TCC Podcast #140: All About The Copywriter Underground with Kira and Rob - The Copywriter Club
TCC Podcast #140: All About The Copywriter Underground with Kira and Rob

Thinking about joining a membership community for copywriters? This episode may help you make the decision to jump. For the 140th episode of The Copywriter Club Podcast, Kira and Rob talk about The Copywriter Underground—what it includes and what you can expect when you join. And so it just isn’t us talking about a thing we made, we asked six members to join us and share their experience. The result is an episode that is a bit longer than what we usually share, but it was interesting to hear some of the things Underground members shared about their experience. Here’s what we covered:
•  what has surprised us the most since launching The Underground
•  what The Copywriter Underground includes (there’s a lot)
•  how The Underground is going to change this July 1st—important if you’ve been thinking of trying it out
•  how The Underground has helped members like Amy Jones, Derek Hambrick, Mladden Stojanović, Renae Rockwell, Emily Zoscak, and Natalie Smithson

Like we said, this one is different. It’s not a full-on sales pitch, but it is all about this community that we love. To hear more about it, click the play button below, or download the episode to your podcast player. Or to read the transcript, simply scroll down.


The people and stuff we mentioned on the show:

David Garfinkel
Kira’s website
Rob’s website
The Copywriter Club Facebook Group
The Copywriter Underground
Intro: Content (for now)
Outro: Gravity


Full Transcript:

Rob:   This podcast is sponsored by The Copywriter Underground.

Kira:   It’s our new membership, designed for you, to help you attract more clients and hit 10k a month, consistently.

Rob:   For more information or to sign up, go to

Kira:   Hey Rob.

Rob:   Hey Kira, how’s it going?

Kira:   It’s great. It’s great.

Rob:   We do not have an intro prepared for this episode, because we don’t have a guest today. Well, we actually have six guests today, but not, this is a different kind of episode. We’ve never really done this before, and I think we were talking the other day about The Underground and we thought, you know, a lot of people ask us about what’s going on in The Underground or what it is and they have questions. And so we thought, let’s just go really deep on what’s in The Underground, what we do there, and ask some of our members of The Underground what their experience is like, just so that people have a really good idea of what it is and how it can help somebody in their copywriting journey.

Kira:   Yeah. So this is fun, because you’ll actually hear the voices of the members. And we lovingly call them our moles. I don’t know who started that, we think it was Justin Blackman, who coined the term. But our members seem to be very happy being called moles. So we will hear their voices as they talk through their experience in The Underground, which we haven’t really shared before. And then Rob and I will just talk through what we’ve learned from running The Underground since September, right? Is that when we launched it?

Rob:   Yeah, we launched it in September and it’s been going now for seven or eight months. It’s grown to almost 200 people. And we’re actually going to close the doors to new members here in the near future, we’ve got a few weeks before that happens. But we’ll talk a little bit about that as well, and the change behind that. So Kira, you know, let’s, what’s your experience been in The Underground so far? Like what has surprised you, what were you expecting and how has it turned out maybe differently or even better than what you expected?

Kira:   Yeah. So I think so far what has surprised me the most is that the community aspect is more important than anything else. Then the trainings we create, live trainings in there, there’s a ton of great templates and resources and scripts. Especially like, we add stuff from our own businesses that we use, and that’s all been great, and the members use that. But I guess I have been surprised at how many members really are sticking around and growing their businesses and gaining confidence from each other and the community aspect. Which is great, because that’s what a membership is all about. But until you start it and see it unfold, you don’t really know what the members will take out of it, and you don’t know if a community is going to work or not if people will connect. There are parts of that you can control and help, but also part of that is just the people you’re attracting, and if it’s working or not. So I’d say that probably surprised me the most. What about you, Rob?

Rob:   Yeah, I agree. And I think I’ve been surprised as well as to how strong that community is. It feels a lot like The Copywriter Club when we first started out.

Kira:   Yeah.

Rob:   With just a couple hundred members, and the camaraderie, the people supporting each other and helping, you know, with questions and copy reviews and holding each other accountable. In fact we tried to structure some of the things that we started creating for The Underground to help support that. So we added things like accountability groups and copy review groups and those kinds of things. The other thing that really surprised me, I knew that it was going to be good, but just the excitement that happens every time we send out a newsletter or that we have a live training, the reactions to that, it’s just overwhelmingly positive. And that’s actually been really gratifying, because we knew we had some really good things to share, but knowing that people are actually taking that and using it in their business in smart ways is just fun to see, you know, as people use the things that we’re sharing to grow and to do more than what we even thought people would use it for.

Kira:   Yeah, and that makes me think of, you know, what else has surprised me is just how the members are willing to share their own resources. So forget about what we share in there, you know, month to month. But I just have seen so many members support each other with copy feedback or just like, ‘Hey, does anybody have a process for this? Or a template for this? Or an example of this?’ And people ask and then people show up and provide it, because I think there’s this element of trust in the group from our core members, from new members that step in, and there’s just a really good tone of sharing and openness, and again it’s something that we can try to create from the beginning but I think it’s just, we’ve got the right people in there with the right attitude, so again it’s like this willingness to share and support each other. Which, that’s just, that’s the place you want to be, right?

Rob:   Yeah. Absolutely. So maybe we should just talk through like, all of the things that are in there so people get an understanding of what we’re talking about here, and then ask a few members what they think and what their experience has been.

Kira:   Yeah, so this is funny because I feel like you and I talk about this a lot. There is a lot in The Underground and I think our concern sometimes is that maybe there’s too much, right? You don’t want to overwhelm anyone that’s in there. But we will run through what’s currently in there, and you can kind of pick and choose what is helpful to you. So what I love, and I know you love, Rob, is the monthly newsletter that we mail to everyone’s home. And it’s something that I love, when I receive it, even though, you know, we know what it says. We’re working on it together. And you put in so much work into those. But every time I see it, you know, in my mailbox or on my stairs I get so excited. Even today, I just got mine for this month, all about proposals and what you should include in your proposal. So we do send that monthly newsletter that covers different topics and it’s really meaty, and I’d say that’s very useful. So I don’t know if you want to talk more about like, the topics that we’ve included so far. If you want to get into the weeds there.

Rob:   We’ve covered a lot of different things, you know, when we launched The Underground we said that it was going to focused on marketing, on copywriting, and on mindset. And we’ve touched on all of those things at different times with the newsletter, so we have, you know, we’ve talked really in depth about adding proof to your copy. And you know, how do you demonstrate that what you’re saying is true. We’ve talked, like you just mentioned the latest one all about proposals. And a whole bunch of ideas for improving your proposals, well beyond what I think most people send out. And we even shared some of our, some of the things that we did, we used to do in our businesses, and the bad things that we did with our proposals when we first started out. And what we’ve done to change our own proposals.

And then lots of ideas for, you know, how other people can improve them, even beyond some of the things that we do. We’ve talked about mindset issues, like self care and how do you give yourself time off, and how do you take care of yourself? We’ve talked about marketing your business and, you know, how better ways for getting out in front of your clients. So it’s really, it seems like a really cool tool, and it’s one of the things that we get the most feedback about, certainly in the group every time an issue hits peoples’ mailboxes. They start sharing photos of them reading the newsletter in cafes or sitting there with their pets or, Derek Hambrick even mentioned at one point that his reading the newsletter in a bar in Germany got him a free drink. And we’re still waiting to hear the whole story on that. So, but yeah. It’s kind of fun.

And then you mentioned the community, we have a private Facebook group for members only of The Underground, and it is a really cool group. You know, there’s just so much going on in there, and there’s the opportunity there to share and to learn and to grow and get to know each other has been awesome.

Kira:   Yeah. And we spend a lot of time in there, so it’s not to say that we don’t overpromise, and we don’t say that we’ll answer all of your questions because that’s ridiculous. But Rob and I are in there a lot. And we even have days where it’s just like, ask us anything, and we’re very open and transparent with everything in those conversations.

And just to go back to the newsletter, I think what’s cool about the newsletter is it’s a way for all the members to have the same language and vocabulary, because we’re talking about the same topics at the same time, so we all have this reference point from the various newsletters that are in the membership. So it’s just common knowledge that we can discuss and go deeper into in the community.

So beyond the private community, we also have accountability and copy review groups that we organize. We don’t host those calls, but we do put you in groups so you can have a more intimate group to connect with, to get copy reviews. And some of those groups have been going for a while. And have been very supportive of each other. So we do organize that. And what else, Rob?

Rob:   Yeah, there are other calls and trainings that we do. So I know one of your favorite things is the hot seat, so we’ve got some great feedback from members about those. And how it has been game changing for a few people, but we do a monthly hot seat call where anybody can jump onto the call and share a challenge that they are dealing with in their business, and then you and I will give our feedback and our thoughts.

And then also other members of the group will join in on the comments and make a lot of helpful suggestions about things that they’ve tried, things that have worked in their business. So that’s really cool. Along with those hot seat calls we’ve done some other kinds of calls, you know, we’ve done website audits for a few writers who are in the group and want feedback on what’s going on, on their websites. And the tools that they’re using to find their clients, so we’ve done that.

We did a role play call where we kind of role played a few sales calls and worked with a couple of writers who were struggling with how they handled their sales calls, and we got some amazing feedback on that as well, that people really enjoyed seeing other people talking through the sales call. We’ve done some ask us anything threads, like you mentioned, where people will tag us or we’ll jump in there for a day or two and just answer any question. And we’re actually going to be trying something else new here and putting a panel together in the next couple weeks to talk about some interesting subjects as well. So we may be doing more of that in the future. So lots of training that goes on in the group, and helping out, you know, throughout the month.

Kira:   Right. So also all this is live, for the most part. So we want to help the members engage with each other, so it’s not just that we’re teaching during the training, it’s that you have the opportunity to chat with other members while we’re actually running through live trainings. So often times our members are asking each other questions and kind of diving deeper into the topics we’re talking about while we’re actually teaching and sharing, which is really fun too.

So we do have live trainings that we share in the dashboard, and a couple of mine that are favorites that we’ve shared so far is finding your X factor and finding out how to position yourself and your business. Also, how to develop a framework that sells. We talk a lot about frameworks in The Underground. And Rob, what would you say are some of your favorite trainings?

Rob:   Yeah. One of the trainings we actually didn’t create for The Underground, but we put it into the dashboard so people can review it, is a call that you and I did with Jack Ford and Joe Schriefer talking about lead types. And the kinds of, or the different ways that you can start a sales message and the customer state of mind and when each lead is appropriate for the situation you’re in. And I really, really like that training. It’s really good.

I also really enjoyed, surprisingly maybe, the sales calls training that we’ve done. And the things that we do on our sales calls, either prospecting calls or actually through the onboarding process. And there’s a lot of really good ideas for how to improve those so that you close more sales.

Kira:   We also invite guests to run trainings in the group. There are definitely topics that we feel, you know, someone else could share and so we bring in guest experts like David Garfinkel, who ran a training on how to edit sales copy. And we have a couple upcoming ones that we can mention in a little bit, but we definitely rely on our network of experts to help you tackle new topics as well.

Rob:   Yeah. And then you mentioned earlier on that there’s a whole bunch of templates and different things that we’ve provided. A lot of times people will ask in the group, ‘I have this kind of a problem. What do I say to the client?’ And so we’ll help script out some ideas for people and the way that they’ll respond. So there’s this templates and scripts that people can use in their own businesses, just for those kinds of situations that sometimes are a little bit out of the ordinary or, you know, just they haven’t dealt with before and they want some advice from people who’ve been through that before. So those are there as well.

And then another thing that happens a lot in the group is lead sharing. I saw one just this morning, you know, before we started recording. Somebody had popped in a lead that they saw but, yeah, people will have projects come their way and they want to trade with copywriters that they know can help take these clients that they’re not able to take, whether they’re old contacts or whether it’s people just reaching out and they’re passing them on because it’s not a fit from a niche standpoint or from a deliverable standpoint. And so sharing of leads happens quite a bit in the group as well.

Kira:   Yeah. And we can actually, you can hear from Renae Rockwell, one of our members, about her story about gaining a really large project, I think it was 15k, I’m not quite sure of the exact number, but she found the lead. The lead was shared inside The Underground, and she stepped into this large project and worked with some really great colleagues on this project she’s working on right now. So you can hear more about Renae’s story, too.

Rob:   So Kira, let’s talk a little bit then about the templates that we’ve included. Because there are some really good ones, in fact Mladden might have told us that the legal template actually helped him in his business when we interviewed him as well. But let’s talk through some of what’s in there.

Kira:   Yeah. So we shared our own templates and what we use in our business. Businesses. So my proposal template is in there, yours is as well. We also have our research processes and templates, podcast pitch templates that have worked for us and for other members. And also just different processes you can work through for onboarding, different checklists you can use. So you don’t have to start from scratch and you could build upon these processes that we’ve already created and improved upon.

Rob:   Another thing that’s in the template section is a rate calculator. A lot of people struggle to figure out their hourly rate or their day rates, and so we put together just a little spreadsheet where people can put in their expenses, the different things that they need to think through in order to come up with an hourly rate, a day rate. And we don’t actually recommend that people bill by the hour or necessarily think through their time for money, but it is a good idea to have a sense of how much money you do need to be making on, say, an hourly or a daily or even a weekly basis. So there’s a little template in there that will help people figure out the bare minimum that they should be charging when they’re charging by hour.

We also have some wireframes in there, I think. We’ve certainly shared wireframes in the group. There are some onboarding process templates so that you can see when you’re starting to work with a client, the kinds of activities that you could include. They include things that you and I do, and also some additional ideas from people who do things a little bit differently. And then also offboarding, because having the client have a good end of project often leads to the next project. And so we’ve put in a process in the templates there that people can follow to make sure that they get the testimonial from the client at the end of the project, or that they’re starting to pitch the next client or the next project and really helping to make sure that the projects end as well as possible.

Kira:   Yeah. And so we just shared a lot. There is a lot included, like we said. So if you’re like, ‘Okay, this actually feels overwhelming, or how is this going to help me?’ The whole point of all of it is that this is the community, the new, up to date trainings, the resources, the confidence, the feedback you need to help you consistently make 10k a month in your business or whatever your goal is in your business. If it’s not 10k, great. Whatever that is, we want you to be able to achieve it consistently and feel like you’re moving in the right direction in your business and ultimately that you feel confident in what you’re doing day to day. And that’s something that we feel like we can stand behind.

But what’s been really cool is we talked with the members and these members that you’re hearing from today in this podcast is that people are achieving their goals. And they are hitting consistent numbers, and they’re making more than they thought possible, and they’re feeling confident in what they’re doing. So you’ll hear from Amy Jones, who even went from being on food stamps to consistently hitting 10k in her business. And she talks through her story, how she’s made that possible over the last few months, too. So it’s really powerful to know that this is actually happening to other copywriters and content writers. This isn’t just an empty promise.

Rob:   Our vision for this group is really for the whole group to be the kind of place where you just want to hang out. But not only because you’re among friends, but because you’re among friends who get what you’re doing and they’re able to help you move forward. And so like you mentioned with Amy’s interview, I was surprised when she told us how much The Underground had changed her business and what she was making. Like, seriously, blew me away. It was awesome to hear that people are having that kind of success with, obviously these guys are really smart writers and they’re doing really smart things in their business. But knowing that they’ve got The Underground, the members there, and the templates, the trainings to back them up, has just helped them uplevel their business in new ways.

Kira:   So I mean, we do have this large free Facebook group with ten thousand members. So I know we’ve been asked what the difference is between our membership and this private community, and other free groups. Lots of free communities are out there. And we also have our other free community. So what would you say is the difference, Rob?

Rob:   So the biggest difference for me, in addition to all of those things that we just talked about, you know, that are included, the newsletter and the private group and the templates and the accountability groups and all of that, which obviously, those things aren’t available to our free group. But the real biggest difference is that everybody in The Underground understands that investing in their business and getting better takes more than just hanging on Facebook, you know? It’s not a casual process, but it’s something that they’re doing very deliberately. It’s something that they’re willing to put some time and effort into. And so that’s why it actually costs just a little bit of money, you know? It’s not a free group to join The Underground. It’s because when you’re investing in yourself and in the things that you’re doing, if you’re paying a little bit for it you tend to take it a little bit more seriously. And so this group takes things just a touch more seriously. It’s still fun, there’s still great camaraderie, there’s lots of fun sharing and things that go on. But everybody that’s in there is really serious about making their business succeed.

Kira:   Yeah. I kind of see our larger free group as the playground, and it’s like the playground where there are a lot of people hanging out, there’s a lot of activity, a lot of different personalities, people with different levels of experience, and it’s a lot of fun. It can also be overwhelming at times because there’s a lot happening in there, and then I see our Underground membership as almost like a little room or a little school off of the playground where people show up, where you and I are in there a lot. But where people show up when they want to go and they want to improve their business and they want to focus on growth in these multiple areas that we’ve talked about already. And that’s where you and I can go and know like, these people put their hand up and they want more of our time, attention, of the different resources that we can share. So it gives the two of us an opportunity to really help the people that want to be helped. Otherwise, you know, there’s only so much time available for the two of us to show up, and I like knowing, ‘Okay, these people are here and they’re really serious about growth, and they want to hear what we have to say, and they want us to help them.’ So I see it that way.

Rob:   Yeah, I like that.

Kira:   I guess I like the idea of the playground.

Rob:   I kind of like that. Maybe if school is the kind of thing that gives people heartburn, maybe they can think of it as a virtual co-working space, you know, where we all kind of step off of the playground.

Kira:   It’s like a hot tub.

Rob:   Yeah, there you go.

Kira:   It’s like the hot tub at the playground. We’re all hanging out in the hot tub with our swimsuits. I guess that could get awkward, too. So maybe it’s not a hot tub, it’s, whatever. It’s the monkey bars, whatever is your thing, but we’re hanging out there and there are really good people there.

Kira:   So Rob, what is coming up next in The Underground? What can members and new members expect in The Underground over the next few months?

Rob:   Well, one change that we’re going to be making is that it’s not going to be open evergreen. So you know, it’s been open for anybody to join at any time, and we’re going to actually start bringing people in sort of in groups so that we can do things like organize people a little bit better in the accountability groups and the copy review groups that we do. We think that if we can bring people in in groups, that we can support them just a little bit better. And so The Underground will be open for new members up until July 1, and then as of July 1 we’re going to close the doors for a few months in order to make sure that everybody’s organized and set up with the support and the different things that they want to get out of the group.

And then at some point in the future, maybe later in the fall or sometime in the winter, we’ll open it again for new members. The other thing that we’re going to change when we reopen it is the price is going to go up. Because of all of the things that have been added over the past seven months and it’ll be close to 12 months by the time that we reopen again, there’s just a year’s worth of training, there’s all the past issues of the newsletter, some special reports, the 17 job finding hacks, your client finding hacks report is in there, and some other things that we have planned. So the price will go up to support the value that we’ve added to The Underground over the past few months.

Kira:   Right, so it’s jumping up from $79 a month, which is where it currently is, to $97 a month next time we launch after July 1. So if you want to get in, if you want to join, if you want to experience this for yourself, then join before July 1, when we close the doors, and you also can secure the currently lowest rate that it will ever be.

Rob:   So we’ve been talking a lot about our feelings about The Underground, and what’s included, and the pricing. And if people who are listening are thinking, ‘Uh, I don’t know if this is for me,’ maybe we should just introduce you to a few of the members who are in The Underground and let them share their experiences with what they’ve accomplished since they’ve been in the group.

Kira:   Great. Let’s do it.

Rob:   Okay. So first up, let’s listen to what Amy Jones has to say about her experience since she joined.

Amy:  I am, of course, Amy. And I am a copywriter/digital marketer for physicians. I focus primarily on female physician entrepreneurs. And I help them market either their practice or their side gig. So a lot of them have things they do on the side as another stream of income. Typically they don’t know how to market that. And so I help them do that, and particularly through copywriting.

And then I also write for agencies as well.

Kira:   And how long have you been in business?

Amy:   So I started last year, learning about marketing, and copywriting. I didn’t even know that digital marketing was a thing. April of last year, I was researching how to market a product that I actually wanted to develop, and I learned about copywriting. I realized that rather than trying to develop this product that was going to cost a lot of money and be a huge investment, that I had writing skills and I probably would be better off to go ahead and market my skills as a writer and sell other peoples stuff, where I didn’t actually have to develop anything. And all I had to do was write, and deliver the copy, instead of having to actually print mailing labels or ship something or, yeah.

Kira:   What was your business like, or your career like, before you joined The Underground? Right before you joined?

Amy:  I think I had one recurring client. I had done some one-off work. But pretty much it was just still hustle, hustle, hustle, try to find a client. I would write a piece for $100, or write something for $50. In other words, it was not paying the bills.

Rob:   So tell us why you joined The Underground, then. What was the thing that made you think, ‘Hey, this is something I want to do.’

Amy:  So when I first decided to get into copywriting, I actually met someone and she said to join The Copywriter Club group. So I had been in The Copywriting Club for that length of time. Basically since April or so last year. I had seen tons and tons of people just really seeming to excel, and I knew that I had the ability to write, but I needed more than what I was getting from that group. Like I felt like there was something I was missing, I didn’t know what it was. When I saw the chance to join, I don’t even remember how I learned of it. But yeah.

And I was like, ‘I think I need that.’ And so I joined. And I don’t even think I had the money at the time to pay for it every month. I was just like, ‘I’m just going to join.’

Kira:   Oh, wow. When you joined, then, what surprised you the most about The Underground initially?

Amy:  So I just was able to get that one on one. And I think that’s what I really needed. And so what surprised me was people’s willingness to really, to step outside and help and answer questions and not just, you know, ‘Okay, how do I do this, or how do I do that?’ But like, ‘Hey, can you look over my copy? Tell me what I’m doing wrong. How do I make it better?’ And I think that was the most surprising, you know, was that people would actually do that and they didn’t say, ‘Oh yeah, I’ll do that for you, for $250.’ But they said, ‘Sure,’ you know, and it was just like, huge willingness of everybody to kind of step in and support each other. I don’t know if it was surprising, but it was definitely different from other places, you know? Like other groups, other places around the internet that you might find.

Rob:   And how has your business changed since you joined The Underground, Amy?

Amy:  It’s exploded. Once I joined The Underground, I ended up getting, I made, the first month, almost $6,000.

Kira:   Wow, that’s crazy.

Amy:  Yeah. I made almost $6,000. And then I made at least $6,000 since then and I’ve made $10,000 a month since the last two or three months now. Every month.

Rob:   And why is that? How has The Underground changed your business in that way?

Amy:  Well I think that support, and that confidence. And so a lot of times maybe I didn’t feel very confident in my writing, I didn’t feel very confident in my business ability. And having people there who are saying, ‘Yeah, this is good,’ right? Like, ‘Edit this, edit this, this is good.’ And then it kind of gives you that confidence that you don’t need somebody to look at it again, right? I mean, now I don’t ask people, ‘Hey, look at my copy,’ as much. Because now I feel much more confident in what I’m writing, and I feel confident enough that when someone says, ‘Hey, I’m looking for a copywriter,’ I say, ‘Hey, you know what, I’m a copywriter. I can help you with that.’

Kira:   You know, there could be a copywriter listening who’s thinking, ‘Well, maybe it’s just you, Amy. Maybe you just, you’re lucky or you just got some secret sauce,’ or something. What would you say to them?

Amy:  If anyone has ever called me lucky, they don’t know me. So this is the thing. Ultimately, at the end of the day, your mindset is going to be what’s going to either propel you forward or keep you back.

Rob:   Yeah.

Amy:  So when I, after I joined the group, what transformed for me was more than my writing, was my mindset. I saw people who were doing what I wanted to do, who were hugely successful, and it erased the doubt that I had in my mind that I wasn’t good enough. It erased the doubt in my mind that I had that I was just playing on the internet all day. It erased the doubt that I had about working from home. That, to me, is the biggest thing. Luck has absolutely nothing to do with it. If luck had anything to do with it, I would have been in residency last year, I would have been a doctor. I’d have been practicing medicine. Luck has nothing to do with it, because at the end of the day it’s about really doing the work and having the mindset that you deserve the copywriting project, you deserve the income, you’re deserving and worthy of the things and the desires that you have in your heart. That, at the end of the day, that’s what changed for me. I mean, literally. And the reason I say that is because I came from a place where my power was being turned off, my gas was being turned off, I was on food stamps last year.

Kira:   Wow.

Amy:  That’s what I’m saying. Like if anybody knows me, you would not say I was lucky. I have, for the most part of my life, I’ve been able to overcome a lot of things through determination and a persistence and a stubbornness, you know? Of saying, ‘I’m not giving up,’ when everybody else will give up, when everybody else will quit, I’m not quitting.

Kira:   Wow. So and you’re hitting 10k consistently in your business now?

Amy:  Yeah. So it’s super exciting. And it’s amazing, you know, because I have made more money in two months right in the first two months of this year than I made all year last year.

Rob:   That’s amazing.

Amy:  I’ve made more money so far this year than I made last year and the year before that put together.

Kira:   That’s crazy. Well, congratulations. You’ve done a lot right in your business, and that’s well deserved. So what would you say to a copywriter who’s listening and who is struggling right now and is just on the fence about whether or not to join?

Amy:  Well, the pain point for them is definitely that feeling like you’re alone. Feeling like you don’t know what you’re doing. You may not know where the money’s going to come from. The interesting thing for me is I felt like that if I invested in myself, I put my money where my heart was, like I knew that I could make it work. And so that’s what I would say, is invest in yourself. And realize that by joining the club, you’re going to have the support that’s going to help you, propel you and your business forward. Once you make that decision and you say this, you put your foot in the sand and you say, ‘This is what I’m going to do.’ And you pay that little bitty fee. And that then is your stick in the sand, you know? That’s your, ‘Hey, I am a copywriter, I am a professional, I am doing this.’ Something happens with your commitment inside of yourself and your commitment to your brain and your commitment to your mindset. And it will change your business. Because there are people there who will help you, literally tell you what you need to do to get clients. And half the time, there are people who are giving clients in the group.

Rob:   A great story, and we really appreciate you joining us for just a couple of minutes to tell us that. We’re excited to hear that you’ve had so much success from what’s going on in The Underground and obviously you’re doing great things in your business, of course.

Kira:   Yeah, thank you Amy. Next, let’s listen to Derek Hambrick’s experience and how he’s transitioned to a full-time freelancer after losing his job and is now hitting 20k a month in his business.

Derek:            Hey, I’m Derek Hambrick, a content and copywriter based in Atlanta, Georgia. I’m focused on higher ed clients but have especially as of late been finding myself working more broadly. We’re talking about like, professional services firms as well as smaller ma and pa type solopreneur businesses. I tend to do longer form copy, although my experience spans everything from tomes and huge manuals to punchy ad-type copy. So I’m comfortable doing any number or any variety of copywriting, but I’m really enjoying the longer form stuff right now.

Rob:   Tell us, Derek, about your business. What was going on when you decided to join The Underground?

Derek:            The Underground kind of happened at the right time for me. I had just been laid off as my copywriter role had just been eliminated from my former, at my former employer, rather. The decision to join The Copywriter Underground was kind of like a commitment, if you will. I knew that I wasn’t going to seek other employment full time, and as, Rob and Kira, as you know, I’d been conducting the business on the side for quite a while. And I thought, ‘Okay, this is time to take it front and center.’ Well, The Copywriter Underground was one way of me manifesting that, if you will. I knew I needed likeminded individuals which I had met through The Copywriter Club, but for me The Copywriter Underground was, to me, and not in a judgmental way, but it was like, ‘Okay, who’s really serious about this?’ I knew there was value there. I knew there was perspective from other copywriters much more experienced than me that I could use to grow.

Rob:   So tell us what’s happened in your business since you joined The Underground?

Derek:            It’s really taken off. It was also, like I said at the transition of me taking the side hustle to the main game, if you will. I can’t say that yes, I was going full time in my copywriting business exclusively, and then I joined The Copywriter Underground and magic happened. But I can say that magic happened, because I’m learning so much through The Underground, through the relationships I’ve got with other copywriters, through the safe environment, really. And The Copywriter Underground really is a safe environment to ask those questions, to show your true self to others and say, ‘Hey, I don’t know what to do here. What have you done?’ So that I can grow the business in that way.

The trainings in The Underground are fantastic as well. Hot seat calls, topic specific calls are so helpful for me. I’m finding that there’s so much worth that helps me grow at an accelerated rate, rather than just trying to make my own way on my own.

Kira:   Could you share a couple of the trainings that have been most useful to you so far?

Derek:            There’s one, and actually reminded me all, but I need to go back and listen to the recording, but I think it was about brand guides. Funny story, because one of my newer clients, I’m working with her on creating employment value propositions. In reviewing the notes to one of our calls, I see now that like, oh yeah, I want to do voice guides and brand guides once we have these implement value propositions down. And I had forgotten about that, but just before reviewing those notes I was looking through Copywriter Underground events and so forth, I was like, ‘Oh my god, there was a whole call on this.’ So my plan is to go back, listen to the call, and then armed with that knowledge, go back to that client and say, ‘Hey, look. We’re wrapping up this implement value proposition project. Here’s some areas I think that we can use this to create those voice guides and those brand guides that I know you wanted to do.’

So it’s like there’s so much good that I’ve gotten from the calls, but you know, that’s just an example of one that I haven’t heard yet and I just know that it’s going to help me out in my business.

Rob:   Is there anything else that you really love about The Underground, anything that jumps out or anything that surprised you?

Derek:            Yeah, just the, compassion isn’t the right word. But when I’m in The Underground I’m looking at what people post and then developing the relationships the copywriters that are in there I just feel such support. You can’t really tie that to ROI, right? It’s not something tangible. But for me it’s just as important in growing my business, is knowing that I have a place to go that I can say, ‘Hey, I have no idea what to do. What have y’all done?’ And get real, tangible answers. Real support from people who genuinely, not just you and the two of y’all, but like, people who I’ve never actually met face to face. These people really want me to succeed. I feel that. It’s also a great place to go and say, ‘Hey y’all, I hit 10k this month.’ Or, ‘This month’s turning out to be, I’m getting closer to 20k. Holy crap.’ And be able to go there and share that, not as like a, ‘Hey look at me,’ but like, ‘I did it, this is how I did it, and let me know if I can help you do it, too.’ It’s real community, and I so appreciate that.

Kira:   Could you just share who you think could benefit from joining The Underground?

Derek:            As far as people who The Underground is right for, are people who are really taking the work seriously. And that could be someone who is supporting a family and trying to do it full time. It could be somebody who’s just out of college or, shoot, somebody who’s in high school and says, ‘I like writing. I’m not too bad at it. I want to get better.’ It does represent a commitment, but anything worthwhile in my experience is worthwhile making a commitment to. You’ve got people here that, in The Underground, who are great people who know a lot. There are people here who know so much more and are so much more advanced than I am. You know, people like Kira and Rob, you know. People you can learn from. If you want a collaborative, supportive, community that will not just support you as a professional, as a person, but will help you get better in your craft, The Underground is where it’s at.

Rob:   We also had the opportunity to talk to somebody who’s not living in the United States, and this was kind of interesting. Because when we talked to Mladden he told us that he found out about us through David Garfinkel and just decided to join based on his recommendation, and he’s started to accomplish even more in his business since he joined. So let’s listen to what Mladden had to say.

Mladden:       My name is Mladden Stojanović. I’m a direct response copywriter from Serbia, in Europe. And I’ve been in marketing for the past 10 years. And about some three years ago, I decided to focus only on copywriting. I’m a, let’s call it a full time freelancer. And the type of work I mostly do is sales pages, VSLs, webinars, sales emails, so anything but the content, I tend to leave content to people who are more interested in that kind of writing.

Rob:   Tell us what was going on in your business that made you think that you needed to join The Underground.

Mladden:       I found out about The Underground through David Garfinkel. He shared in his Facebook group that he was a guest in something new, a new community called The Copywriter Underground, that he’s done a great training for them, and that he advises everyone to check it out. And I went to check out his training and I saw it’s a paid community. I checked out what kind of training, what type of thing I can expect, and the pricing was, you know, just fine for me. So I jumped right into, specifically to get David’s training, but I ended up because it’s simply awesome. Before I joined, my business was anything but business. So I didn’t have any streamlined process in my work, so basically I would do things as I go. So I didn’t have a checklist, you know, this, I’m starting the project now so I should do this, this, this, in that specific order. So basically everything was, you know, everything was random acts of something.

But since I joined The Underground, and when I saw the amazing materials that you have as bonuses for the members and the great content you give, I really started to streamline everything and to create checklists for everything that I do, which helped me a lot with my business. It looks much more like a real business now.

Rob:   What would you say is the biggest transformation that you’ve made in your business since you joined The Underground?

Mladden:       Confidence. Definitely. So as you can hear, English is not my first language, so I make lot of mistakes. Sometimes words don’t come easily when I speak. It’s much different when I write, but not that easy when I speak. I had that block, you know, that problem in my mind, ‘Why would anyone hire me to write for them when they have native copywriters who are maybe much more experienced, much more better, right there in the US?’ The community that you’re building and the confidence you’re giving actually helped me a lot to build that self confidence when it comes to this. So now I really don’t think about this as a disadvantage. I think about this as an advantage that I live in some different country, speak a different language, because it gives me a different point of view, maybe, on some topics that I write for my clients.

Kira:   How would you describe The Underground and what’s included and kind of like what you actually get in The Underground to a copywriter that’s not familiar with it?

Mladden:       Most people would think that you should come to a community like this for content. Even though your content in The Underground is amazing and first class and you should charge way more than you do now, I don’t think that the content is your biggest strength. I think that the biggest strength for The Underground is actually the community for people there who are very supportive, who are very knowledgeable, who are amazing, who are always ready to help you with their thoughts, insights, inputs, whatever. And the second best thing that you have inside that everyone should join for is the bonuses that you give. I can’t even say how helpful it was when I saw that you actually have some contract forms and templates inside the community. That was super helpful for me, because somewhere around that time I have new potential clients who want to have everything, you know, formalized, you know, contracts and everything. And I had no idea who to ask for to help with that. I found some templates online, but I wasn’t satisfied with what I found. But the thing that you had right there was the perfect thing I needed at that point. So the community, and the bonuses that you get, the checklists, the templates, your podcast cold pitch template is amazing, and I plan to use it in a few weeks. And of course the amazing content that you get.

Kira:   Yeah. And so what’s next for you as you continue to grow in The Underground, kind of, what’s the next challenge or hurdle that you’re focused on?

Mladden:       The next challenge or hurdle that I’m currently working on is to hire someone to help me with my work, as an employee. So as a junior copywriter. Because ever since I joined, as I said, my work become more streamlined, I became more productive, and because of that I got more work, now, under my belt. So I’m working several clients, they throw a lot of work my way, and it’s starting to get really time intensive. And in the next few months, maybe few weeks I’ll probably need to hire someone to help me with writing all those projects.

Rob:   Mladden if somebody were thinking about joining a group like The Underground, what would you tell them? What advice would you give them?

Mladden:       Don’t think too much. So if you really want it, do it. Yeah, I mean if you think too much you’re going to overthink it. And when you overthink, you never do anything. So if you even think, have the slightest desire to grow as a copywriter, as an entrepreneur, as a person, join. It’s not a $2000 program. It’s not like you’re tied for a year or something. Try it for one month. See the exceptional value that you’re going to get. I promise you, you’ll stay for months and years to come and I hope that this thing will last the next dozen years.

Kira:   Thank you so much for being in The Underground, and also jumping into this conversation with us. We appreciate it.

And next, let’s listen to Renae Rockwell, who updated her brand and website after sitting in a hot seat with the two of us and has landed a 15k project from a lead that was passed to her inside The Underground.

Renae:           I am Renae Rockwell, I am a natural health and sustainability copywriter focusing on web copy and email marketing. I am currently working on taking my business to the next level. But previously I had gotten all of my clients from Upwork, and when I found The Underground I knew that I was ready to jump to the next level, graduate from Upwork, and start finding some higher paying clients. And that’s essentially exactly what happened, in a matter of months.

Kira:   Awesome. So tell us a little bit about your first experience in The Underground, maybe your initial reaction or if anything surprised you.

Renae:           My first experience in The Underground was wonderful, to say the least. I was excited to have a much smaller, more intimate group of people to be able to bounce ideas off of and learn from and build relationships with that’s not as big as the TCC main group. So that was really exciting, and probably my favorite part.

Rob:   Tell us how your business has changed since you joined The Underground.

Renae:           Since joining The Underground, my business has grown a lot. I was able to launch my first website and I did some cold pitching, and I received my first few referrals and have not taken, actually, a single client from Upwork since. Which was kind of the goal from day one, so it was really exciting to have that happen.

Kira:   That’s awesome. So tell us about your website, because I love the brand and images on your website.

Renae:           So the theme of my website, I really just wanted my personality to come through on my website. Thanks to you, Kira, actually, on my hot seat call you said, ‘Renae, you have a big personality.’ And it never occurred to me that I did. I don’t really know why I spent my whole life just assuming that I was a wallflower, but apparently that’s different and I do actually have a big personality. You’re right, it was like a light bulb went off, you’re right. I do have a big personality. So that’s what it looks like. I have photos of myself in the outdoors, with a surfboard, with my family. And I talk about my personality-driven copy specialty.

Rob:   Is there anything that has surprised you about The Underground since you joined? Anything that just really jumps out that you really love?

Renae:           The hot seats. I didn’t expect that I would love the hot seats as much as I do. Especially the first one that I was on with you guys. It just lit a fire in me to get back on the horse and really start driving my business.

Kira:   Yeah, can you describe a little bit more about the hot seat format for anyone who’s not familiar with the hot seat? Or at least the way we run our hot seats.

Renae:           Yeah, so the hot seat is when Rob and Kira both tackle any problem that you have in your business for about 20 minutes, one on one in the hot seat, and it’s amazing.

Kira:   And you mentioned you’ve had referrals and you haven’t had to go back to Upwork, which is huge. So for someone listening or interested in doing The Underground, they may think, ‘Okay, well referrals just happen instantly in The Underground,’ which we know isn’t necessarily true. So what did you have to do to get those referrals? What advice would you give to someone who is in a similar situation you were in, maybe even on Upwork trying to get away from Upwork? How can they land those referrals?

Renae:           Well, you have to become the go-to person for one thing, and that’s basically what happened. I started to brand myself as a natural health and sustainability copywriter, and then when opportunities arose within that space people started coming to me. It was that simple.

Rob:   It sounds so easy. I happen to know a few of the details of one of the projects that you did, it’s not like a few hundred dollar Upwork project, it’s more than tens of thousands of dollars. Tell us just a little bit about that, and I’m assuming that came from connections in The Underground.

Renae:           It did. It did. So my 15k project, first one ever, came from a connection in The Underground, and I did dive into that headfirst. I pursued that job and was on Shannon about it for several weeks. She called me a pit bull. She was like, you’re, no, a rottweiler, that was it, she was like, ‘You’re a rottweiler!’ I was like, ‘Okay.’ So yeah, there’s work that goes into it. But I don’t think I would have even gotten, I wouldn’t have even been able to compete if I hadn’t started to really niche down.

Kira:   You’ve clearly had an ROI from the investment, but what is the big transformation or the impact from stepping away from Upwork, from getting some of these bigger projects, from having this focus and specializing? How has this impacted your life on more of a personal level?

Renae:           It’s been huge. I feel like I have control now. Before I felt like I didn’t really know if I was going to, I never really knew if the work was going to be there when I needed it. I guess it’s kind of how I felt when I was simply relying on Upwork. But now I have a little bit more control, I think. Like I know what to do. If I run out of work, I know what to do and I know how to do it. And I think that’s the biggest thing. Like I feel like I can go out and find more clients if I needed to, and that’s a big deal.

Rob:   I’ve asked this question of most of the people that we’ve talked to today, but if somebody were thinking about joining The Underground and they’re on the fence about it, what would you tell them?

Renae:           I would tell them absolutely to just do it. To just jump in and do it, because you will make your money back, without a doubt. It’s worth it. It’s 100% worth it.

Kira:   So I wanted to ask you, too, about the community. Because there are other communities out there. So what makes The Underground community of moles valuable to you? What makes it different from other communities out there?

Renae:           I think The Underground is the most intimate community I’m involved in as far as copywriter communities go, and that’s honestly a big deal. If it gets too big, then you don’t get to know people as well and I think the fact that you’ve managed to keep the size of The Underground small enough to still maintain deeper relationships between the people in there, that’s a big deal. That’s a very big deal.

Rob:   It sounds like your experience has been incredible. We definitely appreciate that you’ve been in there with us. And just love what you’ve been able to accomplish in your business.

Renae:           Thank you.

Rob:   Another person that we talked to was Emily Zoscak and she is really interesting to me because everybody that we’ve talked to up to this point has been a freelancer, and Emily actually works in house and still finds a ton of value in The Underground for her role as an in house copywriter. So let’s listen to what Emily had to share.

Emily:            So my name is Emily Zoscak. I’ve been a copywriter for about a year and a half now full time, I guess, and I’ve worked primarily in the health and wellness space. And I work in house right now, but I do work on the side and I’m starting my own business and hoping someday to go full time, I’ve got some plans in place for that.

Rob:   What was going on in your business when you decided to join The Underground?

Emily:            I actually was in house, it was my first copywriting job, and I was so excited, I was at this IT marketing agency. To be honest I didn’t love the content. I was basically told while I was there by my editor that I just shouldn’t be a copywriter, that I wasn’t very good, and it was horrible. So I really wanted to stick it to that editor and overcome my own kind of, you know, fears about being a copywriter. So I was looking around online, and long story short I ended up getting in contact with you guys, and Rob I actually messaged you and you told me about The Underground.

Kira:   Good job, Rob.

Emily:            That was back in October of last year. And I was sold on it. So I joined, and yeah. But I was just really not in a good place of not being sure if I wanted to be in copywriting, and when I joined The Underground I was like, ‘Nope, this is where I need to be.’

Kira:   What was that initial experience in The Underground that made you feel like, ‘Okay, this is where I need to be.’

Emily:            Everyone was just so, you know, warm. And I remember just having a lot of questions because I still felt really junior then. And you know, I was asking a lot of questions and messaging a lot of people, and everyone was really nice. And there were so many different trainings to get started on, and I remember getting that first hard copy newsletter and it was super exciting and just super refreshing to know that there was a community of other people out there like me who really valued copywriting and wanted to make a difference in the lives of businesses and business owners around the world.

Rob:   Tell us how your business has changed since you joined The Underground.

Emily:            So I went from not really being sure if I wanted to own my own business as a copywriter to being sure that’s really what I want to do over time. I’ve also gone from basically being told that I shouldn’t be a copywriter to now I’m the lead copywriter at a company here in Dallas that brings in 30 plus million dollars a year. I sit in meetings and I have input on strategy and messaging, and I get compliments from my coworkers all the time. And it’s just so good to finally feel like I’ve kind of hit my groove, I guess. It feels really good and I feel confident that when people ask me a question on copywriting, that I can give them a good answer based on my experiences and that if I don’t, I can come to the group and kind of get everyone’s feedback and everyone’s always really kind and open and I’ve just learned a lot.

And now I also do a lot more side projects as well, and I actually recently put out my first proposal for an $8,000 project and a year ago I wouldn’t have even thought that I would ever do that in my lifetime, let alone in a year.

Kira:   Yeah, so can you talk a little bit more about what you have been able to get out of The Underground? So you mentioned confidence. What else has been useful to you in The Underground?

Emily:            I would say first and foremost, the community. I mean, the larger group is great, but the smaller community I think when you’re interacting with the same people on almost a daily or weekly basis, and you get to kind of build those relationships and you get to know people for their different expertise and their different niches. But also I’ve had a really great accountability group come out of The Underground. We check in every other week and that’s been super helpful to make progress in my own business and things I’m working on for that. And also I love just the trainings that go on and the question threads, I think there’s one right now where people post questions and you both answer them over 48 hours, and that’s just been so cool. Like questions I never even knew I had, I’m getting the answer to. I feel like whatever problem or issue or obstacle I have, there’s either a training on it, or if there’s not or I can’t find it, I post a question and people are there to give me good feedback and advice, you both included. And that’s just been so helpful and reassuring and really helped me grow a lot in such a short amount of time.

Rob:   Is there anything that surprised you about The Underground, or anything that you weren’t expecting that turned out to be better than you thought it would be?

Emily:            The whole thing! Look, and when you sold it to me, Rob, you were very kind, you were not pushy, and I really appreciated that. This is going to sound so cheesy, but I genuinely cannot believe how much value I’ve got for what I paid for The Underground. Just the trainings are such high quality, you guys have templates in there that I’ve used in my business, and there’s a contract template in there that has saved my ass on more than one occasion. Just the people have been so wonderful, I feel like I haven’t met a bad egg in that group yet. And it’s just, I think the whole thing was just surprising. I mean I definitely expected to get value out of it, but I did not expect to learn as much as I did and grow as much as I have.

Kira:   Yeah, let’s talk a little bit more about the ROI, because it’s great when we say, you know, ‘This powerful community, it’s such a good group,’ but a lot of copywriters who, you know, investing in anything is tough, want to know what they will get and what type of return they’ll get. So can you share a little bit more about the return that you’ve received from this investment?

Emily:            So I think mine’s a bit different than copywriters who own their own business. I didn’t really start putting myself out there and pitching projects until this January, and so I’ve made several thousand dollars on that. But I also just want to caveat that with, I work full time. And I was able to ask for $15,000 more in my income, and get that, easily, and I actually recently got a little bit of a bonus at my company, too, based on my good work, and I’ve been there less than six months. In terms of value, I know there are some people who have gone and made even more, but I think for me just being able to have the confidence to really go out there and ask for that money and then feel like if it doesn’t come, that I can ask later and it will come from someone, because it wasn’t just a good fit, as opposed to, it’s not just, ‘Oh, I’m overcharging, or oh, it’s something wrong with me,’ kind of thing.

Rob:   The thing I love about your story, Emily, is that so much of what we talk about and what we do is really directed towards freelancers, and yet you’ve figured out a way to make this work for you in an in-house position. If you were talking to somebody who was thinking about joining The Underground, maybe had some hesitations, what would you tell them?

Emily:            I would tell them to go ahead and try it. You know, I think it’s important and I think as copywriters we often, even in in-house, when I’ve worked with other copywriters as well, we get kind of in our own little world and we get stuck in our own minds. And I think that holds us back sometimes, when if you’re in a group and you have a group of people that you can go to and ask for advice, whether it be on, ‘Hey, does this comma go there? Hey, what do you think about this overall value proposition?’ Or whatever. You’re able to get feedback. And so The Underground is really having that kind of built in sounding board and support system. For me, I really want to hone my craft and grow my business and being able to be in a group of people digitally that wants to do that as well is so valuable. And I mean, I know that I’ve made several connections, I’ve had several Zoom dates with other copywriters in The Underground. And I keep up with those people, like regularly, and we bounce ideas off each other. And so just being able to grow your network while staying in your PJs, if you want to, is, it’s super great.

Kira:   Yeah, I know Rob loves to work in his PJs.

Rob:   Yeah. I’ve got on my Batman PJs right now.

Kira:   All right Emily, well, we really appreciate you jumping in and sharing more about your experience in The Underground. And we’re glad that you’re in there, especially again because you’re a unique member in that you’re straddling two different worlds and I think it’s great that you’re a member and can offer a different perspective.

And, finally, we have Natalie Smithson, who’s been with us from the beginning, and we get to hear a little bit more about her experience inside The Underground.

Natalie:          I’m Natalie Smithson. I’m a digital innovation copywriter, so I work with people who want to make the world a better place or a more interesting place using technology.

Kira:   We want to hear about the reason why you joined The Underground months ago. What was the catalyst for you to join?

Natalie:          I think at the time you started I was just about to go full time in my copywriting business. So I’ve been part time, I always had loads and loads of plans for what I wanted to do, how I wanted to develop it once I had these extra hours. And I’ve done some quite intensive training at the beginning of the year. And then we’d had kind of away from work quite a rough year and then I was doing, struggling with the summer holidays, and I was doing client work. So I was kind of burnt out and frustrated, I had all this stuff I wanted to do, and I kind of just needed some clarity on where to start.

So if I remember rightly I think I was on one of your first hot seats. And so you know, you come in with like, an issue that feels like you’ve got the weight of the world on your shoulders and it’s this big thing. And then I had a chat with you two, and it’s just so useful to speak to people that have been there, that have done it. You know, you’ve spoken to loads of copywriters that have been in this kind of situation. And I came out just feeling calm and enthusiastic and excited to kind of get going again.

I think I was just really excited that you did the annual option as well. So I knew that all these plans I had were going to take a while, so I just signed up for the year, threw myself into it, and it’s been great ever since.

Rob:   Would you say there’s been an impact on your business in addition to the confidence building?

Natalie:          Pretty much, what are we, seven, eight months in or something? I’ve almost pretty much done everything that I set out to do. So for me it was very much about mindset, it was about having that kind of camaraderie, and other people there working on similar kind of things. Since I had that first hot seat I’ve launched services, I’ve written out all my processes and checklists, I’ve set up the mailing list, I’m doing content plans, I have interviewed past clients for case studies. You know, I’ve joined conferences. It’s just kind of, it’s just been a brilliant time, really, so I’ve kind of got to the end of that point. You know, now I just feel really good about everything compared to where I was just a really small amount of months ago.

A lot of it I think is the way that you frame stuff. So right at the beginning I remember you did the training. So you did live video training and it was about finding your x factor. And I think there’s something in the way that you position it and the way the training takes place and the fact that all of The Underground kind of get on board, you know, working on the same thing at the same time. I kind of went away after that and just wrote everything down, everything just kind of came tumbling out. And I think the things that keeps you going is everyone’s working on the same thing, so you’re all talking about it in the Facebook group or whatever. And people are struggling with different things, so some people might be struggling with ideas, some people are struggling with pricing or structure. So everybody in that group can then help each other with what they’re struggling on.

Kira:   What has surprised you the most about The Underground?

Natalie:          Well, I think what surprised me, I was kind of expecting to go in and kind of absorb all the training and the templates and all this kind of stuff, but I think the thing that surprised me is just that instantly from being in there I felt better about everything. So it really was for me all about mindset, watching what was happening in other people’s businesses, meeting kind of other copywriters going through similar kind of things, and then we set up the smaller groups. So we’ve got accountability groups and it’s four of us in mine, and I did not expect to luck out so much, like you know, we’ve just become like a little copywriting family. And we’ve just kind of shared everything. We’ve really gotten to know each other. And I think what surprises me is that every two weeks that we have a chat, I’m amazed by what everybody has achieved. You know, myself included. And it’s amazing how much I think somebody’s mindset can change in that time. So that’s really keeping me on track, that kind of close knit community. And just seeing what everybody’s doing in there, really, it’s phenomenal, so.

Rob:   It sounds like if we were to ask you what advice you’d give to people who might be contemplating joining a group like The Underground, is you would be pretty enthusiastic.

Natalie:          Oh, definitely. And I think you have loads of different reasons to join. So for me, it’s mindset. But yeah, there’s lots of, there’s some really phenomenal copywriters in The Underground, and there’s some really experienced copywriters as well, who’ve been doing this for donkers years. And they’re getting value from it. I’m kind of in the middle, you know, and I’m getting value from the mindset kind of stuff and the community. And there’s people who are literally just starting freelancing now, or you know, they may not have even left their full time job yet, they’re kind of you know, working out how it all gets done. And they’re maybe using the training a bit more, and the templates a bit more. There’s kind of so much to take from it, you know, you can really kind of pick and choose. You know, I’ve met the most incredible people, we’re all connected kind of I guess in our little niches. And sometimes you just kind of connect with someone who’s doing a similar thing or has a similar attitude.

So I just think there’s so many different ways to use The Underground. You can really get from it whatever you put in. And I think that’s the key. If you’re driven, if you’re hungry, you can go there and you can find something that’s going to benefit you. And also the good thing obviously, is that you ask us all the time what we need. So you know, we have input in what training comes next, and what templates we need. Another benefit is that it’s a secret group, so I think you feel like you can be, you know, a little bit more vulnerable in what you post and the conversations that you have. So I tend to find people are really open about stuff, which is really helpful, and no one’s trying to kind of save face or anything like that. People are very just conversational and supportive, and it’s just very real.

Rob:   Yeah, we’re thrilled to have you in the group, Nat, because you contribute every bit as much as you take, and you just help make the group better as well. So we really appreciate you sharing things that are going right in your business and the support you’ve been able to get from The Underground.

Natalie:          Oh, thank you.

Kira:   Thank you, Nat.

Rob:   Okay. We want to thank everybody who took the opportunity just to chat with us for 10 or 15 minutes about their experiences. It’s really incredible to me, Kira, how varied but yet consistent everybody’s experience is, you know. They’re doing different things, they’re working in completely different niches, but they’re accomplishing more than they thought possible, they’re thinking bigger, they’re doing different things in their business since they joined, all because of the community and the tools that they’ve found in The Underground.

Kira:   Yeah, I mean, you really can grow your business, you can achieve your goals and live a better life when you feel confident and you continue to grow your confidence. And I feel like that’s a big piece of what we’re selling, whether or not it’s sexy or not, but we give you the people, the trainings, all the resources you need, the feedback, so that you continue to increase your confidence. And we know that that’s what leads to charging more, to making the right connections, to putting yourself out there, and so this is everything that you need to do that in one place and it’s just great when the two of us can stand behind it and just feel like this is something that we know works, and we continue to improve it because we both care about it and we want it to help you be successful in your business and your life. So we hope that if this sounds like it’s potentially a good fit or if you have any interest in it, you connect with current community members and chat with them to learn more. Also just experience for yourself. Jump into The Underground and you can jump in there, you’re not stuck or trapped in there, but if you do want to secure the current rate before we bump that up, before we close the doors on July 1, now is the time to join us inside The Underground.

Rob:   And if you’re listening to the podcast after July 1, just know that you can go to The Underground page on our website and add your name to the list and we will update you as soon as The Underground is open again, and you can enjoy all of the things we’ve been talking about. The templates, the newsletter, the community, the groups, the trainings that are all there. It’ll be there available to you, but not until we open again later this fall or winter.

Kira:   Great. We will see you in The Underground.

Rob:   And thanks everybody for helping us with this episode. Derek, Emily, Amy, Mladden, Renae, Natalie, we really appreciate your feedback and we’re thrilled to hear about your successes in The Underground. Thanks.

You’ve been listening to The Copywriter Club Podcast with Kira Hug and Rob Marsh. Music for the show is a clip from Gravity, by Whitest Boy Alive, available in iTunes. If you like what you’ve heard, you can help us spread the word by subscribing in iTunes and by leaving a review. For show notes, a full transcript, and links to our free Facebook community, visit We’ll see you next episode.




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