come out in all of this. Some great peers, supportive community, making… Having those 20K months kind of a thing once in a while, releasing digital products and all that good stuff and future looks exciting.

Rob:  That was the perfect way to set up this conversation, because you mentioned all of the things that we should be talking about. But let’s start at the very beginning. So people were starting to ask you for help, when you put the stake in the ground, decided that you were going to go forward as a copywriter, how did you start attracting your first clients? What is it that you did to connect with them?

Amisha:  I started being active in Facebook groups because I think that was a very dominant strategy at the time, two, three years ago. I think it still is even today to an extent, but I don’t know how much it’s practiced. But anyway, that was the thing, right? You join Facebook groups, you find people that you want to work with, and you do the value posting, and then you add comments, and then you kind of like showcase your expertise somehow. And there was one particular group that I joined, it was a paid group, and which was good right off the bat, because the people, the quality of people, really, it was high, was good quality.

And this group had a job board sort of a thing. And it was a lot to do with digital marketing. And now and then there would be jobs posted about looking for a copywriter, looking to write funnel copy, or emails or sales pages, or social media posts. And I would jump in those and that would apply to those positions to get the gig back in the day, and just see what works. But I think. And what worked for me was I would write a very strong pitch. That Facebook group had maybe 1000 people in there. And there were a lot of people who wanted the same gigs, obviously.

And not that I would get every single one of them that I applied for, but I knew I can write and I knew I could position myself differently from others. And I just took a gamble. And I’m like, “Sometimes it paid off.” And I got some really good projects out of that. So that was how I got started. And then those clients were happy, they would refer other people, I would apply to more of these job board postings and get myself practice my craft and do what I could.

Rob:  So, can you walk us through what some of those early pitches looked like? Obviously, you’re doing something because you’re connecting with people, but what was it that made your pitches different from the way other people were approaching?

Amisha:  So I… And I have this in one of my digital products, there were two ways I would approach it. If I had no experience at all with the client and the kind of project they were looking for, what I would do is lay down a list of certifications, or the training that I’ve had. I have taken Marie Forleo’s, The Copy Cure, I have gone to Copyhackers, I understand this is what I’m willing to do, I’m going to do the research. I will tell them what I was willing to do, even though I had limited experience. And I said… And I was hoping that based on a little bit of my work ethic and the kind of explaining my process, which was even loosey goosey at the time, it wasn’t refined, I would hope that that would at least get them to say, “Hey, let’s hop on a call and have a conversation.”

Because that was my thing. If I can get them to talk to me on a phone conversation or Zoom call, I can probably sell them what I want, that I can sell them on me. That was hoax. So I would say, “This is why you should hire me. And this is what I’ve done, I have critiqued.” And I would even add samples of my peer stuff that I had reviewed and how that helped them get those conversions, and I would throw that in there. Whatever little proof I had, I would just put it in those pitches. And yeah, that sometimes worked. And sometimes it didn’t. They’d be like, “No, we’re looking specifically for someone who’s worked in the interior decorating industry. And even though your portfolio seems great, I don’t think you’d be up for the job.” So it was like really positioning in places and things where I did have experience, personal experience.

I remember applying to a position where the coach was a parent coach, and she had young kids, and I was like, “Hey, I can do that, I can help you. I belong to free Facebook groups that have parents, I’m a parent, I know what it’s like, I’ll bring in my personal enthusiasm, obviously, and do all the research for you. So you don’t even have to do this yourself. And I can get input from a lot of parents that will help you with this launch.” So I always look for a common ground where I can kind of add a little bit of extra, what do I have in common? Make it relevant to kind of stand out, instead of those dry cut and paste pitches.

Rob:  Yeah, I like that. So, let me ask about how you were pricing those early projects. Those first couple of projects… We’re not talking the $20,000 months that you have today, what did that look like? How much were you charging for early on?

Amisha:  Oh, gosh! I think for a sales page, I was charging 997, I didn’t even call it a grand which was okay, I think starting out, I hope it was decent. But I would charge like 100 bucks for an email. Yeah, back in the day, 100 bucks for an email, 100 bucks for a blog post and the blog post could be even beyond 1000 words, but I’m like, “Hey, I’m making some money. This is looking good.” So, that was my pricing mindset. I’m like, “Who’s going to pay so much?” And it was just like scarcity mindset. Like, “Grab whatever I can and kind of prove myself and do that.” So, that was… Yeah, that was the beginning price point.

Rob:  Okay. Yeah. Prove the concept it all worked. Talk about how your business has evolved from that starting point then to where you are today.

Amisha:  Yeah. So I Think it’s basically going from order taker to working on five figure projects today. And I’ve got to tell you, Rob, this was not an overnight thing. I was still struggling professionally, even until last year. But going into this year, things obviously change. And I will talk about that. But in a nutshell, a few things helped me make that switch. First of all, I wanted to work with non DIY clients who did not want to DIY on copy. And there are a lot of them out there, right? Like, “Hey, I can write my copy, I write well, I don’t need a launch copywriter.” And obviously, look for clients who have bigger budgets. And this is very simple, but it’s true.

Some clients just do not have the budget. And you’ve got to be able to say no, like, “I’m sorry, this is not going to work out. And I think what you’re looking for is someone who can… Maybe a junior copywriter, or something of the sort.” And I wasn’t willing to position myself like that anymore. So, I have to say no. The other thing that helped me was documenting my wins. That made a massive ROI to my clients launches. Even as an order taker. I worked on a couple of really great projects as an order taker. And by the way, if you’re newer in your journey as a copywriter, there’s no shame in starting out that way. I mean, you do learn a lot about what you like, dislike about the clients, the projects, the industry, all of them aren’t bad experiences. The one thing I’d like to offer is if you can work on one crucial element of launch, and I say launch, because I’m a launch copywriter, or a project that’s going to have a strong financial benefit to your client, document that as a case study right away after the project’s done.

That’s what I did with the first couple of projects that I got lucky to get hired as a copywriter. I use those case studies to land bigger clients. The other thing I did and this is what I learned at the accelerator, thanks to you and Kira, is to document my copywriting process. This was huge. Walking a prospective client through the process on a sales call, telling them how each step benefits them, makes you look like you know what you’re doing and relaxes the clients because they want to be in good hands. The other thing, just doing badass work. As an order taker, I was ready to please, I was assigned to do one job, but I would see how that impacted other parts of the funnel. I would take ownership and would consult the client saying, “Hey, here’s the deliverable that you needed for me, but here are some tips that would help you with your launch conversions. Do this on this email and kind of add a video there.”

I went the extra mile, they implement my tips, score some wins, I get the validation that I needed and include that in my case study. So it was a win-win. So it’s like don’t be afraid to do the extra credit work. It doesn’t go unnoticed. You may not get paid for it, but in the long term, it does pay off and it’s paying off for me right now. So… And last but not the least. I think yeah, just surround yourself with some amazing mentors, like the accelerator changed things for me in 2019, helped me think of my business differently. And then I want to also credit another mentor who has helped me, it’s Julie Stoian, who’s a mentor to me, and would graciously highlight me in one of her programs as a brilliant sales page copywriter, launch copywriter, and a little bit of praise like that never hurts, especially if it’s coming from a well recognized authority and you know, work travels. So all that to say, this was not an overnight process, it took time, it’s taken me at least 12 to 18 months to get here. Not glamorous, but it’s the truth.

Rob:  I want to come back to connecting with Julie and other mentors in just a second. But let’s go back to what you were saying about documenting your successes and creating case studies. Because this is something that comes up a lot when we’re talking with copywriters. And I think it’s really interesting how you’ve used this in order to leverage and grow. So, what did you document? What did the case studies actually look like? Walk us through how the evolution of the story in your case study that you would then share with your clients to connect with them?

Amisha:  Yeah, that’s a great question. So honestly, I have not written those case studies myself. I have three case studies, there are a couple of more in the pipeline. I hired Melissa Harstine, who I met in the Copywriter accelerator, the amazing copywriter, she’s known to write really great case studies. And I think what makes a good case study, and again, I’m not an expert, because this is not my expertise. Melissa has the ability to ask really great questions, not just asked me what my process was, it really made me think, “Huh, how did I approach this launch?” She asked me questions I would not even think of. And then she would even interview my clients with who I had those wins. “What did Amisha do differently? What was the experience like?” So it’s not just reporting the metrics and the numbers, those are great. But also what was the experience of working with someone like me. What was the customer service like? And what was the attention to detail and how did she take care of everything? And how was She different from other copywriters who you’ve worked in the past?

So she kind of put all of this into a case study. Yeah, that was her approach, how she did it. And I had these on my website. And to date on my sales presentations, I use these case studies, I kind of like highlight them. And I add links to these whenever a client is considering to work with me like, “Hey, this is what we did with so and so’s launch. And this is what we did with this other person’s launch. “So they know. So, yeah.

Rob:  I love the… Yeah, just doing this as a proof point showing that you have done the work before, you’ve had results. I just can’t imagine that that doesn’t… That it’s not just an awesome piece of leverage for having clients agree to work with you.

Amisha:  Yeah, no, totally. It really… I think having powerful case studies, if you don’t do any other marketing, if we’re not doing Facebook ads, and this is I think adding powerful case studies will really change things for you significantly, clients just see you differently, they get to read this stuff on their own. Like, “Okay, this is the launch, this was the process, these were the challenges.” Everything’s in there, they get to see that, and then they already know, they come prepared when they come on that sales presentation, like, “Okay, this is what this person is known for.” And sometimes I feel like I don’t do enough. I haven’t published enough of the case studies. But again, I’m still relatively new in my field of work. But I’m hoping to add a couple of more by the end of this year. So it’ll be great to get together with Melissa again to do those. And one thing I would like to say is that hire someone to do this for you. Because it’s like you have a limited view of what your greatness is, we kind of like underestimate ourselves how great we were.

But when it’s someone else writing about you for you, they kind of dig much deeper, right? They’re not afraid to ask those questions and get those answers and kind of present it in a way that makes you look awesome. We can’t do our own PR, right? You need someone else to do it. So I would say if you can’t, then hire somebody to write these for you, it just makes a big difference.

Rob:  Yeah, and when you bring somebody else in to help too, they can often ask your client questions that you might not be comfortable asking. So, it’s a nice resource to have. If you’ve got somebody you can trust, like you have Melissa and she is a phenomenal copywriter to be able to do that work for you or with you, I think is super, super smart.

Amisha:  Yeah, totally. And I’ve got to say it just feels nice to be on the other side to be interviewed for once like, “Hey, what was… You had such a great win, tell me about it. How did you do it? And it’s nice to be asked the questions instead of being on the other side, like, “Okay, I got to deliver this and stuff.” It’s nice to be on that other side. At least it was for me. Someone taking an interest in what I did to create that success for my clients. So, it’s nice to be on that side.

Rob:  I like that. Okay, let’s fast forward. Then you were talking about connecting with mentors? You mentioned Julie Stoian in particular. How did you connect with her? Did you buy her program? Did you meet her in an event? How did that all come together? Because like you said, when you have somebody that has authority, they have a high profile, people are already looking up to them, and they make a recommendation, that can be a total business changer. Suddenly, you can have more work than you could possibly satisfy because this person has just said, “Hey, Amisha’s a great copywriter, hire her.” Whatever. So, how did you make that connection happen? And how can we replicate that process in connecting with other authority figures?

Amisha:  Great question. So, my initial copywriting work, or any kind of the funnel launch copy work came from Julie’s paid program that I mentioned before. The paid freelance… Sorry, the paid Facebook group that is one of her legacy programs, she doesn’t have it anymore. It’s called Create Your Laptop Life. And I joined, and yes, there was a digital strategy and all that training, which is great. I think she does an awesome job of that. But there was also a job board, which was really helpful. And I leveraged that job board and I was like, “Okay, I’m going to make a name for myself in here.”

And later that year, I believe it was 2018 when Julie announced that she is running a mastermind, and I was like, “I’ve got so much value being in this person’s group, and my first 5K project came through that job board, and I had a little bit of success, but I was like, “If I need to grow and I need to get her eyes on my stuff…” Which is really very important to have a mentor look at your stuff and tell you what you’re doing, what you’re not doing, and help you kind of change things in your business. I was like, “I have to get into that mastermind. I have to find a way to get that money.” It was not easy for me, but it was like a decision that I made and I still credit that decision is one of the best decisions.

So I joined her mastermind 2018, and the kind of people that Julie brings together, a lot of them are high six and seven figure entrepreneurs… I mean all. It’s great that you get to see what’s working in their businesses, but it’s also a great place because this is where you can build those relationships. And my first two initial big success stories came from working with one of those clients, because they did not have the time to write the copy, they did not have the time to learn copywriting and they were more than willing to hire a copywriter who was willing to put in that extra work and for me. So yeah, I had to pay to get access to people like this, but it helps. And sometimes it’s either you pay with your money or time, right? And I chose to, “Okay, I have the money I’m going to figure this out.”

And I did figure it out, I joined her mastermind, and that success built upon the others and her kind of saying nice things, and I have that great testimonial on my website from her. This all played into it. And it’s kind of like a snowball effect after that. So, yeah. Julie has been very instrumental in everything I have done. And I can’t thank her enough for that.

Rob:  I think about my own copywriting journey. And investing in those kinds of things has been the thing that helps me level up faster too. And being able to… It’s not just the mentor that you connect with when you’re in groups like that, whether it’s a Facebook group, or mastermind, or whatever, but the people around you. Like what you do with Melissa, in connection with other people, just having that network to support the ideas, all of the stuff that comes out of it, it’s in my book a worthy investment almost all the time. Obviously, you want to be smart about who you’re following, the kinds of groups that you join, but if it’s a good group, it can be a total game changer.

Amisha:  Oh, yeah, totally. And if you’re doing good work, a good mentor will not just only promote you, but you also look for ways to collaborate, which I would like to also talk about later on how I have used that as an opportunity to also grow my business in a way and look at things differently, other than just doing done for new works.

Rob:  So let’s break in here and talk just a little bit about some of the stuff that Amisha mentioned. So, Nicole, I’m going to ask you first, what stood out to you from this first half of our interview, or my interview with Amisha?

Nicole:  There were so so many things. But I want to talk first about getting started, about the process of getting started and how brilliantly Amisha kind of grew her mindset as her business goals changed. The thing that I love was that, taking this stance of not letting your inexperience hold you back, that there are so many ways that you can demonstrate authority when you don’t actually have it yet, which makes you look professional, which makes you look confident, which makes you look like you can just deliver tons of value in the fact that you can talk about the industry, you’re a part of an industry and you’re watching the trends and you’re seeing the wins. And you can translate that into how you can help your clients get wins. And also talking about developing your own process, you may not even realize that there is a process that you bring to the table.

Whether that is how you interact with your clients, how you tailor their information, how you can leverage their background and their positioning in a new way that maybe they haven’t thought of. Maybe that’s your secret sauce. But there’s something that everybody can bring to the table. We don’t just show up as unresponsive blobs. Everyone has something that they can bring. And when you incorporate that into how you position yourself in the marketplace and how you introduce yourself to clients, that bridges that inexperience gap so quickly. And I think that’s one thing that new copywriters especially have trouble engaging in, because we’re all looking at the surrounding landscape and seeing how our peers have succeeded and automatically positioning yourself in relation to our peers, rather than recognizing what you have to offer.

Rob:  Yeah. I had some very similar takeaways with those two things. Obviously, Amisha, she’s reaching out to these initial clients that she’s trying to connect with. They’re not even clients yet, right? They’re just people in the Facebook group, and she’s offering value. She’s demonstrating her expertise. And the impact of that is that she starts to create trust.

Nicole:  Yes.

Rob:  And people in the group see that she’s somebody who maybe she does know everything, but she knows some things. And she certainly knows more than a couple people in the group about the thing that she’s teaching about and that she’s talking about. And this isn’t just something that works in Facebook groups, we should be doing this on LinkedIn, we should be doing this in our pitches, our email outreach, when we’re talking about… Even on my podcast, or whatever it is, offer value, teach the things that you know help people without any expectation that that’s necessarily going to turn into a project. And as you do that, it starts to create trust among those that you’re talking to and then does turn into projects and long-term client relationships. And then you were also talking about how she’s bringing more to the table, she she doesn’t just show up as the copywriter. I know, she mentioned that we talked about this in the accelerator, but she doesn’t show up as an order taker, or as a vendor, where the client is saying, “I need web copy,” and she says, “Here’s the web copy.”

She’s actually looking at the entire project, she’s looking at what’s going on in the marketing, and she’s taking ownership, not just of the copy, but of the result that the client is trying to get. And so then she’s able to start suggesting, “Well, if you change the ad in this way, or if you change the way that you’re talking about your offer, if you add a bonus, or maybe you should add an upsell or down seller, maybe you’re going after the wrong audience.” We see these things as copywriters a lot of the time and it’s almost like we keep the secret to ourselves, because we don’t want to let the client know that they have an impending disaster, or a problem that’s going to… It’s not our problem, so we’re not going to mention it. But we can already see that this offer isn’t going to work because it doesn’t speak to the audience, or it’s not valuable enough for whatever. And we’re afraid to say that. And I love that she is an evangelist for taking ownership of the project.

Nicole:  Right. And that bridges… That gets back to what she was talking about, “I’m not going to position myself as an order taker anymore.”

Rob:  Yeah.

Nicole:  And the growth is in the strategy. Because at the end of the day, for good or for worse, the writing is a commodity. It’s what you bring in addition to that, that’s going to show where you’re going to position yourself in the marketplace. So, the instinct is to write a pitch that says, “I can do this, I can do this, I can do this, call me if you need me.” No, the strategic approach is, “I can do this, here’s how it benefits you. Here’s what you can be doing instead, I can put this together for you. Let’s get on a call. Oh, and also congratulations on this and the other.” So, the successful interaction is a little bit like improv where, “Yes and,” and you keep answering the question. Yes and. And elevating yourself past the commodified status writing.

Rob:  Yeah, beautifully said. I think that’s bang on. Before we leave off what she was doing in the very beginning of her business too, I just want to touch on, she kind of laughed about the price that she was charging. Obviously, we all have those cheap prices that we started out with. But I think the important thing to take away from that, is that some money when you’re just starting out is more important than good money, or great money. Now obviously, if you can get good money or great money, then get it for sure. But the very first thing that you need to do as business owners is to sell ourselves, to be able to prove the thing that we can do has value and then we can find clients for that. That’s more important than websites, it’s more important than even packages, pricing things correctly, being able to sell ourselves is critical. And so there should be no shame in doing an email for 50 bucks, or the first sales page for less than $1,000. There’s no shame in that, because you’re proving the concept.

And I think we can all forgive ourselves of those horrible pricing decisions that we made so long ago, or maybe more recently, if we’re just starting out. It’s just part of the process. And it’s okay.

Nicole:  And not only that, even those little projects, even those, I’m doing it to pay the bills projects, there are tiny bits of information that you can take away from that project that gives you the proof that starts to build the momentum. So, any project no matter how small has the potential to catapult you further.

Rob:  Totally. Yep, I agree. Okay. So let’s talk a little bit about case studies, because Amisha had a few thoughts about this. I know you’ve probably got a few thoughts about this, Nicole.

Nicole:  Oh, my goodness. I just love how she approached case studies so brilliantly as probably one of the most impactful ways to demonstrate your ability, your authority, the transformation that your clients can expect. And the best part is it’s not you tooting your own horn. It’s clients reading about other clients in other clients voices. So, it’s so impactful. And always come back to the phrase, you can’t read the label from inside the bottle. It’s darn near impossible to write your own case study because you are so steeped in it. And so having her have another very talented copywriter, be able to step back and approach the case study from an objective viewpoint and connect all the dots of which Amisha is a critical part of that, but is able to see past what Amisha brings to the table and bring those both ends together. I just thought was so brilliant.

Rob:  Yeah, having somebody help you with case studies, I think just puts it on a whole other plane. Kira and I have done that with Case Study Buddy, we’ve had their team help us talk about some of our programs. They do a great job. I know there are some really good case study writers within The Copywriter Club, including, as Amisha mentioned, among Harstine’s team. So, she does that with Amisha, but I think the real power of the case study, and you were saying this too, is that it’s not just a testimonial, it’s not just you tooting your horn. But again, it’s an opportunity to build trust, because you’re talking about a process, you’re talking about a really well done case study.It talks about the challenge, it talks about your process for solving the challenge, and it talks about the results if you have the results. You don’t have to actually include the results because the real power is in the process of solving the challenge.

And so, I’ve said this in several places, but I think that our blogs, those of us that have blogs and websites, they should be full of case studies. The work that we do write about, “Hey, this client came to me with this challenge, this was my thinking process, these are the ideas that I suggested, this is the one that we went forward with, this is how I executed it, this is what it looks like, this is the results.” And if we do that four or five times, now our blogs, not just, “Hey, here’s a key thing about copywriting.” But it’s selling us as experts in the thing that we do. It doesn’t have to be a blog, you can do case studies, you can add them to your proposals, you can add them wherever they belong in your marketing.

But case studies are, I think, underutilized and have so much power to help us move forward. So we’ve actually talked with other copywriters about creating case studies recently. So check out some of those back episodes as well. Okay, one last thing that I want to mention, you maybe have a couple more things, Nicole, but Amisha started talking a little bit about taking some time to think or to step away, because she knows enough, right? She doesn’t need another course or another thing, at least not this year. And so I want to ask the question, how do you know, if you know enough, and you don’t need the course? I was talking to somebody just yesterday about a sales page for an event. And I’m like, “I actually don’t usually want to go to the event, and the sales page is so good, I have to keep talking myself out of it every time I see this. And so, I know I don’t need it, but what’s that signal for you at least Nicole, where you know you don’t need another course and you can just start moving forward?

Nicole:  Well, speaking from the scorched remains in my credit card, I am not very judicious at this process. But I do think back to what Mike Kim was talking about, at some point, you’ve done your skill building. And you really have to step back and assess, “Do I need to build a skill? Or do I need coaching? Do I need direction? Do I need to build momentum through execution?” And that, to me is the pivotal difference. We’re all so good at skill building. The copywriting community as a whole is so gracious and so generous with their ideas and helping lift up others. But at some point, you need to really start taking a strategic direction to where you’re going to go, you’ve set these goals, these really great goals and skill building is not going to get you all the way there. At some point, you have to start working on execution and strategic thinking, and surrounding yourself with people who are two and three and four steps ahead of you, so you have some trajectory.

Rob:  Yeah, there are things that you can learn from a book or from a course. And then there are things that you can only learn from doing. That you can’t learn from taking a course or reading a book. And so, if you have read three or four books, you’ve taken three or four courses, and you’re thinking, “I need another course,” actually, what you should probably do is slow down and do for a little while, do the stuff that you’ve been learning. And that then helps you identify what the next hole is. And as Amisha was sharing her experience with joining a mastermind, where everybody else is so far ahead, that’s another way to… It’s like, “Okay, you’ve been doing the courses in the books, maybe it’s time…” As Kira and I like to say to be the dumbest person in the room to-

Nicole:  Absolutely.

Rob:  … surround yourself with people who are doing amazing things that it becomes challenging to you. It’s like, “Okay, I’ve got to step up my game to even feel comfortable in this room. I’ve got to be doing some things a little bit differently.” And there’s an opportunity, I think, for all of us to be able to join groups like that to help us level up.

Nicole:  Absolutely. And I’m going to toot the Copywriter accelerator and especially the think tank, is positioning yourself amongst incredible peers with incredible mentors in you and Kira. And there’s something about the synergy of you taking the skills that you’ve built on, but then having someone who’s invested in your success, just give you some ideas to find within yourself the momentum to move forward and grow.

Rob:  Oh, I may have to put this out and make it a testimonial in our sales page. That was nice of you to say that.

Nicole:  My work is done here.

Rob:  There’s no script for that. So, thank you for saying that. Anything else that you want to talk about that Amisha mentioned?

Nicole:  Again, talking about surrounding yourself with high achieving peers. You really can’t emphasize that enough. And that ties back to at the beginning of the interview when she’s talking about how you’re in a position of self doubt and insecurity and folding yourself into a community that’s going to challenge you with your best interests in mind. I just don’t think that you can say enough about that. And that helped her. I’m seeing in the big picture, how that helped her evolve from what she considered as a scarcity mindset into a mindset of growth and development. And that’s one important point about getting to that place.

Rob:  I love that. Yeah. Well said.

Nicole:  Let’s go back to your interview with Amisha and find out a bit more about the product she created this last year.

Rob:  Let’s talk about collaboration and what you’ve done with that in your business to grow?

Amisha:  Sure. So early this year, I decided that I’ve got this impossible goal, I’m going to need it no matter what, last year was really terrible, sucky professionally, personally, every other way, not just because of the coronavirus, right? But I wanted to ask myself, how can I create exponential value? What do I already know? And I have copywriters and I have taken all the courses, I’ve taken all the trainings, and I think a lot of us have. I was like, “This year, I’m okay for investing, but I don’t want to take on another course. I think I have enough.” Sometimes we get into this like, “I need one more course. And I think I’ll be great. And I’ll be…” It’s that imposter syndrome, whatever it is. So I said, “I’m not going to…” I made a very hard decision not to invest in any training this year. It was really hard to pass up on a lot of good stuff.

But I was like, “Nope, I already know enough.” I started there. I’m like, “I already know enough. But now, what can I do with what I know? And how can I create value for current and future clients that goes beyond what I’m already doing?” And that, Rob, I had to sit with that for days. So these are some of the ideas I came up with. These are some of the things that I have implemented since. So, a digital shop. So I created this in 90 days. And I was like, “Okay, I’m a service provider, I write emails to clients, non clients, people who want to pick my brain, so to speak all the time, sometimes I get these weird requests, and I am good at writing emails to them and communicating my intent.” I’ve got… Even if I go back to my early days, I pitch for jobs and pitch for different copywriting gigs.

And I could pitch clients, how can I take what I already know, what I’m already doing, and turn that into a way to get paid? So I was like, “Okay, I’m going to create my first product, it’s going to be the CEO, essential email scripts, 50 scripts. And these are all scripts that I use in my business. And I’m like, “I’m just going to put it out there on my website, I’m going to free marketing, go on Instagram, tell me a little tiny list and let Julie know that this is what I’m doing. And let’s see what happens.” And so that was one. I was like, “Okay, I’ve got the expertise, how can I leverage this to make some money?” So that was one thing I did? Okay, no big deal, got it done. Then I thought, “Okay, what else can I add to this digital shop?” I have a couple of ideas. I’m releasing two more products later this year.

And working on a new program that kind of has not been… It’s not touched upon very often, but I’m working on an outline that I’m going to be adding. So these are passive income products. Yes, that required a lot of marketing on my end, but I was like, “I already know this stuff. I do this in my business. Why am I not monetizing this?” Right? Sometimes you got to look like what are you already doing that you can monetize that goes beyond just working for a client passively?

What else am I doing? I’m leveraging my time by adding a new service that won’t have me doing the work because I’m going to subcontract another copywriter. We are in talks in discussion right now. It’s a white label service, but it’s in total alignment with what I’m offering clients. I was like, “Okay, I’ve been trained in this methodology, I don’t have the time to do it, but I know this other copywriter does. How about I just bring him on board, subcontracted, let him do it? And I free up my time, and it’s a great value add from my clients anyway. So what else can I do? How can I set up affiliate opportunities with other entrepreneurs who serve a similar audience, like service providers, but have 10X the reach that I do. So I’ve created like three affiliate relationships. One of them is Julie. I’m very proud that she’s a mentor today who’s backing me with my scripts.

I have a couple of other people who serve other service providers, huge audiences, but they find value in my product. So, they’re like, “Okay, we’ll sign up to be affiliates.” So this is kind of reaching other audiences bigger than mine. I don’t have the bandwidth and kind of seeing what else can I do? The other way, how can I collaborate with other copywriters to bring that extra logic in my copywriting process and 10X value for my clients? So for me, like I mentioned before, I brought in Melissa, to work on the research, like do the interviews, and strategize the big idea with me for every launch. And just this alone has build up my X factor positioning. I’m not a sole provider, I collaborated with other magnificent brains to add value to my client. And I mentioned this on my sales presentation like, “Hey, with me, you’re going to get me and a couple of other people who are amazing at what they do. And we brainstorm on the big idea for you, we do the research, we talk to your people, we create a messaging strategy and an offer strategy.

And if you’d like it, that’s when we start writing the copy.” We don’t just like, “Here you go, this is a launch,” and start writing copy. So just saying those things, and just adding those elements to my business, it makes it feel less like a freelancer, it feels more like a business. It’s like I’m thinking bigger, this is my brand, this is how I want to roll with all my projects.

Rob:  That seems to make sense too. Because you talk about your business as a we, right? You’re the copy crew. And so being able to bring in people to help as needed, whether it’s completely outsourcing or bringing people to take on part of a project seems to work. Do you have other members of your team that support the copywriting side of that? Or are you doing all of the management side of that?

Amisha:  At the moment, I’m the only one doing it, I would eventually like to get into the copy chiefing role. I would love that. It’s also control issues, I just haven’t been able to let go of the copywriting process completely. And I realized that’s just one of my thing that I have to get over. But I think I can be swayed easier this year, as opposed to the last few years where I’ve really held on to this idea that I’ve got to do all the copy myself. I feel less strongly about that, and I think I’m ready to step into the copy chiefing role. I’ve never done it before. But I’m curious to know how that… I’m excited actually. I’m like, “Okay, that’s the direction I have to go.” I am open to it, let’s just say so.

Rob:  Okay, that makes sense. So, you’ve told us a lot about the products you’ve created. What is a typical project? You mostly work on launches if I remember, right? What does that typically look like? How much are you charging for those kinds of projects?

Amisha:  So the launch is the most high touch service that I offer. The entire launch package is a shebang. It takes at least 10 weeks. And whenever someone gets in touch with me, if they want to work on a launch, they fill out this type form, it’s automatically triggered on my site when they express interest, and they fill it out. And on the type form, one of the questions, or I think one of the notes that I make is that launch packages cost at least 10K and above. So, the expectation is already set. And if they’re okay with it then that comes through, we have a quick 15 minute call just to let the prospect kind of feel like this is okay. And if budget seems like… I reiterate that this may be 10K plus, I don’t give them an exact number, timeline is typically 10 weeks, 10 to 12 weeks. And if those things are okay, then we move on to the sales presentation process. And that’s where I describe everything and I give them a solid number. But yeah, a launch package takes me usually at least 10 weeks.

Rob:  And what’s happening during that time. Are you just doing one project at a time? Or can you stack more than one launch project because the way that you stagger the things that are happening throughout the launch?

Amisha:  Oh, that’s a great question. I currently don’t take on more than two copy launch clients, because I’m still doing a lot of the copywriting myself. But what has helped me, is because I brought Melissa in, and typically market research takes a good couple, at least four weeks. And at that time, if she is doing interviews and putting together a messaging strategy, that time I’m not writing, I have that time to maybe take on another copy client and get that going or finish writing up another project. But I typically don’t take more than two clients at a time. That’s the bandwidth right now. But things could change if I bring on another junior copywriter where I start getting into the copy chiefing role. But it’s also because I want to protect my personal time. I think launches take a lot of my time and a lot of my mental bandwidth. So, I think two at a time is okay.

Typically, ideally, I’d like to get to a stage in my career where in a year I’m working with more than 10 clients, 10 launches at a time. I think that’s a number I’m happy with.

Rob:  10 launches in a year.

Amisha:  Yeah. I will be okay. In entire… Yeah.

Rob:  Okay, cool. Yeah. And when I do the math, that’s a pretty good payday at the end of the year. That’s pretty good. So, earlier you mentioned that you had some possible goal, this is your year for impossible goals. Tell us about that. And what is an impossible in your mind? What are impossible goals as opposed to smart goals, or some other kind of goal?

Amisha:  Yeah, great question. So the impossible goal for me, well started this year after not so great last year, obviously. I tried on a few things didn’t work, worked on projects that didn’t take off. I took things way too personally, kind of created a major setback. But looking back, I realized these were stepping stones to something bigger. And this year, I decided, I just decided that I’m going to meet and exceed possibly my first six figure goal. All these years, I’ve always shied away from that, I have never got to that number, that big milestone for me. And for me, it’s always seemed impossible. And I always say this, if you’re going to set a goal, it needs to freak you out a little bit, and me not attaining six figures has kind of freaked me out about it. I’ve had a lot of mindset issues, like maybe I’m not good enough, maybe it’s not for me, maybe I have to work extremely hard.

It’s impossible, I can’t do that, I have only made so much money and I don’t think I can think beyond that. But for me, so this year was like, “No, no, that’s your impossible goal, you’re going to meet and possibly even exceed.” And I think if I’m doing my math right so far, I think I may exceed that goal this year. And I’m like, “This is going to be my impossible goal.” It’s impossible, because my brain is going to tell me I can’t do it, and I’m okay with that. I know that mentally. And I’m just going to do whatever I can to get there. And yeah, I’ve just reframed my brain. I’m just telling myself that I’m going to fail multiple times just to get there. Because usually, and this is what has worked for me. When you’re looking to achieve success every step of the way, you’re looking for a win some kind of validation.

And I’ve been very much in that area for the longest time. I need to have a win every time, I need to have that validation. And there’s nothing wrong with that, you’re looking for every sort of possible win. That’s what I was doing. But I became way too attached to the wings. If I was trying something, I put too much pressure on myself that it had to work. Otherwise, it’s just going to undermine my self worth. I didn’t say that, but I knew it would. I was very messed up. It was really unhealthy, I was really attached to the wins all the time, I’ve got to win. And last year showed me that I didn’t win all the time, I had clients who backed out, I had clients who launches never took off. I had failures. I was trying to be the control and I could not be the control on one of my clients sales pages. It was disappointment after disappointment.

So what I told myself this year, is I’m going to try a bunch of things, I don’t care what it is, every quarter, mostly things outside of my comfort zone, and I’ve divided my financial goals into quarters, and for each quarter, I decided what I’m going to do to get there. How many times, I’m not going to look for the wins, I’m just going to look for the fails. How many times am I going to fail? And what do those failures or lessons mean? And I’m going to just see how much I’ve grown. So I can share some fails I’ve had, like for example-

Rob:  Yeah. Let’s talk about some of those failures. And then I’m also interested in thinking through or talking about that 90 day goal setting process as you break it into quarters how you’re thinking through that. But let’s start with the failures.

Amisha:  Yeah. This is kind of related to that question, 90 day goals. So I have a financial goal. That’s what I told myself, January 1st, I have this financial goal, I’ve got to make 100K or exceed that goal, and I’m going to put that into quarters, right? So every quarter, this is the map, this is how much I’m going to make. And what are the ways I’m going to get there? How am I going to get there? So, some of the fails I’ve had, I would pitch 10 podcasts in Q1, I got accepted to only one. I co pitched 12 clients whom I really wanted to work with this was after doing a lot of research, stocking them, listening to them on podcasts, I got only two to say yes. Then I set the intention of creating 16 value posts from my blog on my website. And I’m historically bad in this area because I never released content, I don’t talk or email my list.

And I was like, I got to change that, I’ve got to start building my list and serve some of the people who are in there. Because I was like, if I’m going to create a digital shop, and people are buying, they’re going to get on my list. And if I’m not releasing any content, that’s terrible, I need to take care of them. So start communicating with my list. So, I set the intention, Q1 and Q2, I’m going to have 16 value posts of my blog on my website. And so far when I look back I would have done 10, so I know I failed in that area. I didn’t manage my time. So, yeah. I pitched two digital publications, I got into one, I reached out to all my past clients the last two, three years and pitched an opportunity to work with them again and all them rejected me. Very hard to take, but I was like, “You know what? I’ve taken the action, I’ve put myself out there instead of being in this reactive mode and feeling scared all the time and hoping things get better.”

And I’m like, “It’s not going to work, I have to just start doing things.” And this is a concept that I’ve learned at the life coach school, they talk about the impossible goal, divide your financial goal, and then have these fails, and it doesn’t matter. Don’t look for the wins, it’s great. But fail your way to success. I was like, “Okay, I’ve never tried this idea before, let me just fail myself miserably to success. And I’ve done that. And every quarter, I have to set new fail that I’m willing to do. So, yeah.

Rob:  I like that. So, you mentioned a lot of the fails, let’s flip that around. Okay, in being willing to fail, what are the successes that you’ve had along the way?

Amisha:  What are the successes have had? Okay, so the two cool pitch clients that I did have, they have come back to give me more work and work on other launches within their company to do other stuff in copywriting, like rewrite copy for their website. So, that has kind of reduced my marketing efforts, because I don’t have to kind of consistently look for clients, because these were two really great clients who wanted to keep me on for their other programs that I got to work on other things, really understood the client and really worked with them. What else has that created? I don’t know. This is kind of the universe saying, “Okay, you’re putting out so much of action this is where the good stuff is coming.”

One of the podcasts that I was on last year, someone heard me on that podcast, some listener, and he reached out, filled an inquiry form on my website, we had a VIP day where I charged, made good money out of that, was a couple of hours of consult, but that just came from nowhere. That was because I had taken the action to start pitching podcasts. That podcast was from last year, but still. So, things like that, kind of people coming out of the woodwork. And then of course, setting up my digital shop, I get a sale every now and then in my digital shop on my stripe notifications, that’s great. I’m like, “Okay, I just had this idea that I should do this.” And I did it and now it’s there. I took the time to do it, I didn’t know if I was going to succeed or not. But I did it. That’s income coming in. And yeah, it’s just different things.

I have some great clients that I’m working with today, some are referrals, and some are the same clients, it’s kind of like a repeat client. So it’s kind of reduced my marketing to an extent. And doing other things like upping my visibility, trying to pitch more podcasts, and I still get rejected. I got rejected even yesterday for another podcast that I pitched. And then I got accepted on a third one. So, it’s kind of like just taking this consistent action, people finding me, like, “Hey, I heard you on Julie’s. I saw you on Julie’s email list, you were feature there. I heard you on this podcast somewhere here.” So it’s kind of a snowball effect now, because of all these actions I took. So, yeah.

Rob:  Yeah. Obviously, there’s a lot of good that comes out of consistent effort and you may fail 90% of the time. But if you succeed 10% of the time, that starts to add up to the point where you need to fail less. But it seems to me like the hardest part of this is the mindset here. Because when you get told no like you said by all of your former clients, or you get rejected, it’s really hard to sit down the next week and say, “Well, I’m going to go do this all over again, instead of changing direction and doing something completely different.” So how have you kind of navigated that minefield?

Amisha:  Well, initially, when I would get a rejection, it was because something is not good enough, or I need another course, that’s been my default. I will just go and buy another course. Like, “Hey, maybe if I learned this skill, maybe somebody would hire me. Maybe I would be more appealing to someone.” But now, I burned that bridge. I have told myself, I cannot buy a course this year and I have to do what I have whatever I have. And it’s tough. Yeah. And if I hear a no, I’m like, “Okay, this person said no, it’s going to stink, I’m going to let that sit for a while even a day to get over it. And then tomorrow, all right, who else can I pitch?” Right? That’s what I’m telling myself. “One person said no, the other person said okay.”

So I tell myself, “Okay, what’s next? Or who’s next?” I just have to get in the game because I’m like, “This is…” And it’s also having a compelling reason, right? I told myself when I set my impossible goal, “I’m going to meet this goal no matter what.” And the other thing I’m doing, which is sort of a vulnerable thing, I am emailing my list later this month, and sharing the story with them. So far, whenever I’ve emailed my list, it’s like, “Hey, there’s this copy tip that you can use to boost conversions or this is what we did with the other client.”

And it’s always been copy conversion related tips and hacks, but for the first time, I was like, “Okay, this month, on a weekend, every month, one weekend a month, I’m going to let my list know that this is my impossible goal.” And now I’m accountable to them, I have to do this. So it’s kind of when you release that intention like I’m doing this right now, I’m sharing this with you, it kind of sets that accountability in that I’ve got to keep persisting, keep going after it. I’ve told people like, I can’t fall flat on my face. But even if I don’t achieve it, that’s okay, I’ve got a list… I’ve documented all the ways that I can fail, from Q1, Q2, Q3, and all those things are telling me what I can do what I can not. And eventually, I know I’ll get there.

I don’t know if I’m going to get there by end of December, but it’s all the other things that have happened for me. It’s showing me who I really am. Can I really resist the lure of another copy training or a course or something to fix the problem? Because the problem really is within me, I just need to sit with myself and say, “Okay, what can I do with what I already have?” I’ll give you an example. I have done a lot of audits this year. A copy tune up is what I call it, it’s a service that I offer. That I do this and… Not to say that this is a viable thing, but I haven’t seen a lot of programs or courses out there that teach particularly how to do audits. So I’m like, “Okay, maybe it’s not a very high end thing. But maybe I can teach service providers how to do an audit. ” It’s something I use in my business, hey, why not serve this particular audience and help them do an audit?

I’ve really forced myself to look within. What am I already doing in my business? What can I do to teach or change or help people in their journeys and without buying another course, without listening to another training or any of that stuff? So, it’s been constraints. The theory of constraints works here. I’ve really constrained myself, this is what I’m going to do.

Rob:  And it’s funny that you asked about audits, because I specifically wanted to… That you mentioned audits, because I specifically wanted to ask you about how is it that you’re using audits in your business, and what does that include? So, without giving us an entire training on how do you make this work in your business, tell us what does your audit include? How much are you charging for it? And what’s the deliverable to the client that makes it worthwhile for them?

Amisha:  So the audit, it’s a 997 price points, it’s a week long thing. It’s very simple prospect finds me online, they’ll fill in an inquiry form, everything looks good, they get an invoice, it’s a prepaid thing. I perform the audit and send them a video recording, it’s done within a week. And typically I get to do audits on sales pages. They’ll say, “Hey, this is a sales page, I don’t know if it’s good, can you take a look at it?” And that’s where I come in and just perform the audit.

Rob:  And when you do that deliverable, you send the video, are you making recommendations that then lead to more work for yourself, or is it simply just improve the headline, I would change the call to action? I think you need more examples of social proof. Are you just giving them ideas? Are you using it as a launchpad to more work?

Amisha:  Both. I give them… I tell them… So, I have an outline of what a sales page outline is. And I think every copywriter has that, right? That framework, that outline that this is what’s missing, this is not what’s not missing. I tell them, these are the gaps I’m seeing, this is where I don’t… This is what needs to be strengthened. I kind of even rewrite a small section of their sales page, like, “Hey…” And the easiest one that comes to mind is guaranteed. They usually kind of like have a sucky guarantee anyway. So I’m like, “This is how I rewrite your guarantee.” I give them a couple of options for a headline and couple of options for cross heads. I include all of that, in addition to telling them what’s missing. And they like that, they find a lot of value in that. And sometimes that leads to like, “Hey, this was great. Can you just write the sales page for us? And can you just work on this launch?” So it’s kind of like that tool to get more work. But yeah.

Rob:  Okay. So, I know we talked a lot about the goals you have to fail more. So, this might be kind of repeating that a little bit, but what have you struggled with the most in your business? Where is it that you just… It’s always a struggle. And I don’t know if it’s a place where you need help, or it’s something that you’re continually working on?

Amisha:  I think my struggle is switching between the employee and the boss hat. I do a lot… A lot of my work is done for you stuff, and then I had to switch to my marketing hat to market my business, and that can be exhausting at times. That’s why I was not paying attention to my list. And that way, there was that intention that, “Hey, I need to email my list more, I need to give them value more, I need to share my story more.” So, that’s hard to do in a week, but it’s still a struggle for me. Yeah, so I think switching between those two hats. And the other thing would be project management. I’m not the most organized person. So this is a struggle for me. I’m learning how to delegate more, which is also a struggle because I haven’t done that much in years past.

I do have control issues. So, kind of like, yeah. Where can I delegate more? Where can I ask for more help? How can I not have my VA reach out to the client and ask for the testimonials? Well, I don’t need to do that. Let someone else take care of that for me. So, I’m learning and I don’t think I’ll always be perfect. But time management is a problem.

Rob:  Okay, fair enough. It sounds like you struggle with the same things I struggle with, which is… Yeah, it’s an eternal struggle. And I know you mentioned working with leaders like Julie, some of the other things that you’ve done in your business that have made a big difference, is there anything else that’s really helped you level up that you haven’t mentioned?

Amisha:  I just keep going back to this. It’s… And cheesy as it sounds, it’s really kind of just emotional management. I think reading more of those books, more than business, I think I’ve been reading a lot more and listening to personal development books, and then kind of trying to manage my mind. Because as a service provider, as an entrepreneur, we’re kind of like, one day is great, the next day is not so great. We can’t take things way too personally. And that was me last year. And that was a decision I wanted to make. I’m going to control my emotions better, because if I don’t, I just go downhill, and it’s not really good for my business. So, yeah, kind of schedule days for having fun, doing things which are non copy related, have friends who are not from the business world, kind of like you know-

Rob:  That’s a great idea.

Amisha:  It’s kind of exhausting talking about an Instagram reel or a marketing strategy. I will talk to someone who’s a kindergarten teacher who has different challenges. It gives you perspective, like, “Hey, yeah, this is the other side. This is how non entrepreneurs think.” And it’s nice, it’s refreshing. So, I schedule stuff like that for me to do. Yeah. And also try not to rely too much on the cookie cutter strategies. If something is not working, if a funnel is not working, don’t buy a course or don’t try to fix it. It’s okay, look for a way around and look for a way how would you do things differently? Because even the best of the best gurus, mentors, nobody has the answers. Sometimes even they may offer that to you, it may just not work for you.

And I personally experienced that myself. So, I’ve always had to find a way around to like, “Okay, how can I tweak this to make it more fit my style?” So, don’t be afraid to try that once and for all, once in a while. Don’t always rely on cookie cutter strategies. Yeah. Find what’s working for you.

Rob:  Awesome. I know you mentioned a couple of products that you’re developing and getting ready to sell. What’s next for you and your business? What’s the big thing coming up?

Amisha:  Adding more products to the digital shop, for sure. I’m very excited about that. Subcontracting this new amazing service that I am thinking of launching, which I think will help my clients tremendously, will free up my time, as well. It’s a new service, I’m still in discussion with that. And possibly outlining a new product, which I don’t know if it’s going to be more of a course, may not be because I hate courses. Or maybe like a den with you sort of a thing. I’m still… It’s still in the works. I haven’t outlined it, but it’s exciting. And I want to offer it to the service provider community more than the copywriters. And yeah, definitely still work on launches. So…

Rob:  Thanks, Amisha. This was fantastic. I really appreciate you coming on the show.

Amisha:  Awesome. Thank you. It’s been one of my dreams to be on the TCC podcast and it’s a dream come true. I can finally check this off my list.

Rob:  So, that’s the end of our interview with Amisha Shrimanker. Before we go though, I think that there are just a couple more things that we said I want to touch on. I’m guessing Nicole, you’ve got a couple of things that jumped out at you as well. Let me start where Amisha’s talking about this idea of selling all of these scripts that she’s using in her business. So this is an idea, we’ve talked about it before. Mike Kim talked about it at TCC IRL 2020, the last event that was held before the whole world shut down. This idea of selling your sawdust. There’s all these things that we do in our business and they have value that are parts of projects that we’re doing but they’re not the final deliverable for our client, but they still have value. And there are ways to sell that stuff. So, the phrase sell your sawdust comes from the fact when you’re creating lumber at the lumber mill, you have the sawdust that is created and there are uses for the sawdust even though that’s not the product that you were hired to actually create.

Or I’ve shared once or twice this, the story of the guys who founded Ore-Ida, they’re making french fries. And as you’re trimming potatoes into French fries, you get all these little tiny pieces of potatoes that are leftover, literally thousands of pounds of these things. And they had an engineer on their team who just drilled some holes in a board, started putting these potato peelings in and he created the tater tot. And tater tots now sell millions, maybe even hundreds of millions. I don’t know what the tater tot market is. But it’s this incredibly valuable product. And it started as an accident. And there are things in our businesses that we can do like that. And so I just love that Amisha found these scripts that she’s using in her business, and found a way to sell them to her audience. And this is something that’s even more valuable.

Of course, you can sell scripts and templates and things to other copywriters, but the real value is in selling them in a niche. And if you’re talking to people who can’t write their own stuff, or are not as good as we are as copywriters. You can create email templates, you can create website templates, whatever they are for a niche, and it can become a very nice piece of your business.

Nicole:  And not just as passive income or industry facing things, but also selling your sawdust for your clients that maybe you can package some of the things that you do behind the scenes as a value add that justifies your price positioning, even so much more. If it’s how you package your research, how you… If you have industry analysis, how can you include those? Little things that will end up being surprised and delight, but actually carry a ton of value, and you have to do them anyway. So why not use that to your advantage?

Rob:  Yeah, yeah, totally. And then the other thing that I think is genius in what Amisha is doing, it goes back to what we talked about the first time we broke in, is she’s in these groups, these masterminds, where she’s exposed herself to people who can help her. And then she asks them to share this product. So, she’s invested in their programs. Obviously, there’s some reciprocity here. And if you’ve got a product that you can share to an audience, where you’ve connected with another guru or some kind of an expert in that audience. There’s this awesome thing that starts to happen, where they’re selling your things for you, and that just grows your business too. And so, I know a lot of people are like, “Well, why would I ever invest in a coach or a mastermind group? I don’t need the stuff that we always talk about, why it’s so great.” But there’s one way right there, referrals, additional traffic, additional sales, if you’ve got things that they can share out with their audiences.

Okay. Let me also mention because we lead with this in the intro, but this whole idea of giving yourself permission to fail and setting impossible goals. I love this. Impossible goals is something that Kira and I have adopted when we’re talking with people we coach, because so often we have goals, and we have things that we want to achieve in our businesses, but having somebody point out and say, “Yeah, you could do that, or what if you double that? What would you have to do differently in your business in order to do that?” And Amisha’s approach is a little bit different, trying to think out, “Okay, what are the 12 pitches that I can send, that maybe they’re all going to fail?” Let me shoot higher than I normally would. And of course, a lot of them are going to fail, but occasionally one of them breaks through.

And so giving yourself permission to fail, but going after it anyway, and having failure be the goal instead of success, I think it just changes the… It changes the metric a little bit, or changes the experience a little bit so that failure no longer feels like failure, it feels like success. And so, you’re almost cheating the system a little bit. Amisha’s cheating the system a little bit by approaching it this way. And I love it. I think it’s so smart.

Nicole:  Absolutely. I was blown away by the idea of fail faster. And it doubles back into the way that she has been working on her mindset, because yes, she’s going to fail. But in every fail, there’s a win. She wouldn’t have done… She wouldn’t have put herself out there if she hadn’t given herself permission to fail. And I think that’s something that a lot of us, especially when you’re new in the industry, you’re so worried about racking up those wins and getting the validation. And when you start to rely on that, the lack of momentum can be discouraging, or maybe you just throw in the towel and go work at Target, which is not necessarily a bad thing. But reframing the fact that the success comes from the doing, and measuring your worth by the fact that you are making the attempt rather than having the success. I was so blown away by that idea. And I’m so impressed with how she is giving herself metrics that she knows that it’s very likely that she’s not going to succeed. And that doesn’t stop her from trying.

Rob:  Yeah. I think the takeaway for me here is that if my goals aren’t freaking me out just a little bit, maybe I need to reset my goals. Even if they fail hard, they should probably freak me out. And it’s not about achieving the goal necessarily. It’s about doing things differently that move you in the right direction, and the amazing things that can happen out of that process.

Nicole:  And I also loved the way that she reframed the nos. So the nos, once you stop striving for the gold stars, and I’m the last person who should be talking about this. But once you stop reaching for the gold stars, the no becomes a… This is not a good fit, not you’re not a good person. And changing that perspective gives you so much more freedom to try to even make the attempt regardless of the outcome. I just loved that so much.

Rob:  Yeah. So often in business, rejection is part of doing business. And it’s not because somebody doesn’t like you, it’s almost never personal, but it always feels personal. And so being able to reframe that in a way that works, I think is really important. I want to say one other thing going back to… It is almost just like an offhand remark that Amisha mentioned. But she talked about her sales presentation when she gets into her sales presentation. And then she’s basically said, “What I’m doing is explaining the process of working with me.” And I think this is a really important point that a lot of people go into a call with a client thinking, “Well, I’ve got to sell them on working with me, I’ve got to sell them on my credentials, or my abilities, or my success or whatever.” And so much more effective to just talk about what you do and to ask questions that basically start to get inside your client’s business.

And I know we didn’t dwell on it in the interview. But as I was looking back over the things we talked about, she said, we set the sales presentation, which is my process, and that is the best way to do a sales call. So another, just a little takeaway that I think is definitely worth calling out.

Nicole:  Yeah, it’s moving the goalposts again, the win is not closing the sale. The win is determining the fit.

Rob:  Yeah, there you go. There you go. That’s brilliant. See, that’s why we brought you on Nicole. Say things even better than I can.

Nicole:  It’s the decodering in me.

Rob:  So we want to thank Amisha Shrimanker for joining us on the podcast to talk about her business, her goals, all the things she’s done to grow this last year. If you want to connect with Amisha, check out or DM her on Instagram. And she sometimes hangs out in The Copywriter Club groups, you can check her out in the free group, as well as I believe in the underground. So look for her online wherever your best copywriting groups are found.

Nicole:  That’s the end of this episode of The copywriter Club podcast. The intro music was composed by copywriter and songwriter Addison Rice, the outro and favorite ear one was composed by copywriter and songwriter David Muntner. If you’ve enjoyed what you’ve heard, please visit Apple Podcasts to leave your review of the show. And if you didn’t like it, don’t bother, it’s fine. Thanks for listening, and we’ll see you next week.

Rob:  Thanks Nicole, for joining me and thanks everybody. We’ll see you next week.



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