TCC Podcast #88: What you need to know to use Facebook effectively with Rick Mulready - The Copywriter Club
TCC Podcast #88: What you need to know to use Facebook effectively with Rick Mulready

Our guest for the 88th episode of The Copywriter Club Podcast is Facebook Ads Expert Rick Mulready. Kira and Rob sat down with Rick to ask him about his story and how he became the go-to-guy for everything related to Facebook marketing. Here are a few of the things they talked about:

•  the mistake he made when he started his business that held him back
•  how he structures his days to get more done
•  how he’s grown his team to handle the parts of the business he can’t handle
•  the programs and products he’s built to sustain his business
•  the Insta-story opportunity that’s open for the taking
•  how to get started with Facebook (the first step will sound familiar)
•  the kinds of ads that are working today
•  what you can do with FB ads to increase engagement and make connections
•  the images you should be using in your Facebook ads
•  how we can use FB ads to market our own (copywriting) businesses and stand out
•  what has changed with launches and how Rick is thinking differently about them
•  how you can get started with FB ads even if you have no experience
•  where you should do Facebook Lives (on the page or in a group)
•  how Rick connects with authority figures (and how we can do the same thing)

There’s a ton of great information here for anyone who wants to start advertising on Facebook as well as for any copywriter who works with clients who use Facebook to promote their products and services. You won’t want to miss it. To hear the entire interview, click the play button below, or for a full transcript, scroll down.

The people and stuff we mentioned on the show:
The Art of Paid Traffic
The FB Ads Diagnosis Check List (mention troubleshoot)
Ashlyn Carter
Amy Porterfield
Chanti Zak
Kira’s website
Rob’s website
The Copywriter Club Facebook Group
Intro: Content (for now)
Outro: Gravity

Full Transcript:

Facebook Expert Rick Mulready

Kira:What if you could hang out with seriously talented copywriters and other experts, ask them about their successes and failures, their work processes and their habits, then steal an idea or two to inspire your own work? That’s what Rob and I do every week at The Copywriter Club Podcast.

Rob:You’re invited to join the club for episode 88, as we chat with paid traffic expert Rick Mulready, about Facebook advertising and what copywriters need to learn about making it work; how he’s built his own business empire; what’s working and what’s not working in launches today; and the importance of teaming up with the right people to move your business forward.

Kira:Welcome, Rick.

Rob: Hey, Rick!

Rick:I am so honored to be here; thanks for having me on!

Rob:We’re excited.


Rick:You guys just said ‘episode number 88’; is that what you guys said?


Kira: Yeah!Laughs.

Rob:88. Can you believe it?

Rick: Laughs. No! I was like, I feel like you guys just started this, like it’s…I mean, I know it’s been going amazingly well, but are you doing like four a day or something like that?


Kira:Laughs. We’re pulling one everyday; yeah…

Rick:Laughs. Congratulations! Amazing.

Kira: Yeah! Thank you! And I know, Rick, we’ve worked together in the past, and we’ve talking about bringing you on the show for a while, so now it’s finally happening, and a good place to start is with your story, especially for people who aren’t familiar with you yet. How did you end up running your empire?

Rick:Laughs. You use that word; I just laugh at that word.

Kira:It’s an awful word! Laughs.

Rick:And just for everybody listening, before we got going here, Kira said, ‘Is there anything that you don’t want to talk about,’ and I said, ‘Nah, I’m an open book,’ and the thing of it is, is Kira knows a lotabout me, because we’ve worked together with writing copy. And so I said that, and I’m like, ‘Ooh, wait; Kira knows a lotabout me’, and I’m saying nothing’s off the table here.

So yeah. It’s been a very cool journey. I mean, when I think about it, it’s only been really not only four and a half years. It was January of 2015 when the business truly got started. I say ‘truly’ because I left the corporate world in the fall of 2012, and I fumbled around for fifteen months. I was like, ‘Oh yeah, I’m going to be an online entrepreneur,’ and I had no idea really, truly, what that meant. And, so, I left the corporate world, and I had money saved, and thought I was going to, you know, create this amazing business doing Facebook ads, and by the end of 2013, I was quickly running out of money because I really didn’t know how to create my own business, and then, hired a coach, got support, got community, in January of 2014, and that’s when things really started to take off for me and get some structure in the business, really. And, for the past four years, a little over four years now, I’m super, super grateful.

I’ve seen hockey-stick growth; we’ve been growing really quickly over the past years, and this year’s looking no different. And, I’m really excited about it. I think the lack of clarity of what I truly wanted to focus on in that first year where, after I left the corporate world, really hurt me. And it was that January of 2014 when I said, in working with a coach at that time, it was, “What am I truly going to—what am I going to sellhere? What am I going to be known for,” if you will. And I had that sort of imposter syndrome at that time. I was like, “Who am I to be teaching Facebook ads? I mean, at the time, I had spent twelve, almost thirteen years in the corporate world of online advertising, but, I was like, “Yeah. Who am I to be teaching Facebook ads, there’s all the other amazing people out there.”

And when I kind of got over all and just embraced it, and went for it at that point, that’s when things, you know, really started to get some momentum at that time.

Rob:So Rick, you mentioned that when you started your business, you sort of new what you wanted to do but you had no idea about runninga business.


Rob:Like, will you talk a little bit about that, because I think that’s something that a lot of copywriters run into in their businesses. Like, we’ve got this technical skill that we have, and we’re pretty good at it, or we think we’re good at it, so, why not do that for a living? But, there’s all this other stuff that we don’t know in order to be successful.

Rick:Yeah, exactly. So I had decided about two and a half years before I had actually left the corporate world what I was going to do, and I just said you know what? I wasn’t doing Facebook ads in the corporate world, but I was working with some of the biggest brands in the world on their campaigns, but also I was working with AOL, working for Yahoo, working for Funny or Die. So I was working forsome of the big brands in the world, while I was there working with other huge brands. So obviously, I understood the world of online business, but I wasn’t doing Facebook ads at that point. So, when I was like, “You know what? I want to do something different. I want to create my own schedule,” you know the whole cliché, like: “I want to do my own thing, I want to create my own schedule, I want to serve the people that I want to serve…” I decided, okay, you know at that point, I saw what was going on with Facebook, and because I have that online marketing background, I naturally gravitated towards the advertising side of Facebook, so that’s when I dove in and everything and I started teaching myself and started running Facebook ads, and everything like that.

And I was like, “Yeah, I can do this,” but then, when I left the corporate world, it was like, “Holy cow.” You lose the structure; you lose the “security”, which is a falsehood; like, okay. I know I can do this. I know howto do this, meaning Facebook ads; I know the skill, but then, it’s like, how do I get clients? I do I create offers that they want to purchase? All that type of stuff. That’s the stuff that i didn’t have a grasp on. And I’d only known it from the corporate side, and with these big brands and with what they were doing, but then, you know, breaking it down to what I could be doing to create my own business, I was like very lost. And for it was that fifteen months or so, after I’d left where I—like I said, I fumbled around and just really tried to find my way. And I started out with Facebook outs during those fifteen months; then I kind of stepped back, and was like, “Well, maybe I’ll do allof social media; and teach allof social media.” And then, it wasn’t like I mentioned before, until I went sort of back in and focused on Facebook ads, and started to say, “Okay, you know what? This is how I’m going to leverage Facebook ads in order to build my business, and get really focused on what I can offer people and how I can help them.

Kira:You mentioned “structure” a couple of times, that you know, the change in January 2014, the coaching and the structure and maybe a couple other ingredients. What did that structure look like early on, and why was that so helpful for you?

Rick: First of all, I remember I left the corporate world on a Friday, and I remember getting up on that Monday morning, not knowing what to do with myself! I was like, wait a minute: “I normally go into an office right now, and I don’t have to do that right now!” So I was lost. And, it was the Fall, so we’re getting into the Holiday time at that. So, it didn’t really hit me honestly until January. So it took me a few months honestly for things, because the holidays had died down at that point, and I was kind of getting into the reality of like, “Okay, I need to create structure for myself, in order to build this business,” but again, because I didn’t know what I was doing with building this business, the structure was all over the place.

And, I mean, I just sort of dove in, and I started to, you know…when I was working, I would try to structure my day when I’m most fresh. Like, I’m a morning person. I’m not an evening person or a night person. And so, that’s kind of when I tended to do my work. Even when I was in the corporate world, I was doing my work before in the morning. And I would also do some in the evening as well, but primarily in the morning. And, I’ll be honest with you, Kira, that structure, it’s still a working progress. After all this time.

So, four and a half years later here, I’m still figuring out—and it’s just fluid for me. Like, what works best for me as far as blocking time, and you know, now what I’m doing in the business. And again, I’m always experimenting to see what works best for me, but, I’m finding right now that where I—if I have days, like specific days of the week, for certain things, like, so for example, Tuesday and Thursday are the days where i do interviews or meetings or calls or whatever, and then, I look to leave the other days—Monday, Wednesday, Friday—open for big blocks of time for content creation, and stuff like that. But that’s something I’ve played with for a while now. And, also, with that structure of early morning stuff for me, because that’s my—I like to call “magic time”, that’s where, you know my brain’s turned on and I’m’ freshest at that time, and I try to structure my day around that, and so I try to get the most important things done in the morning time up until around lunch-ish, somewhere around there, and then I’ll take a break, and then you know, I’ll come back to work in the afternoon. And something, honestly, that—if I’m being truly, truly honest about this—something I struggle with is, I used to work way too late into the evening.

And, that really affected a lot of things. Like, I wasn’t truly working on “the right things”, and so it affected my health; it affected my demeanor, you know; it was hard on Amy, my wife, and just, you know, that has really shifted and something I had to be aware of very quickly. But that was a couple years ago where that was a real challenge for me. It’s not so much anymore, but, you know like I mentioned, it’s always a working progress for me.

Rob:Before we jump into all of our questions about Facebook, Rick, I’m curious about your business today; how you’re spending your time in addition to hostingtwo podcasts. Do you work with clients? Are you building programs, like, what is it that you’re doing on a daily basis to bring in money?

Rick: Yeah. So, in the past six months, we’ve rolled out some new things, and, for 2018–for me—this is all about a few different things. Number one: building the team. A lot of people are surprised to learn that for…for the last for fours, pretty much it’s been me and one other person on a day-to-day basis. And then I have contractors that do other things, but, finally I’m growing the team. And, we now have three people day-to-day, so that’s been a big focus for me, as far as where I’m focusing my time. And building up the team, so that I can pull away and ensure that I’m only working on the things that I should be working on, from a content perspective, or sales, or creating content like podcasts and so forth. But as far as selling goes…

So I have my three programs, my three online programs. One of them is for Facebook managers, so it’s called FB Ad Manager, and that teaches ad managers how to create a business; managing Facebook ads for other businesses. So it teaches the business side, and also the Facebook ads side. Then I have my flagship program, which is the very first one that I created: it was called FB Advantage, and that’s for online businesses, so people who have only business—teaches you how to use Facebook ads to automate leads and sales. So then I have FB Advantage Local, which is the same sort of program but for local business; teaching local businesses how to use Facebook ads. In addition to that, I rolled out a twelve-month group coaching program. Because people are, you know, constantly wanting to work more closely with me, and it’s like, “Okay. How do I leverage my time to be able to do that, because I love that type of closer connection, high-level coaching.

So I have the Accelerator Group Coaching program, and then also, as we’re recording this right now, I’m literally rolling out in the next week and a half, a new membership program that talks all about… So it’s kind of two-part. Number one: it’s what are the latest updates to Facebook that people running Facebook ads need to know about, because it’s those changes, it’s those updates, that, if they’re not up on that, then their Facebook ads can suffer, and quite possibly run the issues with policy and so forth. So, that is a big aspect of it. I do kind of a state of the union—I’m going to do a state of the union on Facebook ads each and every month.

And then also, the second part of that is going to be a Facebook ads sales funnel template. So, I know this is going to be a plug-and-play template where I give you the template of the month, basically break it down and show you every aspect of the funnel; it’s like paint-by-numbers. You can take it, put it right into your business. So that’s something that people have been asking me about, this type of membership, for about a year and a half, now. And we’re finally getting to it. So I’m really, really exciting about that program, and the group coaching program, in addition to the other programs, and finally, finally—as Kira knows—we have a new website rolling out.

Kira: Laughs.

Rick: Probably in the next seven days, honestly!

Kira: Oh really! Great!

Rick:Yep, you didn’t know that! Chuckles.

Kira: Laughs.

Rick: That’s finally rolling out, and once that’s rolled out, we’re just going to make it easier for people to get their hands on these programs, because I get a lot of feedback from people who are like, “Hey, I went to your site and, you know, enrollment is open-and-close on the courses,” so we’re going to make it easier to get into those programs that they want, at the right time for them, because I hear that feedback a lot. They’re like, “Hey, I want to get into this program,” but noticed it was closed. So, we’re working on a lot of stuff.

Kira: So, I made a note to ask you how in the heck you’re juggling all of this, but…

Rick: Laughs.

Kira: Before I do that…

Rick: Sure.

Kira:You mentioned this state of the union on Facebook advertising. Can you share a state of the union with the copywriters? Especially, like, what do copywriters need to be aware of, especially since we have so many that make bright, Facebook ad copy or work on launches… What do we need to know?

Rick: Well I’d say the big thing for copywriters is really being aware of ad policy, and just making sure you’re up on the latest Facebook ads policy. Because, if you’re not, and you’re writing copy, and you know, you’re working for a client, and it’s against policy, you’re going to run into problems there. By the way, the link there is And, a big tip there is, don’t review it and then say, “Okay cool, I’m good with that,” and then wait six months to go back and review it. I mean, Facebook updates that on a consistent basis, and so, you know, that is something that you definitely want to be up on is policy because when you’re writing copy, you know, you have to be careful with things like calling out personal attributes, or, you want to make sure you’re staying on the positive side. You want to be careful with using words like “you”, because you can’t make it seem like you’re—again, it’s that whole personal attribute thing—you can’t say something like: “Are you looking to lose weight?” Cause you’re insinuating, and I don’t make these rules…

Kira: Laughs.

Rick: …but Facebook does. Sounds pretty weird, but in Facebook’s eyes, you’re insinuating that that person needsto lose weight, and that’s a negative experience. And, you got to be really careful with that. You know, as a copywriter, think about it from the perspective of how can I portray that we are adding value, meaning “we” and the client that you’re working with, that you’re adding value to the Facebook audience. Because, at all costs, the whole thing that Facebook is trying to do here is protect the user experience, because they know that even though their revenue is coming from advertisers, that’s not their customer. Their customer is Facebook’s user base. Because without the user base, there’s no advertisers.

So, if you approach it from, number one—knowing policy, number two—how do you have that conversation in a way that’s positiveand, you know, transformational for the person reading it… If you approach it like that, you’re going to be in good shape. That’s the biggest thing from a state of the union from a copywriter’s perspective to really be aware of. Outside of that, there’s all kinds of ad units and opportunities that you could be doing, you know, as far as like, I don’t know, like an Insta-story video. You know, that’s a fifteen second video, so how can you help your client, for example, come up with like some really good copy within, like, to get across what you want to get across, in fifteen seconds? And, that’s an art, you know?

And I know everybody listening to this, is you guys are all great copywriters, so that is something that, you know, being concise there; for me, that’s hard, laughs, because I am not a copy person. And, my brain thinks like, “Well, I got to explain all this,” you know? But how do you really boil it down into clear and concise, like, within fifteen seconds? That’s just one example of the different types of ad units and opportunities that exist with Facebook that, when you’re writing copy or working with a client, you can think about.

Rob: That Insta-story space seems like a really good opportunity for a couple of people to jump in and own right away, because I don’t know of everybody really doing that.

Rick: It is! We did it in…when was the first time we did that? I think we did that in October of last year. October, November last year. And…just a little bit, just to test it out…and, it was great. It was  our second-best performing ad unit. It worked really, really well. And I just did one the other day, just recorded one that’s going to start, I think, tomorrow actually, that is just simple, because the reason that it’s so good, number one, just like you just said, it’s not being used a whole lot. So, you have an opportunity there to kind of get in there and do your thing and stand out.

But the thing you want to be thinking about that, and I know we’re going to be talking about this throughout when get into ads and stuff like that, but just make sure that when you do something like that, that you are staying native to the platform. Meaning like, you want to create an ad and that example there, like, for Insta-story, for video, what types of video, what types of things, are people sharing in their Insta-story? And so your ad should reflect that feeling. And so, for example, people love when I—I don’t really understand why, but—they love when I do Insta-story. It’s like, when I’m walking to get a smoothie or whatever.

Kira: Laughs.

Rick: And for me, it’s just like, I don’t know why anyone would care to watch me do this or talk about this, but people like it, which makes me happy. I had one person reach out and they’re like,  “I love your…” I don’t know what she said. “I love your walk videos”, or something like that.

Kira: Laughs. You’ve got a good walk!

Rick:And so…

Rob:You might have to try something, yeah.

Rick:Yeah! So that’s the type of thing where like, okay, if I’m doing that on a regular basis, I can do an ad like that. I can do a video ad like that, where I’m just walking down the street, because that’s the type of content that you might normally see within that environment. So making sure that you’re creating content that’s native to whatever, you know, wherever you’re posted.

Rob:Okay. So, I know we’ve got some people in our group who are Facebook experts and they do this very well, but I think the vast majority of us don’t know what in the heck we’re doing.


Rob:In fact, we maybe have never even opened up Facebook ads. And so, Rick, what do we need to do to get started? Walking us through the basics.

Rick:Yeah. The very first thing that you need to do—and as copywriters, you guys get this, so it’s just basically transferring your knowledge over to doing this with Facebook—and the first thing you got to do is understand who your target audience is. Who are you serving, and what problem are you solving for them? And also, understanding the target audience from a holistic level. So, what I mean by that is, I always use the example of, like, a yogurt studio, or somebody in the yogurt niche.

So, obviously, I am probably going to be targeting women between a certain age range, right, who have an interest in yoga. Boom; that’s one target audience. But, what types of things are they also interested in? What publications are they reading? Where do they shop? You know, what type of clothing do they purchase? What types of tv show or movies do they watch, or what types of association in or whatever that they  may be interested in. So, within the yoga niche, I have, you know, women between a certain age range who have an interest in yoga. Well, maybe they also have an interest in Lulu Lemon, because they purchase clothes there. Or, Lorna Jane. Or, maybe they read the Yoga Journal magazine, or maybe they shop at Whole Foods or something like that.

That’s what I mean by thinking about it from a holistic level, so it’s kind of understanding who your exact target audience is, but then taking a step back, and thinking about it on a holistic level to think about all the different areas and opportunities that you could—not only target, but—you could speak to. That’s really, really important when it comes to Facebook ads from a targeting perspective. So, number one, really having a clear understanding of who that target audience is, and how you’re serving them. And what I mean by that is, like, alright—what problem are you solving for them? What are they looking for, and how can you uniquely help them?

So, those are the first couple of things. And then, the next thing i would say is, what does that offer look like? And when I say ‘offer’ I don’t necessarily mean that you’re selling to them. I mean, this could be just a free download, or free checklist, or maybe it’s a discount code, or free sample—whatever that is—that’s what I mean by offer. Once you understand your target audience and the challenge they have and how you’re able to help them, then you can determine what you want to create to attract them to your business. So, that’s the foundational stuff, you know: the target audience, understanding what their challenges are, and then the offer. Do you want to get into, like, setting up your ads at your point, kind of step one? Or, where do you want to take that?

Rob:We could go all kinds of places, right? Laughs.

Rick:That’s why I stopped, yeah!

Kira:Let’s go into the actual writing the copy, because we’re writing it for clients, mostly, so have you noticed any trends recently with all the ads that you see, as far as what copy is converting, like, like? Short? Stories? I mean, I know again—you see a ton of ads, and they’re diverse, but what works in general?

Rick:Well, you know I’m going to say, you just got to test. You got to test.


Rick:Everyone always wants to know, like, does long form work better, or short form? And I’m going to say “yes.” Like, you just got to test it. In general though, the longer—the bigger the commitment that you want someone to take, meaning, do you want them to show up at a webinar? Do you want them to show up at an event? What’s the level of commitment that you’re asking them to take? In general, the longer copy’s going to work better. Because they’re going to need some more information there. And also, in general, again—I’m like making air quotes like you can see me doing this right now… In general, longer copy for cold traffic, meaning people who don’t necessarily are, who the business is. But—chuckles—on the other side of that, short copy works really well too. I’d say the biggest thing to be thinking about, and again, this kind of goes back to the conversation we’re having about Insta-story videos and making sure that your ad is native to that platform, when it comes to copy and writing copy for the ads, thinking about what type of platform Facebook is, and what are people on there to do? They’re on there to share with their friends and family, and share updates and photos and videos and so forth. So, be thinking about your copy in that way.

And what I mean by that is: be conversational. Everyone always asks me like in my programs and people who listen to the podcast and stuff, it’s like—how do I do copy? How do I write Facebook ad copy? And the biggest piece of advice—and Kira, you and I have talked about this a lot—is that, what does it look for you to sit down; what would it be like if you’re sitting down with your ideal customer for coffee, and you’re just sharing with them about your offer, whatever that offer is. What does that conversation look like? And that’s what you’re ad cpy should reflect. Very conversational. Because people on Facebook are really smart, and their “ad antenna” is up at all times. And so, the more conversational you can be, the more fun you can be, while also conveying whatever it is that you’re trying to get across, that’s what works really well on Facebook. So using throwing in some emojis, or like the little explosion…


Rick:Is that an emoji? I have this conversation with Amy Porterfield all the time…

Rob:It is. I think it’s the “boom emoji”.


Rick:The “boom emoji”! Okay, cool. You know, including fun things like that in your copy—like, not overdoing it, but again, it’s because the types of posts that people put on Facebook that you want your ad copy to reflect. And again, if it doesn’t make sense to put it in, don’t force it, but think about it from a conversational standpoint, and what is that conversation look like where it’s fun and playful and getting your point across about the offer. I mean, you’re looking for make that connection with the person, and one of the best things that you can do, is you want people to read and say, “Yes, like that’s for me”, or “Ooh, I can see myself in that, and I can see what the benefit of whatever the offer is, for me. So I want to click and learn more.” So think about it from a conversational perspective. And, going back to the long and short copy, you just got to test both. You know, we’ve run—I mean, like—1,200 word ads. That’s like, a long blog post. Kira, I think one thing we did one time is we took one of your emails that you wrote for us, and it was so good that we put that into an ad.

Kira:Oh really?

Rick:Yeah! It was a long one, and it worked great! And that’s just a perfect example of like, look—as long as you are being conversational, getting the point across, talking about the offer, and how it benefits that person, test different things there. I think what we did with that one there is we posted it on our page with no image and no video, it was just the post there. And we turned that into an ad. So, it was just content, and it worked really well.

Rob: So Rick, do you have advice about using visuals to go along with the copy, and maybe even more particularly, words on the visuals or how that all comes together?

Rick: Yes. So, think about the images or the videos from a… How can we convey the offer, and what we’re saying in the copy, in a metaphorical sense. So, here’s what I mean by that. I’ll use a, like, an example—we’re actually working on this right now. So, lots of people have challenges around, “Okay my Facebook ads are running; now, what do I do? Like, what do all these stats mean? How do I make decisions on what I’m seeing in ads manager? My ads are running, and I see these stats, but I have no idea what they mean.  How do I optimize? You know, what do I kill? What do I add money too?” All this other stuff.

So I created this PDF. It’s a sixty-second Facebook ads diagnosis checklist. And so, we’re playing off the word “diagnosis”. So we’re creating images right now: one is, like, a doctor. And, he’s got his stethoscope up to a monitor, a computer monitor, with an image of like ads manager on the monitor. And so, that’s a metaphor. Like, someone can look at that, and also quickly look at the headline and go, “Oh, okay! I get what that is. I know what they’re talking about here.” And it’s in a fun, playful way so that the image is a metaphorical comparison if you will, or a reference to what we’re saying in the copy, and with the headline. Does that makes sense?


Rob:Yeah it does.

Kira:Laughs. I was just going to say, what would make that better, is if you, Rick, are dressed up as the doctor in that ad.

Rob:There you go! Laughs.

Rick:So my team told me that, and I think that’s coming next! Laughs.

Kira:Good! Perfect; great.

Rick:Yes, that is coming. You know, another one is, for that exact same diagnosis checklist, we’re doing an image of like a detective, like Sherlock Holmes-style detective, where he’s got like a magnifying glass, you know, looking up at the monitor, trying to figure out like what these stats mean. So, just thinking about it from the perspective of…like, a metaphorical… Someone can look at the image, get it’s fun, it’s playful, and they get what you’re offering there, and, what the other opportunity is more like what you’re talking about Kira. It’s like, be in the pictures, you know? Have yourself in those pictures. Again it goes back to what types of things are people sharing on Facebook—it’s more of the personal stuff.

So, you can be in those images, and I think it’d be fun to be in a lab coat, with a stethoscope and stuff like that—I think we’re going to have to do that now. But yeah. Don’t overthink the image, but you want to make sure that you’re catching their attention. And we have to remember that people are scrolling through that newsfeed feed really quickly, so the image needs to catch their attention and get them to stop scrolling, so that they want to learn more. And Rob, you’d mentioned like, do you put copy in the image there? You can, but…and you should absolutely test that…but the less you can make it look like an ad, the better. Because again, you know, people are really smart on Facebook. They’re wall is up when it comes to advertising, so the less that you can make it look like an ad, the better.

Kira:Awesome. Okay. So, we’re talking a lot about actually working on the ads for clients, and I want to talk about how to use Facebook advertising to market our own businesses. So, you know, you’ve worked with different copywriters; you know what’s happening in our space. What would you do if you were a copywriter to stand out using Facebook?

Rick:It’s a great question. And, to prepare for this conversation, I’ve been thinking a lot about this. And, this is something where… I mean you could a lot of different ways. I would definitelybe doing video. Because as a copywriter, you know, we live in this virtual world here, this, you know, online world. I want to be able to connect with that copywriter. And I want to be able to here from the, and learn more about them, and just be able to have that connection with them to even know if it’s a possibility to work with them. So, I think video is a great opportunity to do that.

Now, the next question on the—like, “what are we talking about” video. I would say, if you could be positioning yourself as the go-to copywriter, you’re doing a really good job. And I mean that by adding value. So, you’re giving people—that’s just one example off the top of my head here—you’re giving people ideas for how to write better copy themselves. Now, that might seem counter-intuitive. I want them to hire me; why do I want to help them write better copy? Because, let’s face it here. Laughs. Like I am not a good copywriter. I try it, I mean, I’m okaybut it takes me forever and it’s not something I enjoy. I would much rather hire it out. So if I see somebody—a copywriter—giving me value, like, “Here are three tips to write a better, you know, email” or something like that. That’s going to be helpful to me, and it’s also going to position them in my mind as the person who is the go-to for copywriter.

And so, who am I going to think about when, “Alright, well I want to hire somebody to hire copy.” I’m going to think of that person. So if you could be providing value to position yourself as the go-go, I think it’s a smart way to leverage Facebook. And you can do that in different ways, like I said; you can be doing that in video, you can be giving away cheat-sheets or checklists like, you know, “Top Five Things That Your Ad Copy Needs to Contain”, or email, or your landing page or sales, whatever that might be. So, be giving that content away.

And again, it’s counter-intuitive, but when it comes down to it, I think so many people would much rather hire that work out because that’s what you specialized in, and that’s what your thing is. You’re going to do waybetter job than I’m going to do. And so, again, going back to, if you’re positioning yourself, and I’m seeing that; I’m like, “Wow, that was really, really helpful, and I want to learn more about working with that person”, that’s what’s going to allow me and push me to get in touch and take the next step there.

Kira: Okay, cool. I also want to ask you about launching because, as you shared the programs that you’ve created in 2018, you’re running a lot of programs you’re launching often… What is working well, and what is not working in 2018? Because, we have a lot of copywriters who specialize in launches.

Rick: I think this is the whole “zigging when”… Or, is it “zagging when everybody’s zigging?” What is it?

Rob: It’s whatever the other ones aren’t doing, right? Chuckles.

Kira:It’s “zuggying”! Laughs.

Rick: As long as you’re zuggyingwhenever everybody else is zig-zagging. So, people, especially in the online world that we work within in this space, people know about launches and stuff like that. And they know what’s going on; they know that they’re going to get a bunch of copy they’re going to see a lot in a short amount of time. And then, you know, be offered something. If you can approach it from, just really giving good value during the launch, and make it so that when people see that value and get that value, they’re like, “Wait, I can’t imagine what the paidproduct is, or the paid service is, and the value I’m going to get there.”

Perfect example, and I’m prettysure, Kira, that you wrote this email, was a lead-up email that we used last year once people registered for the webinar I was doing for my ad manager program. And in that email, I shared, number one—what Facebook pixel helper is. It’s a Chrome extension that’s totally free. I explained what it is, and also how ad managers can use it to get business. And that was just an email leading up to the webinar. I had countless people tell me that was one of the best emails that they’ve ever gotten in a launch sequence because it was so actionable, and it made them think exactly what I just mentioned. They were like, “Wow, I got clients from this; this was totally free… I can imagine what the paidprogram is about, and what the value they say offered in that program. So if you can be thinking about it, that it’s not just, you know, sort of a “rah-rah” type of thing in the launch, it’s really providing true value in thinking from the perspective of understanding what the target audience is challenged with and what they really need and provide in that for them, and getting them really excited about whatever the launch vehicle is, whether it’s a webinar or a challenge or video series, or whatever that is.

Approaching it like that is one thing that will make you stand out from the whole zig-zag thing. The other thing, you know…and we’ve always done webinar launches. We did one video series launch, and I did not enjoy that one bit. Not going to do that again! But, you know, from a webinar perspective this is another thing that people are…. everybody’s done webinars for a long time. And so, people know when they come onto a webinar, they know they’re going to get, you know, pitched something—an offer’s going to be made to them, whatever that offer looks like. I think the more upfront and just honest with people, be transparent about what you’re going to do. Like, “Look, I’m going to be giving you x, y, and z, so that you can take a lot away from this, and go implement your business. But I’m also going to make this offer to take things to the next level, blah, blah, blah.” I would say be upfront with them, and be thinking about different ways to…

Again, I’m Just using a webinar as an example: how can a webinar look different than what everybody else is doing out there? And right now, I’m talking about the actual webinar, but in addition what I was talking about before, is what is the overall experience like, from a copy perspective in getting people excited and adding value, and so forth. So, that’s really how I’m thinking about launched very differently. The only thing that I think that I see things shifting here in 2018, is, evergreen opportunities…in addition to, orin place of, live launches. You know, we used to do evergreen with a beginner’s’ Facebook course a couple years ago.

We’re going to be bringing that back. But we’ve always done live launches. And, you know, Kira, you and I have talking about this, there’s a lot that goes into these live launches, and it’s kind of like all of nothing, right? So, what happens if you’re relying on that launch, and things don’t go well? I’m also thinking about it from the perspective of, I want to make sure that—and this is another reason why I have so many different types of offers now—I want to make sure that I am providing my audience what they need, when they need it, because they all have different needs. Some people want courses, some people coaching; you know, that sort of thing. So be thinking about it from that perspective, is how can you be providing here in 2018 whatever service or offer that you are putting out there to your target audience when they need it, and making it available to them at that time.

Rob:Okay, let’s say we figured out our audience. We know the message we want to go out with. We’ve got a launch coming up, and we’ve never been in the Facebook ad manager system at all. I know that this is an easily an eight-hour conversation, what do you do when you get in there…


Rob:…But how do I get started? What do I do so that I’m getting started on the right foot? I’m not going to mess anything up and regret, you know, that I’ve got to go do something over. Like, what are the first steps? Just get me started.

Rick:Okay, well the easiestthing that you can do is, you can simply create a post on your page with whatever offer that you are making. But be clear about what the strategy is there. So I’m like, all right look—we have an offer, we’re going to test this. And that offer could be whatever. Maybe it’s a checklist download or whatever, just a PDF download. Let’s keep it really simple. So we have that, we put the post together, and we put it on our Facebook page. And then, people who have heard me talk before, they’re going to be like, “Rick, what are you talking about? You’re talking about boosting the post.” ‘Cause I’ve been against it for a very long time, and I’m still against it for different types of reasons. But, how I’m going to talk about it right now is, this is the simplest way to get started.

So you create this post on your page, and you simply boost it, meaning you put a few dollars behind it to your Facebook fans only, and you just spend a few dollars to do that, and you test it out. Because your Facebook fans are going to be the most engaged on your content, and it’s going to be the cheapest cost that you’ll see very, very likely. And so, that’s a great way for you to test out whether that offer that you’re making and the ad that you’ve put together there is going to resonate with audiences. And so it’s kind of like your first step in like, “All right, I’m going to put this in front of my fans who should be the most engaged; let’s see how this does.” And you’ll know—you’ll have a barometer right there, and you’ll know really quickly whether that’s going to be working, and be effective and be an offer that people want or not.

So I would say that’s the very easiest way to do it. Now, we’re not even getting into like the pixel, and tracking conversations, and all that other stuff. That’s another animal of a conversation. The other strategy that I’m absolutely loving, and this is something that is nothing new honestly, but doing a Facebook Live. So, doing a Facebook Live, that gets you in front of the camera like we were talking about before to do video, and using that Facebook Live to talk about whatever that offer is. So use that Facebook Live to add value, so you’re teaching something, and then in that live video you’re pushing people to whatever that download is, or whatever they call the action that you want them to take.

That’s on your page, so that Facebook Live—number one, Facebook lovesvideo, so it’s going to get higher priority in the news feed. The second part of it is Facebook loves Facebook Live even more, because now you’re creating video with their tool on their platform. And so, that is going to help with engagement and reach in the news feed. Then, if you put a few dollars behind it, to amplify it—meaning, just you want more people to see it—Facebook really loves that now. So they loved video; they love it when you do Facebook Live; andthey love when you give them some money to ensure that that Facebook Live video is being seen by more people. That’s a great way for you to be able to test getting that offer in front of your audience there, and you can do this for very, very inexpensive; I mean, we’re talking, $10 or something like that, to get it in front of your Facebook fans.

Now, again there’s all kinds of different things that you do want to be thinking about there. For example, and probably most simply is, you want to make sure you have a landing page. If you’re going to be sending people to download something, you want to make sure that you have a landing page that, where you’re sending people. So, let’s just say we’re doing our Facebook Live, we have our link there, we have our call to action, and we’re sending people over to the landing page to download whatever the offer is. And so, that’s super, super high-level, but those are they types of things that are the easiestto get started with and to test out, you know, whether people really want what you’re offering.

Kira:All right, I have two questions. One is a selfish question for us. So we do Facebook Lives in our Facebook community…


Kira: …in our group. Should be we be doing those on our pageinstead of the group, or just rotate and do Facebook Lives in both?

Rick:So, what’s the purpose of it? Like, is it part of the group?

Kira:Yeah; value add, and also promotional.

Rick:Promotional….for what?

Kira:Launching a program.

Rick:Gotcha; okay. So you can’t share from the group out to your page, but you can share from your page, to your group.

Kira:Oooh! Okay.

Rick:So, what you can do is you can do that live video on your page and, just as you start, share it into your group. That’s going to help with engagement, and that’s going to help like the overall “health” of the add, where if you get a lot of engagement there because it’s your group, that’s going to help with reach on your page, and, you know, more people are going to see it.

Kira: Awesome; okay. And, the other question is, you know, you’ve been really great at building relationships with other thought leaders who’ve become your friends, and so my question is, why is that really important, and how can copywriters do that? I’m not saying like, how can we make friends, but how can we figure out how to turn these friendships into something that really is a value add for both parties?

Rick:I can go in different directions here. Because this is something that I was thinking about also coming into this conversation. Like how I met you, Kira, was, you came to speak at a workshop that I attended. Ashlyn…isn’t it Carter? One of your…


Rick:…people in your…. So, I met Ashlyn at Amy Porterfield’s event in December, I think it was.


Rick:Four months ago or something like that. And she came up and introduced herself, and so like, I think I’d heard of her or something like that. I don’t remember exactly, but she came up and introduced herself, and so because I met her at an event like that, that makes a connection for me. And so, you know now, I follow her on Instagram and stuff like that. You know, we do some work with Chanti, and I don’t remember how I met Chanti, that’s terrible… But, you know, it’s the power of these live events. And, whether it’s a conference or a workshop or whatever it might be, that I think is invaluable. Because me meeting you, Kira, at that workshop a couple of years ago, like, that was the start of our working together.

Kira: Yeah.

Rick:And like I said before, you really want to be able to connect with that person. And, because it’s like… Man, when you’re writing copy for someone, like it’s a very personal thing. Kira, you know more about me than most….laughs

Kira: Laughs.

Rick: …most people in this space, you know? And I’m totally cool with that. And that makes the copy that you’ve written so much better because of that. So I just think that getting out there, and… Even if it’s getting in these Facebook groups, and I don’t mean like in addition to a copywriter’s Facebook group, but you know, getting into other Facebook groups where you target audience is hanging out, and just being a resource there. This is sucha—as you guys well know—we’re all spread out here in this big internet space, but it is a very small world. And, once word gets out, everyone is always asking each other, who do you know, like, you know, always, always looking for recommendations, and I’m always very careful giving suggestions out because, what’s happened in the past is I give suggestions out, then that person gets too busy to work with me,laughs, originally.

So, word travels really quickly, and so, as soon as you start making those good connections and obviously doing good work, thenLike, I think you can blow up really, really quickly. So it’s just a matter of, I think like I said, those live connections in the conference and hanging out in Facebook groups where your target audience is, and being a source of value and adding value and being helpful there. And again, it just comes down to making those connections and positioning yourself as the go-to. And going back Kira, to what you said about how I have met other people and so forth, just as an example…like so Amy Porterfield is one of my very best friends. And I first met her when I was in the corporate world. I had clients down here in San Diego; I was living in L.A. Laughs; I just reached out to her. I was like, I just introduced myself and told her that I was going to be in the area. Like, I admired her work, all this other stuff… Would she be up for meeting for a quick coffee. And she reluctantly agreed.

Kira: Laughs.

Rick:And, you know, she said something about like twenty minutes, or something. Well, that turned into two hours. You know, obviously we’ve grown our relationship ever since, but I just think that’s what it’s about, is just reaching out, introducing yourself, you know. I didn’t have necessarily any value to add Amy at that time, other than I was just being myself, like, and I wasn’t looking for anything; I wasn’t asking for any help, or anything like that. I was just legitimately trying to establish a relationship. So, you know, I’ve had copywriters reach other, just cold, via email and say, you know, “I’d like to write something for you.” Which, I think is cool; I think it’s a good approach. I just think it’s always better if you can do it, if it comes from some sort of referral. Like, some sort of, somebody saying, “Hey, you know, I’m working with this person, I think they may be able to help you out or something like that.”

Kira: Okay. I think what ties it together is showing up, right? Showing up in person to build those intimate connections that you can’t necessary build over email.

Rob: Yeah, we’re big on relationships. I mean it’s changed out businesses; yeah I mean it created our partnership, and I just think it’s the most important thing—maybe even more important than copywriting skill itself as far as, if you want to be successful in business, you’ve got to have relationships and, whether you call it networking or “friendshipping” or whatever, relationships are the key to everything.

Rick:Yep. Exactly.

Kira: All right. So Rick, we’re out of time; where can our listeners find you if they want to look up your programs, or get in touch?

Rick:Yeah, two places: my website, which hopefully when this comes out, the new one will be up—, and then my podcast, which we do talk about copywriting on—Kira you’ve been a guest on there—is The Art of Paid Traffic. And we’re on all the platforms—iTunes, and Spotify, and iHeartRadio and Stitcher, and wherever  podcasts are listened to, The Art of Paid Traffic is there.

Rob: And it’s a good one. We recommend it, so yeah. Thank you so much Rick for sharing all the great stuff that you’ve done. We really appreciate it.

Kira: Thank you, Rick!

Rick:Yeah! No, thank you so much for having me on; I really appreciate that!


You’ve been listening to The Copywriter Club Podcastwith Kira Hug and Rob Marsh. If you like what you’ve heard, you can help us spread the word by subscribing in iTunes, and by leaving a review. For show notes, a full transcript, and links to our free Facebook community, visit We’ll see you next episode.




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