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The people and stuff we mentioned on the show:

How to Find Clients Workshop
The Accelerator Waitlist
The Copywriter Think Tank
Kira’s website
Rob’s website
Tiffany’s Linktree
The Copywriter Club Facebook Group
The Copywriter Underground
Free month of Brain.FM

Full Transcript:

Rob Marsh:  After working as a copywriter for a few years, a lot of copywriters find that the title copywriter doesn’t really fit all of the work that they do. Yes, they use words to help their clients communicate the right messages, but often they do a lot more than that. The strategic problems that they solve are bigger than headlines, body copy, and calls to action. They may help with content strategy. They may help with offer creation or with brand strategy. That’s what Tiffany Ingle, our guest for today’s episode of The Copywriter Club Podcast, does for her clients. In this interview, we asked about her process for discovering and telling better brand stories and what she shared will be useful for anyone who helps clients write and tell their own brand stories.

Kira Hug:  But before we get to our interview with Tiffany, you may have seen an email or maybe a couple of emails from us about our new intensive designed to help you find clients consistently. Rob, I just want to share why we created this new intensive. We could have created many different new products, but why did you feel like this one was important?

Rob Marsh:  Well, we actually surveyed our email list and we had about 150 people just respond really quickly with the thing that they would like to see us do, the number one question that they’re struggling with, and more than half of the people who responded said they wanted help finding clients, help with leads and the process of going through how do they even pitch or land those clients. We’ve spent a lot of time putting together basically a workshop series that addresses that need and will give everybody who joins the tools, the training, and a system for habits that will make it a lot easier to implement this on a daily or a weekly basis in your business.

Kira Hug:  Yeah, it’s great if you know that you need a system that can help you find and then book clients consistently and you’re struggling with this maybe because you just don’t find the time to do it, or maybe because you’re trying different strategies that just aren’t working. We put together these seven different phases in this system that will all work together to help you to land these clients consistently. If you want to find out more information about this, if it sounds like something you could use, don’t wait because we’re going to kick off in early August and jump in soon. You can check out all the information by jumping into the link and the show notes.

Rob Marsh:  All right, let’s get to our interview with Tiffany.

Tiffany A. Ingle:  I became a copywriter at the end of 2019 after a few years of being a freelance writer, and I’ve had the privilege of writing copy behind the scenes for digital entrepreneurs and SaaS companies, content agencies, authors and speakers. I really enjoy writing copy, and I think I do a pretty good job at it, but I realized that the part I love most about my work was helping my clients strengthen their brands. I guess from a personal perspective, when I first got started as an entrepreneur, I spent so much money on all this training over the years to try to learn how to run a business. I always felt like I was getting really small pieces of the puzzle. But since I didn’t know what the full picture looked like, I couldn’t put it together.

Tiffany A. Ingle:  I didn’t have a strategy for marketing myself. I didn’t have a compelling story to serve as the unifying message for what I need my audience to believe about me. I didn’t have a way to easily build out and test new offers. And that’s all because the one thing I hadn’t learned how to do was build a brand. Without a brand, you won’t be in business for long. The more I worked with clients and I got into things like research and positioning and voice and messaging and offer optimization, I realized that I was more concerned about how the work I was doing on a launch or on standalone assets fit in with their overall brand strategy. I decided to move away from execution and to really focus on those foundational elements of running a business.

Rob Marsh:  When you say you moved away from execution, you’re still executing, but you’re executing on something different, right? You’re not doing as much copy. You’re doing more strategy. Am I right in that? Will you talk a little bit about the difference as you see it?

Tiffany A. Ingle:  Yeah, that’s correct, Rob. There was a time when people would come to me for launches or they want sales pages, things like that. And now when I work with people, it’s typically just to strengthen their brand. We put together a roadmap. I do that kind of work, or maybe we’ll focus just on the messaging because the messaging really ties everything together. As far as doing a lot of the projects that copywriters typically do, I have not been doing that as much lately. I’m really enjoying helping people put together a big picture strategy for how they’re going to grow their businesses.

Kira Hug:  Tiffany, I want to go back to 2019 because that was a good year. Let’s go back in time. How did you get your first few clients? How did you build in those early months as you were gaining traction in your business?

Tiffany A. Ingle:  My first clients were actually people that I knew just from being in different circles, different business circles online. I approached them and asked if I could do some case studies for them, because that seemed like a really good way to dip my feet into the copywriting waters. But then a couple months later when the… This is like the end of 2019 when I started. A couple months later, the pandemic was a thing. I had been thinking about joining Copyhackers Copy School for a while. I decided to go for it because I was stuck at home, like everyone else.

And then I was able to get some clients through that, other copywriters who needed some help. It just kind of took off from there. I mean, anytime someone asks me now like how I’ve grown my business, my number one answer is just networking. I just really take a lot of time to get to know people and just to build connections for the sake of just making a new friend and inevitably that leads to more business down the line.

Rob Marsh:  I want to go a little deeper on networking and making those connections, because this is something that a lot of us struggle with, even when we have a good business that everything seems to be going well. It feels sometimes like it’s really difficult to create new relationships or to reach out to new potential clients. Tiffany, what are you doing to actually do that? Obviously, we’re not necessarily talking about pitching here, you’re- actually creating relationships and friendships and connections. How do you do that?

Tiffany A. Ingle:  I’m a professional community member and group chatter. I love just hanging out in places where I can meet people who are doing amazing creative things. I always let people know if they want to do a Zoom chat or even like a good old-fashioned phone call; I’m always down for that. I’ve even recently started meeting people locally, which has been pretty fun and just a little surreal, because I never thought I’d be running my business offline too. But no, I let people know I’m open. I guess, other places where I’ve connected with people include LinkedIn, Twitter, just joining conversations there.

But yeah, mostly just being a part of really cool communities and showing a genuine interest in people and also letting people know I’m open to teaching things, even if it doesn’t directly align with my business goals. If I can share something that I know to help someone else, I’ll do it.

Kira Hug:  Maybe we can break this down even more because I know this comes naturally to you and I feel like you do have so many great relationships and this is where a lot of your projects come from. But for some copywriters, it’s just it doesn’t come as naturally. When they hear you say group chatter, I’m not sure how you worded it, but like you’re a professional community member and group chatter expert, if that doesn’t come naturally to them, but they do want to build stronger relationships that can turn into projects and paid work, could you kind of just break down those steps maybe even with an example of how it played out for you organically and then led to a project in the end?

Tiffany A. Ingle:  Yeah, sure. Definitely, I have to be organic because I don’t have a strategy for how I’m doing this. I’m just really inquisitive and I love talking to new people. But all right. Here’s an example that I think anyone could follow. There are some people on LinkedIn who have a really big platform and they love doing things like… I don’t know what the branded term is, but like maybe on a Saturday or something they’ll say, “Hey, here’s a post. Everyone jumped in. Introduce yourselves and connect with people.” If I get tagged in one of those things or if I see one, I’ll just introduce myself and let people know that I’d love to have a conversation. People DM me and we set something up.

There’s no pressure. There’s no expectation that we’re going to work together. I just always like to ask people what they do, why they’re passionate about what they do. Typically, I offer my help. I always try to help people in some way. Maybe it’s an introduction, or maybe it’s a book recommendation, or maybe they want me to share something on social media that they wrote, something like that. I think that if you offer to do something nice for someone else, I mean, most of the time they’re going to want to reciprocate. I think that’s a pretty low stress way of going about it.

Rob Marsh:  Would you say, Tiffany, that it takes weeks or months or how long does it take to go from that first offer of help, whether it’s a book or ideas or whatever, to the point where you can actually work on a project with someone?

Tiffany A. Ingle:  It really depends. I would say probably for me, I will say like a couple of months, a couple of months, because I’ve had situations where people have asked me for referrals and I’ll give them a couple of names. And then later when they’re actually ready to do the project, they’ll say, “Well, can you just help me?” And that comes down to, I think, mere exposure effect. When people are familiar with you, they’re more likely to trust you. Just like being generous like that. I end up seeing results within a couple of months. Sometimes it’s faster than that. I remember responding to someone’s email that I thought was pretty interesting.

Just saying, “Hey, by the way, if you need some help with this, happy to do that.” I gave them some other topics that they could discuss in their community. They liked my idea so much that they asked if I could just come in and teach. That I think took maybe two, three weeks. It’s pretty fast.

Kira Hug:  While we’re talking about relationship building, can you talk about how you nurture all these relationships? This is maybe more of a struggle for me. It’s like once you start to jump on these calls and build these relationships, it feels really good. People trust you, but business is long-term. How do you maintain those relationships over time, especially as the numbers start to increase and you’re like, “Wow! I’ve had a hundred connections over the last year,” and then you double that the following year, it starts to feel overwhelming? Again, I know you do this organically and it’s part of your superpower, but how do you approach that type of nurturing of relationships?

It’s really interesting to hear you say that because one thing people are often surprised to discover about me is that I’m an introvert. And not just like any kind of introvert. I’m an extreme introvert. I’m worn out easily by social interaction. I don’t have a strategy. I just really am so interested in supporting the people I meet that… Like if I’m on LinkedIn, for example, and I happen to see a post from someone I connected with, I’ll just send them a message or maybe like a voice note, which is really fun. I find that voice notes are easier when you’re really busy and they also feel more personal. That’s where being a professional group chatter, I don’t know, a professional friend, I guess, just comes in.

I try to build time into my schedule to do that, just to take a few minutes just to see. If someone’s on my mind, I see what they’re doing on Instagram, let me make sure I’ve been opening up their newsletter lately. It’s just a regular part of my day. I wish I could say I had a strategy. When I meet somebody and I like them. I just kind of collect them and I want them to be my friend forever. I just make sure that I check in with them when I have time.

Rob Marsh:  It feels like you’ve just given us the secret to connecting with you, Tiffany. We just need to tag you in whatever social media we see you in and that conversation will start on its own.

Tiffany A. Ingle:  Absolutely. I’ve been on like more and more podcasts lately and just like getting out there and doing conversations. I always tell people, yeah, definitely slide into my DMs, as long as it’s not creepy. I’m interested in talking with you. I’ve been meeting people and just hopping on calls with them. It’s been a lot of fun. I don’t mind it because so far everyone’s been really respectful. But yeah, definitely. Sometimes I’ll say like, if you get me on Instagram, I may take a while to reply because Instagram is so distracting. I just don’t have it on my phone anymore. But yeah, I’m always interested in talking to people. Please everyone tag me everywhere. I’ll get to you.

Rob Marsh:  I want to change our conversation just a little bit and switch over to what you do in your business, which is helping with brand strategy and creating the brand voice guide and all of that. Tell us a little bit more about that work and what it is that you actually deliver for your clients.

Tiffany A. Ingle:  Sure. I always like to say that brand strategy is a narrative that you build for your business. It’s what defines its meaning and its purpose so that you win the loyalty of the people that you desire to serve. What I deliver to my clients as a roadmap, and that sounds pretty vague, right? The reason for that is it’s very unique to every business that I work with. But in short, it is getting crystal clear about where you’re going, the path you need to take to get there, and how to handle roadblocks well before you encounter them. It’s one of those things.

It’s like a foundational piece that is meant to be used in your business for the long-term to help with decision-making and consistency and to ensure that you are simultaneously attracting the right people to your business and repelling the wrong ones. When I work with people, I always tell them to brand themselves and their businesses like they have nothing to lose, because otherwise they’re playing it safe. If you’re playing it safe, you are playing it small. I really love my work because I get to let my brain run wild. When I say that, I mean that I go deep into the recesses of my mind and I come up with new perspectives and strategies to help other people make sense of complicated concepts.

Kira Hug:  You had me at brain run wild and branding like you have nothing to lose. I love that concept. Can you talk about what you’re doing differently maybe compared to other brand strategists? We’ve talked about brand strategy on the podcast before. We know many of the listeners focus on this type of offering. Is there something that you are doing that is working really well and we can learn from?

Tiffany A. Ingle:  Well, that’s an interesting question. I happen to know several brand strategists who are all dear friends of mine. I don’t know what I want to say… I’m not doing better than them. I guess what sets me apart is that I focus on two things. One, I insist that my clients view themselves as artists. The reason I say that is best summed up by a quote from The Practice, Seth Godin’s book. I know he has been on this show before, but I just love this quote. He says that is the human act of doing something that might not work, something generous, something that will make a difference. It’s the emotional act of doing personal self-directed work to make a change that we can be proud of. I love that quote because it’s so broad that it gives anyone permission to see their work as significant.

For me, that means my thinking is my art. And for my clients, I think that means that it gives them the freedom to really infuse a lot of like vibrancy in what they’re doing. The other thing I guess that sets me apart is my passion for fantasy. I know you have both heard me talk a little bit about my love for fantasy, but I think it’s so important to immerse yourself in fantasy and adjacent genres like sci-fi and horror because it’s one of the best ways to start thinking outside the box in your business. Fantasy trains your brain to confront uncertainties and things that are potentially frightening from a position of safety.

When you’re running a business, especially if you’re like a solo entrepreneur, it’s all about dealing with different challenges, like figuring out how to navigate those challenges so that your business keeps striving. I think fantasy does that. It helps you to prepare yourself for those challenges before you actually have to face them. It’s a great way to train your brain for critical thinking. As a personal example, that impacts my business, I have anxiety. One of the ways that I deal with my anxiety is by imagining the worst possible outcome that I can. I let myself feel all the emotions that come up so that I realize that I’m capable of surviving the worst-case scenario.

And that same thing happens when you’re reading fantasy. It makes your brain more resilient. It also helps you to increase your sense of wonder. You learn to look for magic in everyday things and situations. That kind of perspective helps you to desire fascination and to think about things differently than other people do. I can keep going.

Rob Marsh:  I kind of want you to keep going. I’m sitting here thinking, I’ve got more questions about brand strategy, which is where we started, but now I have questions about fantasy. Can we come back to fantasy in just a minute? Let me ask, while we’re still talking about brand strategies and the work that you do there, let’s say that I need a brand strategy. What’s the bare minimum work that I need to do in order to do it right? I know there’s all kinds of things that I can kind of do that just won’t get me there. Help me understand what are the steps that I need to get to that. I think you like to talk about the minimum viable brand strategy.

Tiffany A. Ingle:  Yeah, that’s right. I have a framework. It’s called CRAVE and it’s an acronym. It’s basically… I like to say it represents my mindscape as a brand strategist and it’s what I think a business needs to start building out that narrative that embodies its essence. C is for compelling, which represents how you cultivate your audience’s attention. Essentially you initiate and develop relationships with the members of the audience through your messaging and your storytelling. Messaging and storytelling would be the first two things. The R is for resident, excuse me, and that’s all about sharing a vibe with your audience. I know that’s like such a gen Z way to put it, but it’s so accurate.

That also involves your messaging and storytelling, but it also expands into things like your positioning, which is the context you give to your audience so that they can understand who you are and what you do and your unique value proposition. It’s also creating a feedback loop between your business and your audience. If you want to keep growing, you have to consistently hit all the right notes with your people. You don’t know if you’re doing that unless you’ve set up systems to get that input. It is authentic and being authentic is just simply embracing your unique magic, or in my case, the madness of my method, and that has to do with your brand voice and your personality. V is vivid. That’s your north star, your fixed points.

That includes things like your business model, the audience, the different segments of your audience, offer optimization, and your strengths and weaknesses, like a SWOT analysis. The E is for emotive. These are the things that people typically think about when they think about branding, brand identity things, the elements of your brand that trigger that visceral response, different touchpoints. All these elements that I mentioned, they should spring from a single core truth or a big idea that you want to rally your audience and your customers around. Your longevity as a brand depends on your ability to attract faithful followers. The CRAVE factor is the framework I used to help my clients create devotees.

Kira Hug:  Do you have any examples you could share? I know I’m putting you on the spot, but those big ideas you’ve helped some of your clients work through and share with the world.

Tiffany A. Ingle:  I can share my big idea because it comes to mind. My big idea for my brand is authenticity is addictive. I know authenticity is one of those words that almost means nothing nowadays because everyone says it. But I think it’s so important. I think that the brands that really make us feel inspired or that make us want to open up our wallets every time they offer something, it’s because there’s something about them that is very human and very relatable. It’s something that we want because it represents something that we want to be., and when I first started my business, my big idea or what I thought was my big idea was just like very ho-hum and forgettable. When I went back and uncovered my own brand story, I realized that authenticity is something that matters deeply to me, and that that’s the kind of thing… That’s what I want to help other people be and do is be authentic in the world and do things that are genuine. That really unlocked a lot of things for me.

Rob Marsh:  As you walk through the framework and we’ve set through each of the letters in CRAVE, obviously you’re creating something, what’s the deliverable? What are you handing back to your client that then I’m able to take as a client and say, “Okay, team, this is how we move forward,” so that you really are sharing that brand strategy and that brand story in a way that’s meaningful to their customers.

Tiffany A. Ingle:  The deliverable includes several things, a brand story, for example, your unique value proposition, positioning statements, a really solid description of your values, your vision, your mission, a breakdown of your voice. But I would say that the main thing that really helps people is getting clear on their messaging so that people can communicate that big idea to their audience effectively. When I’m working with people, the messaging is a significant portion of what they get in the document that I give to them.

Kira Hug:  All right. How do you sell it? Because I know… Again, we talk to many copywriters who want to transition from copywriting and dive more into brand strategy and sell those offers. Sometimes it’s hard to sell those packages. What helps you sell it and get people to put their hands up?

Tiffany A. Ingle:   The easiest way for me to sell it is actually just to get in front of people and just start to riff on like all the ideas in my head, and then they really get into it and they say, “Oh, okay. Yeah, I do need that for my business.” I think the thing about brand strategy, because it’s not what I would say is like an execution-style deliverable. It’s not a sales page. It’s not an ad set. Proving the ROI is… It’s more challenging. But one thing I like to talk about is just the issues that come up in a team when you’ve been…Your whole style of running your business has been flying by the seam of your pants because you see it over and over where there is disunity because one department has a completely different idea of what the business is about and what its priority should be versus another department. You see them in startups a lot. That’s one way I sell it. I like to focus too on brand story because I think brand story is like the best place to start when I’m working with a client for the first time. One of the things I do is I talk about how that brand story, that big idea, like how it should be an anchor for the entire business. It’s mostly through conversations and just getting out there, letting people know what it is I do.

I mean, I think it’s more challenging to sell than other types of offers, but it does in fact sell. If anybody wants to do it, I encourage you to learn as much as you can about branding and brand strategy. Of course, you’re welcome to DM me and we can have a chat together.

Rob Marsh:  All right, Kira, I know we didn’t record this one too long ago, so it’s pretty fresh. We both kind of gone back through and made a few notes about what stood out to us and some of the stuff that Tiffany shared. There’s a lot. There’s a lot of really good stuff here. Why don’t you start out? Let’s talk about what you want to talk about.

Kira Hug:  Yeah. Well, like you said, there’s a lot, but what stood out the most to me is just how impressive Tiffany is when you sit down with her. I’m not surprised that this is her method for landing clients. We talked a lot about networking and building relationships one-on-one, and that is part of how Tiffany has organically connected with people and built her business. When you sit down, and we’ve sat down with Tiffany many times as we worked with her in the think tank, but even just having this intimate conversation on the podcast reminded me of the power of doing that and how for some copywriters that is their strength, sitting down with someone and talking about ideas and really showing their brilliance as an artist.

I think of Tiffany as an artist, and that helps… At least to me, she stands out from all the other copywriters in the space because she really leans into the artistry behind what she does as a craftsperson in this space.

Rob Marsh:  Thinking about what Tiffany shared around the idea of networking and connecting with others, there were really three things that jumped out at me. Number one, she said playing safe is playing small. She said that specifically in relation to sharing your values and your opinions with your brand or wherever you’re showing up, but there’s a lot of truth to that. That doesn’t necessarily mean that you need to show up as this loud proponent for everything that you believe. But oftentimes we default to the things that other people are doing. Because we’re playing safe, we just kind of meld into the mass of everything else and we don’t stand out. We’re not playing as big as we could.

Kira Hug:  That was one of my favorite parts of our conversation with her when she said that, and she said that she loves her work because she lets her brain run wild. I think just that part of the conversation was so powerful to me too, because I think there are times where I’ve played it safe. I feel like even maybe more recently I’ve started playing it safe. It was just a good reminder to really channel that like Tiffany and take more chances.

Rob Marsh:  The number two thing that stood out to me around networking is just her emphasis on nurturing relationships. There’s a whole lot more to actually networking than just handing out a business card or connecting with somebody on LinkedIn. Those are the kinds of things that we think about when we think about networking. They’re maybe the first activities that we do, but the real power in creating those relationships comes from nurturing and maintaining the relationships. You’ve got to be the friend. You’ve got to be there offering advice.

You’ve got to be connecting on a personal level, even with things like small talk and making some time to do that, whether it’s daily or weekly, really matters when it comes to creating relationships that then turn into clients or referrals or even just great support in your business. Number three is when Tiffany mentioned your brand, the brand stories that you tell need to either attract the right customers or repel the customers who are wrong for your business. Again, this goes back to that playing it safe idea, but a good brand isn’t going to appeal to everybody. There’s a lot of things that we’ll do that will push away the people who aren’t right for us, whether they’re wrong on a price level or in a niche level or on a values level or a deliverables level.

There are so many ways that clients are not a good fit for our businesses, and we need to be talking about these things, sharing our brand stories in a way that pushes away the wrong people and attracts the people who we can really help.

Kira Hug:  As we’re talking about networking, Tiffany said she always tries to help people in some way, and she always tries to give to them first without waiting for them to do something for her. I know that’s gone a long way for her because I know she has so many strong relationships just in the copywriting community that we’re in. It’s working for her.

Rob Marsh:  Another thing that I really like is Tiffany’s approach to the process of creating and telling brand stories. She shared her CRAVE framework, and I don’t think we necessarily need to step through each step of those. Again, she did a really great job of talking about it, but the fact that what you’re doing needs to resonate and connect again almost reflects the way that she creates those networking relationships. She’s doing the same thing for the brand she’s working with in telling stories that then connect with their customers. Her framework I think is a really good way of thinking through the process of creating brand stories, brand strategy, and other brand elements that do that.

Kira Hug:  I like how she simplified the whole process by just speaking to a single core truth about your brand and just simplifying it. She shared the example from her brand, which is that authenticity is addictive. The simplicity behind that really stood out to me. I think sometimes we overcomplicate these things, especially when it’s about our own business. I think this concept around a single core truth is something that many of the copywriters listening, including the two of us, can walk through that exercise so we’re really clear about our core truth for our brand.

Rob Marsh:  And then the last thing that I want to bring up from this half of the interview is I asked about some of those deliverables that Tiffany gives to her clients. There are so many ways that copywriters can approach brand strategy and their role in solving brand problems for their clients. You can create things like USPs, value statements, mission statements, vision statements, all of that kind of stuff, but really the value of getting everybody on the same page telling a similar story, sharing the same values is just really critical in building a brand that then can stand on its own maybe even separately from the personality who’s creating it.

Kira Hug:  We talked a little bit about how she sells the brand packages, because we know sometimes that is tricky to sell, even though we know it’s important work. Tiffany said that she gets in front of people and will just sit on a call on Zoom and riff on their ideas. She did that with us. As we interviewed her, it felt like we were riffing about ideas. As I was sitting there interviewing her, I was thinking like she just… I could feel that excitement and that she was really passionate about what she does. I could feel that in an interview, so I’m sure that her customers feel that when she sits down on a sales call with them and is so excited about what they’re doing and sharing ideas.

I think sometimes we talk about holding back on sales calls and not necessarily like giving away our best ideas. This is just a good reminder that there’s not one way to conduct a sales call. For Tiffany, if it’s getting on a call and sharing some of her brilliance on the call to sell people into working with her, that may work really well, even though sometimes we say don’t do that. I think it just depends on your zone of genius and how you show up on those calls.

Rob Marsh:  I like the approach of sharing as much as possible upfront. I think back to my ad agency days. When we would go to pitch a client, we would go in with two or three… Like a brand new client, not an existing client, but we’re trying to win the business and we would go in with two or three different campaigns, almost fully developed ad ideas, headlines, body copy, because we wanted them to see the breadth of our thinking. We wanted them to see the different kinds… Not just with one campaign, but with several so that they could see, “Oh yeah. If we can’t play it this way, we also have ideas in this direction.”

It was really about sharing as much as possible to impress the clients. I think that really works on a sales call. Most clients don’t have the capability to actually develop and execute on the ideas that we share. Feeling free to share all kinds of stuff in that initial call, you’re not necessarily giving them the roadmap or the ability to do it themselves, but you are sharing what it is that you can help them do.

Kira Hug:  You’re showing them that you’re a creative and also that you’ve done your homework. That’s impressive. The last thing I want to share, because we talked a lot about networking in this conversation, is that Seth Godin recently sent an email about likability too. It wasn’t quite the same angle that we talked about in the podcast interview, but he says if you want to be more liked, begin by liking, especially with your customers, right? If you want to be more liked by your customers. Like them more.

I think Tiffany does that really well. She just genuinely appreciates so many different people and types of people that people can feel that, and I think that’s helped her strengthen her relationships. It also goes along with just if you want to be an interesting person, be interested in other people. I think that captures Tiffany’s approach to relationships pretty well.

Rob Marsh:  I think it’s really well said. There’s never any harm in showing kindness and liking other people, regardless of who they are or what they might believe about you.

Kira Hug:  Well, let’s get back to our conversation with Tiffany and hear what Tiffany had to share about avoiding branding mistakes.

Rob Marsh:  Obviously, Tiffany, a lot of your work is in helping clients do this stuff right. Aside from not having a brand story as an anchor or not having a brand strategy that you’re helping your team to follow, what are some other mistakes that you see your clients or potential clients making when they approach this in a wrong way or when they’re not doing it quite right?

Tiffany A. Ingle:  A lot of people make the mistake of treating themselves like a commodity. As a result, they end up looking to other people as a blueprint for what they should be doing, if that makes sense, instead of taking the time to find the answers within themselves so that they can walk a path that makes sense for their business and for what they’re doing, for who they’re doing it for. That’s the biggest mistake. And then going back to example earlier, my personal example of just kind of constantly being on the lookout for different puzzle pieces that were ill-fitting because I didn’t have a sense of how a successful business should look.

That really makes me sad, like genuinely makes me sad when I meet people who have invested so much time and so much energy into getting their businesses off the ground and they’ve not made as much progress as they wanted to make because they don’t really know where they’re going. For me, if I can help a newer business owner really make traction, or if I can help a feuding team get it together, that is very satisfying for me.

Kira Hug:  I want to jump back to fantasy. I feel proud of myself as we’re talking about this because I’ve been binging Stranger Things. Also, I’m now reading. I don’t read a lot of science fiction, but I am reading science fiction right now. I’m finally tapping into fantasy. It’s taken a while. I’m curious how you do this on a regular basis. Are you talking about D and D? Are you talking about just like the books you select? How are you doing this, Tiffany?

Tiffany A. Ingle:  First of all, I’m so happy that you’re getting into fantasy, because in the past, he’s talked about this and you’re like, “Eh, fantasy.” How do I do this? I’m just a consummate nerd. Every kind of fantasy book that I can get my hands on and read. I’m not a big D and D player, but I have played before and I’m going to get back into it. I’m creating a character now. I watch movies. I read articles about fantasy, but definitely a lot of tabletop games and even like games with my kids, because I really do believe in the power of fantasy. We’re exposing them as early as possible to all the things that we like, we being my husband and me. Every day I’m either reading something or playing some game that helps me to think better.

Rob Marsh:  Let’s list a couple of favorite books because now I’m curious what Kira is reading in science fiction or whatever. I read quite a bit of fantasy as a kid, and then I kind of left off for a long time. I read the Lloyd Alexander books and stuff when I was young. And then a few years ago I started reading some fantasy that’s sort of a historical base, so some of Bernard Cornwell’s like… What is it, The Last Kingdom series? That kind of stuff. But I’m curious, Tiffany, like if you’re saying, “Hey, if you want to get into this,” what are some basic stories, books, some of your favorite series that you’d recommend? Kira, I’m curious like what’s the sci-fi that you’re reading?

Tiffany A. Ingle:  Rob, this is my time to shine. I’m so excited.

Rob Marsh:  Do it. Let’s create a list.

Kira Hug:  Let’s geek out here.

Tiffany A. Ingle:  I feel so good. The books I read, they’re not purely fantasy. Some of them are fantasy adjacent genres like Afrofuturism and like dystopian survival, things like that. But one of my favorite series is The Giver Quartet by Lois Lowry. Most people, or maybe a lot of people, are familiar with The Giver, but it’s the first book and a series and it’s just so good. Don’t watch that movie. Please read the books because the movie, sorry, Lois Lowry, but I don’t know why she let them do her that way. They did her dirty. The books are masterpieces. They’re amazing. I also am a big fan of Octavia E. Butler.

The Parable of the Sower is a good one. Wild Seed is another amazing one by her, and Kindred. Kindred is very difficult to read emotionally, but so good. I’m reading N. K. Jemisin The Inheritance Trilogy, which is really cool. It’s about gods and mortals and vengeance, which is right up my alley. Of course, A Song of Ice and Fire series George R.R. Martin is very good, very popular right now. I would say reading the books is definitely worthwhile, even if you’ve seen Game of Thrones.

Rob Marsh:  Although, although you’ll never get to the end because he hasn’t finished it just, just like with the series.

Tiffany A. Ingle:  Yeah, yeah, yeah. Honestly, yeah. I’m a little angry with him. I don’t think I’ll ever meet him, so it’s all good. But yeah, I definitely have some resentment there that I’m never going to know how it ends. Oh, and Neil Gaiman. I mean, he’s a master, American Gods, Anansi Boys, Neverwhere. There’s a lot of great, great fantasy series to get into, or even The Chronicles of Narnia or Lord of the Rings, Lovecraft Country, things like that.

Kira Hug:  I know you hit on this before. Well, okay. I’ll share the book first, because Rob wanted to know. I’m reading The Ministry for the Future by Kim Stanley Robinson. Rob, have you read that one?

Rob Marsh:  Nope. Nope. But I’m like as you guys are mentioning them, I’m typing these in. I’m like, okay, should I check out this one? I’m just checking out plots on Wikipedia and maybe I’ll check out a couple of these.

Kira Hug:  Well, this one was chosen by President Barack Obama as one of his favorite books of the year. It’s a good one. I’m in chapter four and it’s incredible. The question was, I know you touched on this earlier, but now that we’re really digging into fantasy, can you just kind of list for someone kind of like me a couple months ago who’s not into fantasy, who has just put it on the side maybe like Rob sine childhood and is excited about this, can you just kind of list some of the benefits that you’ve experienced, Tiffany, from tapping into this? I mean, not that everything has to have an ROI, but it sounds like it has had some benefits for you as a business owner and then just as a human.

Tiffany A. Ingle: Yeah, definitely. I think that fantasy helps me to be more imaginative, and that is so important for innovation. You have to have the right inputs to keep your imagination in top shape. I always say you’re not going to get anything like that from personal development porn. Novel problems require novel solutions. I think you get that by letting your brain roam free. When you get into a fantasy book and you’re in a completely different world with different rules and different geography and peoples and cultures and histories, I mean, it really is eye-opening. We know that the decision to buy begins with emotions.

I think when you are a person who indulges in fantasy, it helps you to just add a little whimsy to your personal life and to your business. And that is a wonderful way to entice people to engage with you and maybe fall in love with who you are and what you stand for. If you want people to really buy into your vision, you’ve got to know how to connect with people in a visceral way. I think fantasy teaches you how to build those connections in a way that is really fun and awe-inspiring.

Rob Marsh:  I appreciate too what you’re saying about how fiction helps us see things in ways that personal development books don’t. I would say the same thing about a lot of business books. If you want to learn about leadership, don’t read a book about leadership. Read a book or two about leaders. You can learn more from the story of how a business was founded and the challenges that they went through or the life story of a particular president or corporate developer, whatever. But I think there’s so much more to be learned from real stories, as opposed to when we just pull the lessons out and we disconnect them from the challenges, from the experiences that people have.

I think we lose something. I think fiction and probably fantasy or some of the related genres around fantasy do that better than other categories might.

Tiffany A. Ingle:  Yeah, absolutely. I mean, a list of bullet points or, I don’t know, think pieces that really drive the kind of content that people love to read in the business world, that kind of stuff doesn’t stick with you. Learning about someone’s struggles and how they overcame that. Just like having the context of like their actual lives, something that you can see yourself in, something that you can draw on as an example when you’re dealing with something really challenging, I think that’s the kind of thing that really makes a difference in your life and your ability to just weather the storms of being an entrepreneur.

Kira Hug:  Tiffany, you mentioned that you are an extreme introvert. I’m just curious how you take care of yourself as a business owner, as a creative, as a mother in a world that oftentimes feels like it was not designed for introverts.

Tiffany A. Ingle:  That’s a really great question. I appreciate that you asked that. The first thing that comes to mind is therapy. I’m a big fan. My therapist is on maternity leave right now and I cannot wait until she gets back.

Kira Hug:  You’re like, “Can you come back? Thank you.”

Tiffany A. Ingle:  Oh my gosh, I mean, she is amazing. Just incredible. That’s one way I cope. The other thing is just having boundaries. I recently had to get rid of most social media from my phone. I’m in a couple of Discord groups, but I will also put on focus mode and just leave it on for a couple of days if need be, so that the only thing I’m getting on my phone is like emails and actual calls. There’s that. I try to do something creative that isn’t connected with my business too. Sometimes that’s just journaling or coloring or I make collages, which is so like, old-fashioned. I always feel like I’m an elderly woman when I tell people what my hobbies are because I do cross stitch too, just stuff like that.

I mean, that’s really it. I am very fortunate to have some amazing people in my life. Friends I’ve made through doing business, some of them I have not actually met in person yet, but I plan to, but we have this shared experience of trying to do big things in the world. These are the people that I can talk to at like 3:00 in the morning if I’m like anxious. 3:00 in the morning because maybe they’re in Ireland or somewhere pretty far away from Seattle. But yeah, just talking to people who can relate to the experiences I’m having and just making art purely for the enjoyment of it. That’s how I take care of myself.

Rob Marsh:  Can we talk a little bit more about anxiety and how it shows up, but more importantly, some of the things that you do in order to work through it? I know oftentimes there’s no overcoming it. But in addition to fantasy and the skills, the ideas that that brings, when you are anxious, Tiffany, what do you do? What’s your toolbox for still getting stuff done and showing up the way that you want to show up for your business and your brand?

Tiffany A. Ingle:  Sure, yeah. I’m always happy to talk about anxiety along with grief and mortality, because I find that we, business owners, we tend to shy away from really personal topics like that because we’re afraid of how people are going to judge us. But the fact is people are going to judge you all the time no matter what you say. I talk about those things because they impact my work. One of the ways that I confront anxiety is with my art. I like to say that anxiety is a superpower of mine because the only real cure for it that I’ve found is taking action. Creating gives me relief. And again, talking to people.

Just tell them, “Hey, I feel anxious right now,” so that I’m not so obsessed with trying to appear like I’m calm that I start to have trouble communicating, or so that I’m not making myself behave in a way that is just worse than if I would just be honest about what’s going on with me. For me, that’s not oversharing. I think maybe for someone else they would consider talking that openly about mental health oversharing for them. That’s fine. I guess I would recommend that they have a therapist or a close circle of friends that they could confide in then because you have to get it out. If you keep it inside, it’s only going to get worse.

Kira Hug:  I am curious, Tiffany, what specifically has helped you the most in your business? Just feel like you really hit your stride and just things are clicking. Maybe there are multiple ingredients, but what comes to mind for you?

Tiffany A. Ingle:  All right. A couple months ago, I received some really good advice from someone in one of the communities I’m in. He’s my peak performance partner, which is such a cool title, by the way. We were sharing our goals for 2022. He went first. And then when I shared mine, he was a little disappointed and he gave me a warning. He said that all my goals were tied to things that were outside my control. He advised me to find ways to measure my success that are 100% within my control. Things like working out, for example.

I can’t control what I’m going to look like after six months of lifting weights, but I can control the fact that I lift the weights however many times a week consistently. I can control how often I send my newsletter. I can control how often I get in touch with people, my audience, just to see how they’re feeling about what I’m doing and if I’m serving them in the way that they need to be served. Just really shifting the focus away from the outcomes and looking at the practice instead.

Rob Marsh:  Can we also ask about how you get stuff done? I know you have homeschooled your kids and you’re running a business at the same time. Some of us have the advantage of having our kids at a public school or they’re away for a while. You haven’t had that. I’m curious, how do you get it all done? What’s the strategy for making sure that you can take care of your clients and your family literally at the same time?

Tiffany A. Ingle:  To be transparent, I don’t know how I get it done. I just do. All right. I am very fortunate that my husband and I both work remotely. He does not own a business besides… I mean, he owns Ingleheim Media with me, but he’s not active in it. He’s a silent partner, but he works from home like most of the time. We have a really good balance of making sure that when I need to be in a meeting, he’s got the kids in his office or they’re in their playroom, and vice versa. When he’s got something going on, I’ve got the kids with me. My older children are nine and seven, and so they are a little bit more independent with their schoolwork than they were when they were like four or five.

They are able to come and work next to me if they can do it quietly, and most of the time they can. A lot of times they’re just off camera while I’m meeting with a client, or I’m typing something up, they’re sprawled out on the floor or seated at a table working. It’s a little challenging with my three-year-old, which both of you have seen him bopping around before, but he’s starting to understand the game, like how things work around here. He’s part of the culture. A lot of times he will like to paint in my husband’s office. My husband’s really a big fantasy nerd too. He’s got like little figures for DMing like D and D games and stuff. He’s got all kinds of paints and supplies. Our son is in there painting a lot of times, or sometimes he’s on my lap.

My clients know that I have kids and they don’t mind because my children are really curious and they’re pretty well behaved considering how young they are. I’ve been very fortunate in that regard. But sometimes I’ve got to get up really early just to have some quiet time or stay up late depending on the day, but I make it work. As far as their school work, what’s been really cool is finding ways to integrate our lives together. My children are very interested in business. We have conversations about what I’m doing and we incorporate it into their work. Sometimes we have to change up the plan a little bit. If things are a little chaotic for me, maybe they have to spend some time coding instead of doing like a workbook.

We also school year-round. That gives us a lot of flexibility. My kids are… It’s summertime now, but they’re not on a break, but it doesn’t feel like… They don’t feel bad about it because that’s how it’s always been. We make education and business just a part of our lives together as a family and so far it’s working.

Kira Hug:  That’s really inspiring. I appreciate you sharing behind the scenes. All right. As we start to wrap, I want to know what’s coming up next for you. I know we had chatted about a summit that you’re working on. What are you excited about right now?

Tiffany A. Ingle:  Oh, the next seven months are going to be a whirlwind for me and my team, and I’m just really, really pleased. You mentioned the summit. I am doing a summit. My podcast is hosting the summit technically. It’s Authenticity is Addictive Brand Summit. We’re going to be doing that late October, early November. I’m going to put it to a vote with the speakers that I have on board so far, because I want it to be something where we can all participate easily. But I’m in this really cool group that Liv Steigrad started. I don’t know if she’s been on the show yet. I hope she will be someday so people know who I’m talking about, but it’s a group for brand voice strategists.

I let them know that I want to do a summit and that I have not been able to find a conference or a summit on branding happening anywhere in the world. I’m sure they exist, but again, I don’t know. They’ve all said the same thing. We’re going to get together and talk about all things branding, brand strategy, brand voice. We’re going to get some designers in to do that to cover like the visual bits of branding. I’m just really happy. I’m happy too because at least for this first year, the lineup is all women or women-identifying people. We’ve got a significant portion of speakers who are people of color or who represent minority groups, people who are members of the LGBTQIA community.

It’s really awesome to be putting something together where voices that aren’t as prominent get to be heard. There’s that. I’m also writing a book. It’s the Brand Strategy Grim War. I don’t know when that’s going to be done, but it’s going to get done. I’m writing that because people are always asking me what brand strategy is. And for the longest time, I’ve just been giving people like this gigantic stack of books to read or gigantic list, excuse me. But I realized that everyone isn’t going to take the time to dive into all the books that I’ve read that helped me to learn branding. I’m basically going to share what I know about branding and ways to dive into it and get started with offering brand strategy to your clients.

I guess the last thing that is really exciting to me is I’m going to bring back my podcast, Authenticity is Addictive. We’ve been on hiatus for a long, long time. But after we have the summit, we’re going to do the podcast. I’m just really happy because my podcast, it’s a great way to highlight the work of people who are doing amazing things. It’s another way that I get to network and make friends.

Rob Marsh:  Okay, so we know what’s going on, but we don’t have any links yet. If somebody wants to attend the summit or they want to find out more about your podcast or even read the book or work with you, Tiffany, where should they go in order to get that information?

Tiffany A. Ingle:  Right. I have a Linktree account. It’s linktree/tiffanyaingle. You can find everything that’s worth your time there. You can get access to one of my free resources, Brand Story Magic. You can sign up for my email list, my newsletter Authenticity is Addictive. You can apply for brand strategy coaching with me. You can listen to my podcast or figure out how to find my DM so you can actually have a conversation with me.

Kira Hug:  Thank you so much, Tiffany, for being a part of this conversation, and I’m going to make you a friend forever as you do with other people. You are not escaping that. I just feel really inspired between binging Stranger Things last week, reading this book, the science fiction book. Having this conversation with you, I feel like I am so ready to embrace my inner nerd. Thank you for giving me that. I appreciate it.

Tiffany A. Ingle:  You’re welcome, Kira. Yeah, definitely. We are friends for life. Rob, you and I are friends for life too, just so you know.

Rob Marsh:  I’m totally up for it. In fact, I may be knocking on your door to hang out sooner than you think. Let’s do it.

Kira Hug:  He’ll bring his D and D. Be ready for some D and D. Right, Rob?

Tiffany A. Ingle:   Oh, we’ll be ready for sure. Yeah, awesome. Thank you for having me on today. It’s been great and I can’t wait to see you guys again, spend some time with you wherever, whenever.

Kira Hug:  Soon. We’ll come to you. We’ll go to Seattle.

Rob Marsh:  That’s the end of the interview with Tiffany. Before we jump off, Kira, how many fantasy books did you add to your reading list as Tiffany was running through them all?

Kira Hug:  I definitely wrote some of them down. I currently have a lot of books next to my bed, so I am not adding any more for now, but I am keeping those in mind. I will revisit this podcast when I need more books. And as I already shared in that conversation, I’m leaning more into fantasy. I’m loving the book I’m currently reading, which I had already shared, a science fiction. I feel very excited about this door that’s been opened for me recently.

Rob Marsh:  Yeah, and I noted that… I don’t read a lot of fantasy. I used to when I was a kid and had picked up a couple in the last few years, whatever. I made a note of about five or six books. Went into overdrive to see if they’re available at some of the libraries that I get audiobooks from. I may listen to one or two on my runs over the next couple of weeks. Maybe I’ll report back and share how much I like or don’t like the books that she recommended.

Kira Hug:  It’s messed up that I’ve moved away from fantasy too as an adult and like a professional. I really did dive into so many business books and professional development books, but Tiffany makes a really strong case for it. It’s a shame that I even need a case to read fantasy, but she makes a great one about how it can help you with critical thinking. Just hearing that, that gives me a reason with my limited time to do it where I’m like, okay, this is not just fun, but this is going to help me think more critically in business and in life. She mentioned it will help you let your brain roam free.

And that if you want to solve novel problems, then that requires novel solutions. The way to do that is by reading these fantasy or tapping into fantasy movies and games. Again, I’m embarrassed that I needed a case for it, but I did. If you need a reason to, I think Tiffany can push you over the edge.

Rob Marsh:  And it’s not just fantasy. I remember hearing that Gary Halbert would give all of his copy cubs a Travis McGee book, and that’s a crime thriller story or whatever. I think there’s like 20 of them that John MacDonald wrote. It really is about stories. It’s about language. It’s just getting used to hearing words in different ways. But also, fiction is just so good at capturing the human experience and seeing different ideas, different ways of living, different plots. Maybe fantasy isn’t your bag, but don’t give up on fiction. There are plenty of other fiction writers out there who are extremely good writers. I love crime fiction, and so I read a lot of Michael Connelly.

I think if he wrote in a general fiction genre, he would have all kinds of prizes to his name and not just the crime writer prizes, because he’s just such a great writer. There are good writers in all genres.

Kira Hug:  This is just a reminder, I think variety is key, right, just with your own reading. For so long, I was just reading one type of book over and over again. It’s taken me a while to open my eyes to everything else that’s out there. I know we talked about Dungeons and Dragons, but this is something that is on my bucket list because I really want to get into it and I want my kids to be into it with me. That’s something I want to happen over the next few months.

Rob Marsh:  Awesome. I’m not sure I’m a Dungeons and Dragons aficionado. I played when I was like in eighth grade or whatever, but I’ll stick with the books I think for now.

Kira Hug:  Okay, that’s fair. What else stood out to you as we were wrapping up this conversation?

Rob Marsh:  One other thing that I really like that Tiffany mentioned when we’re just talking about getting things done, but also her toolbox for anxiety and overcoming negative events, all of that, when she shared the idea of shifting away from outcomes and focusing on practice or forgetting the things that are out of your control and focusing on the things that are in your control. Moving away from goals like, oh, I’m going to make $100,000, or I’m going to work with 20 ideal clients, because those things are not entirely in your control. You can’t make your clients say yes to you. You can’t necessarily have them say yes to a particular dollar amount. And then moving towards something that you can control.

I’m going to pitch 10 clients this month, or I’m going to create a product that solves a problem for my client that is worth $5,000 or $10,000, or really focusing on the things that are entirely in your control that then can result in some of those outcomes that we tend to focus on with our goals. In saying that, I’m not saying that the goals are bad. If the goal is six-figure business or something else, have that as the goal. But when you sit down every day to get stuff done, focus on the stuff that’s in your control. Let the anxiety and worry go and just get stuff done and eventually you’re going to hit those goals.

Kira Hug:  I agree with all of that and I highlighted it too, because it’s so important, but I think the goals are important. We talk about goals with copywriters to kind of understand where they want to go. If you’re talking about building a million-dollar business over the next five years, that’s going to change the activities that we may talk about and what we may suggest you focus on or what, Rob, the two of us are focused on, what day-to-day activities that we can control based off the big goal. I mean, you said it well, but those goals are really important for understanding where you’re going, because that will change the activities that you’re focused on.

It all works together. It’s a big part of why you and I are focusing on habits in the new product that we’ve created around client acquisition, because those day-to-day behavior changes that you can actually control, that’s what moves the needle. That’s why we’re focusing more on integrating that into our business practices.

Rob Marsh:  It’s something that we touch on a little bit in the accelerator when we talk about the four things. They’re small practices every single day that you can do that really move your business forward. Something that is important in everybody’s business is to have those tiny habits that help us make progress. It’s additive, right? It’s not just, well, I get one thing done today and then one thing done tomorrow, but those things add up. Your knowledge grows. It compounds just like interest does. Doing a little thing today and every day ends up getting you a lot farther a year or two down the road than you would be otherwise. We want to thank Tiffany Ingle for joining us to share her experience on brand strategy and letting us have a peek inside her business.

If you’d like to connect with Tiffany, we’ve linked to her Linktree in the show notes. There’s lots of places there where you can find her summit, her podcast, her website. Be sure to check those out and say hi. I guarantee, if you say hi to her, she will be answering back and she will make you her friend. Before we leave, we want to share five-star review from listen Hellyeschris who said this. He said, “I’ve been listening…” Oh, I think it’s a he. Maybe Chris is a she. I’m sorry if I don’t get that right, but, “I’ve been listening to this podcast since back in 2017 when it started and have loved learning about the unique experiences, points of view, and skills some of these copy peeps bring to the table.

Kira and Rob are really good at bringing up the mindset shifts and important turning points from each guest. This is how you truly learn, not by blindly adopting their techniques and tactics.” Thanks, Chris, for listening and for leaving that review. If you’d like us to mention you on a future episode, you can leave a review for the show as well. Just visit Apple Podcast and share your thoughts.

Kira Hug:  And if you want even more resources about building a strong personal brand, check out episode 56, way back at the beginning of the podcast, with Sarah Ashman, who has spoken at TCCIRL and who I’ve worked with closely on creating my personal brand. Another brand-focused episode worth listening to is number 76 with our friend Tepsii. Finally, if you want to join the How to Find Clients Workshop Intensive, then be sure to head to the link in the show notes or jump on our email list, because we’re sending a handful of messages out over the next few days. Just don’t wait because there are only a couple of days you can jump into this beta opportunity.

Rob Marsh:  That’s the end of this episode of The Copywriter Club Podcast. The intro music was composed by copywriter and songwriter Addison Rice. The outro is composed by copywriter and songwriter David Muntner. If you like what you’ve heard, share a screenshot of the episode with your favorite takeaway and tag us on Instagram or Facebook or LinkedIn, or just pass it on to someone who might like it too. Thanks for listening. We’ll see you next week. 

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