TCC Podcast #370: Beyond Copywriting with Justin Goff - The Copywriter Club
TCC Podcast #370: Beyond Copywriting with Justin Goff

Copywriter Justin Goff is the guest for the 370th episode of The Copywriter Club Podcast. He typically works 3-4 hours a day on his business, so Kira and Rob asked about that and what he does to ensure work doesn’t creep into the rest of his day. Actually we talked about a lot more than that. To hear what Justin shared, click the play button below, or scroll down for a full transcript.


Full Transcript:

Rob Marsh: Most of us have a dream of reaching that level in our business where we call all the shots. We’ve got a little bit of money saved, so we’re not dependent on the feast and famine cycle. And we’ve created a business where we only work 3-4 hours a day… when we want. As I said, for most copywriters and content creators, this is still a dream. But there are more than a handful of copywriters who have achieved this. It is do-able. And given the rewards, it’s a goal worth pursuing.

Hi, I’m Rob Marsh, one of the founders of The Copywriter Club. And on today’s episode of The Copywriter Club Podcast, my co-founder, Kira Hug, and I interviewed copywriter and entrepreneur Justin Goff. Justin is one of those copywriters who has reached that place in his business where he calls the shots. So we brought him on the show to talk about that… what he does while he’s working, what he does while he’s not working, and how he keeps it all going. If you share the dream of working a few hours a day and really taking control of your time, you’ll want to stick around for this interview.

But first, this episode of The Copywriter Club Podcast is brought to you by The Copywriter Underground. It is truly the best membership for copywriters and content writers… let me just give you an idea of what you get for $87 a month… first there’s a monthly group coaching call with Kira and me where you can get answers to your questions, advice for overcoming any business or client or writing challenge you have. There are weekly copy critiques where we give you feedback on your copy or content. There are regular training sessions on different copy techniques and business practices designed to help you get better. And we’re adding a new monthly AI tool review where we share a new AI tool or a technique or prompt you can do with AI get more done. That’s on top of the massive library of training and templates. And the community is full of copywriters ready to help you with just about anything… including sharing leads from time to time. Find out more at

And with that, let’s go to our interview with Justin.

Kira Hug:  Justin, in one of your emails, I think it was from June, maybe it was from June, you kicked off the email and you said that recently there was a thread in a certain Facebook group with people saying that you had quit copywriting or retired or that you had sold all your possessions and moved to Peru. And in this particular email, you wanted to clear the air. And so it was a really fun email where you talked a little bit about what you’re doing today in business and life. So maybe that’s a good place to start. Did you move to Peru or what are you doing now? 

Rob Marsh:  Retirement looks good on you, Justin. 

Justin Goff:  Yeah, that was funny. So I actually sent a Peru email on April Fool’s Day that I was going to move to Peru and be a shaman. So apparently some people did not catch the April Fool’s joke on that. 

Kira Hug:  They didn’t know what day it was. 

Justin Goff:  Yeah, even though it was very clearly April Fool’s. But yeah, so for the people listening that don’t know me, I used to run a copy coaching program called Copy Accelerator with Stefan Georgi. Uh, I ran that from 2019 to 2022. And then last summer, uh, Stefan and I parted ways. I sold my share of the company to him. Um, and I was kinda just trying to figure out what I wanted to do. Um, luckily I I’ve, I’ve been through this before where I’d sold a company. Cause I previously sold a company in 2017, which was my supplement company. Um, and after that one, I actually took an entire year off, which was great. Um, also, surprisingly a lot harder than you would think. You would think not having to work would be really easy, but it took me probably a good two months to actually be okay with not working. I just felt like I just kept waking up every day at seven o’clock and get on the computer and I’m like, I know I’m supposed to be here. 

Rob Marsh:  Sitting at your desk from eight to five, yeah, nothing to do. The culture is strong. 

Justin Goff:  Yeah, it was, it was actually really eyeopening. Um, so this time around I had a better idea of kind of what to expect and I took kind of, I didn’t know what, what I was actually going to do, but I was like, I’m gonna take a couple months off. Uh, I may fully retire. I may set my retire, um, after about three or four months, I kind of got bored and realized more like a, just a scaled back version of what I was doing is more what I wanted instead of like walking away completely.

So yeah, since then I’ve been really focusing on trying to figure out how can I do the things I really want to do in my business? I feel like one of the hardest things for me is cause like when I was running the coaching program, I mean, we had 200, 250 members. There’s so much stuff going on live events with 400 people. I got so far away from doing all the creative and copy and marketing stuff that I love to do. And I had to do it. a ton of like ops and processes and stuff and helping with building the team. Not just like, not my zone of genius whatsoever. I just, it’s like grunt work to me. And I like every day I’m waking up and I’m like, Oh God, like I got to do more of this process stuff. Like not, not my kind of thing at all.

So my thought around kind of the new stuff was what can I really do and stay focused on the stuff that I really love, which is really like the creativity of writing copy, uh, creating new products and then really deep mentorship, which is kind of one of my main philosophies of kind of the impact I want to have with the people that buy my products and do, I don’t know, retreats with me or clients that I work with, stuff like that. So that was kind of what I set out to do. Um, and I really just focused on, like I said, the leverage is kind of the biggest thing focusing on how can I continue to make the kind of money I may, I want to make without. working 10 or 12 hours a day and without kind of burning myself out again and doing a bunch of crap that I don’t want to do.

So for me, that was really focusing on my email list mostly. Um, so email is great because there is kind of infinite leverage in it. Like if you can make $10,000 a month with a 3000 person email list, if you grow that list to 25,000 people. You could probably make $50,000 a month or a hundred thousand dollars a month. Um, so that’s kind of been, my big focus is really growing my email list because that just simply puts more people into the trainings that I do, the courses I do, mentorship stuff that I do. All of that. So that’s been a big focus of mine and then really putting boundaries and kind of fences on my kind of work time.

We were talking about this before, like. It’s so easy as a entrepreneur to just hop back on the computer and continue to work. Anytime I have a free moment, that’s just my go-to. It’s literally just a natural habit where I’m like, oh, pop on, check my emails, or pop on and work on some copy or outline something that I’m working on. So for me, I realized in terms of actually cutting back on the hours, I had to get really serious about filling that time with other stuff. No, I, for a lot of people, that’s probably not as hard. Like if you got a spouse and three kids running around and they’re involved in multiple sports and stuff like that, like filling your time is obviously not a hard thing. Mine was actually a lot harder because I am not married. I don’t have kids. I don’t have dog running around. It’s just me. So, um, that’s been, that’s been really eyeopening to me though.

But I would say one of the, one of the big things I’ve gotten really used to is just kind of living a slower life. Um, So getting up a little later, taking more time to actually eat, uh, getting dinner, like with friends or grabbing lunch with friends, which are things like before I would always just kind of like Sean and be like, no, I don’t got time for that. Um, and yeah, just kinda, I would say just having a little slower day and then fill in that with other stuff that like yesterday I went for a walk for an hour and a half. Um, that’s something that. Previously, when like copy accelerator was running full go was just not really an option. Uh, it was kind of an option when I got everything done and when I officially closed stuff for the day at seven o’clock or whatever. But, um, yeah, so that’s kind of been my whole outlook since then. 


Rob Marsh:  So I have a feeling there’s a lot of people who are listening who are thinking, wow, great life. Wish that were me. We should probably be really clear. You’ve hustled for a decade to get where you are. Two decades. Yeah. Okay. Two decades. Yeah. Certainly I’ve had some fortuitous things happen, but I mean, you’ve worked your tail off to do it. And we did, we’ve recorded a previous podcast with you. The people should go back and listen to some of the stuff that you shared in that podcast about the company that you sold and, and, you know, how you build your list and all of that stuff. So I just want to, you know, be clear, like, you know, you, you weren’t born with a silver spoon in your mouth at all, even though things have turned out relatively well from you or for you since then. 

Justin Goff:  All right. So yeah, I started in affiliate marketing. I didn’t even really know, I didn’t even know what copywriting was. And I would say those first, I don’t know, like five years, like I was like just barely scraping by. I mean like my best year, I think I was made like 35 grand in a year. Um, so I was like living on the beans and rice diet and in a $500 a month apartment that had no light and no windows and that kind of thing. Uh, By eventually, I mean, it took me a while. Honestly, I’m always jealous of a lot of the people I mentored today who like have the, the mentorship right from the beginning and don’t go down all the stupid roads that I went down and just waste so much time. Like I did where, I mean, it took me a, probably a good. I think it took probably six, seven years before I hit six figures. Whereas I see a bunch of these people that I mentor and it’s like 18 months later after they get started, they’re making a hundred grand. I’m like, so jealous. But yeah, I definitely did not grow up with the silver spoon. I actually had no business experience either. was kind of eyeopening to me because like I come from really small town in Ohio with like 10,000 people where everyone either works at the Ford factory or people work some other blue collar job. Like my mom was a waitress. My dad worked at a factory. Um, I didn’t know anything about like money or actual like business stuff. Um, so even just getting my, my own kind of bad money beliefs out of the way was, was kind of a huge struggle for me in the beginning. 

Kira Hug:  I want to go back to before you parted ways and left Copy Accelerator. Were you just extremely burnt out? What led up to making that decision? Can you just walk us through that stage? 

Justin Goff:  Yeah, so that honestly was more just me and Stefan having very different visions for how the company was going to run. We had tried to kind of work it out over, let’s say, like six, seven months span. Um, I don’t know, it’s honestly just kind of like a relationship where you like realize like, yeah, we enjoy this, but like, it’s just not a longterm fit. Uh, cause we had kind of very different visions for how things are supposed to run. Um, so yeah, I mean, it was, it was really pretty seamless and like no blood on the floor. Like we just both kind of agreed. It probably wasn’t a great fit longterm. And. Honestly, from the time we brought up the idea of splitting to the deal being signed, it was like six days and like, that was it. Uh, so very quick compared to like most kind of buyouts and stuff that get drawn out and all kinds of back and forth. So, uh, yeah, it was very, very kind of quick, but. Yeah, there’s nothing, no juicy drama or anything to share with you. It was really just different visions and we both kind of agreed that we weren’t a good fit long-term. 

Kira Hug:   Okay. All right. Well, I guess, do you have any advice? I mean, this partly is a selfish question. Not that Rob and I are about to break up. 

Rob Marsh:  I was going to say, are you saying you want to split, Kira? Let’s do this in six days. 

Kira Hug:  Give me all the details. How did you do this? How can we break up? I guess, could you just speak to vision? And that might, again, be a selfish question, but when you are a founder or co-founder, how important that vision is and how did you stay true to it? How did you even understand your vision? Because it’s really It can be tricky to see it and articulate a vision in a business, in any business. 

Justin Goff:  Yeah. I think for us, actually it was probably less vision and more the actual process of getting to that vision that we disagreed on. So Steph and I are both really good marketers and really good copywriters. Neither of us are really a true CEO type who manages people and manages the whole… Like a coach, that’s what the CEO does, who’s meeting with all the C-level people and you’re always in meetings and you’re just steering the ship. Both of us are much more better at the marketing aspect of it. Yeah, I guess vision actually is probably the wrong word because it was probably more just process in terms of how to get there is what we actually disagreed on. 

Rob Marsh:  So I’d love to go deeper now on doing things with your time that are not work. The reason I asked about your beginnings is because I know some people are listening, probably thinking, yeah, that’s not happening for me. I’ve got kids or I’ve got too much work, whatever. And I suppose there’s probably a way to carve out 15 minutes or an hour or a couple of hours on a weekend or whatever to do this. But how have you done that? How have you kept yourself off of your laptop with all of the hours that you have in the situation that you’re in? 

Justin Goff:  Yeah. So part of it was putting more focus on things I was already doing. So I love going to the gym. It’s actually something I actually enjoy. I know a lot of people hate it. I really actually love going for 60 to 90 minutes for a while there. I kind of got off track and I was only going twice a week. Um, so that’s something now where I’m like back to four times a week, go to the gym for, I don’t know, an hour, 90 minutes, something like that. Um, so it’s like, all right, there’s a decent chunk out of my day. And one thing I do, like I do with that is. I’m not very productive in the afternoon. So sometime around this time, uh, which is like one 30 central time is when I’ll do either meetings, gym, uh, stuff like that. Uh, any other kind of calls I need to do? Um, I’ve just noticed like, if I need to do like real hardcore work, it pretty much has to be done in the morning. Uh, otherwise I just either lose focus or I’m not as kind of creative or not as fresh or something else pops up, like. Inevitably something comes up throughout the day and steals my attention. So any like stuff I need real focus on.

I write my emails in the morning. I usually do one thing that’s going to bring me more people onto my email list as well. So whether that’s setting up a JV deal with someone or tweaking something that’s on my like lead gen stuff and something that’s going to keep the flow going of people kind of coming onto my email list. Because for me, the two most important things are writing the email and then continuing to build the list. So I want to make sure I get that done first thing in the morning. And I kind of look at it as if that’s the only thing I get done for the day, it was still a good day. Um, so I always try to do that first and then, yeah, in terms of kind of filling the day with other stuff. It’s really for me, a lot of stuff that I kind of avoided, like I said, so going for a walk with a friend for like an hour and a half, like I did that last night and we ended up going to whole foods afterwards, sat there and ate dinner for, I don’t know, 40 minutes or something.

That’s very different lifestyle than when I was in the grind of running copy accelerator and didn’t really have that time. And it was just scarfing down food and 10 minutes and then moving back to my computer. Um, so yeah, like I said, kind of that just. living a little slower life is kind of what I, what I’m striving for now. I was at the beginning of this doing, honestly, I cut it back to the point where I was working probably like an hour or two a day. Now it’s probably closer to like three hours a day, sometimes four, if I’m like creating like content or working on something new, but I try to keep it pretty, pretty streamlined. Um, I don’t, I don’t feel like I really ever go over four unless it’s Unless there’s some kind of like rare occasion where something kind of has to be done and it’s urgent and whatever, like I’m launching something tomorrow and I’m not ready. But overall, I feel like I’ve done a pretty good job of peeling back the hours and really just focusing on the things that I want to do. 

Kira Hug:  Do you think looking back, there is a way for, if you were still running accelerator for you to slow down and. to do some of these things you’re doing now while running a business like that? Is it possible for some of us that maybe aren’t able to semi-retire quite yet to think differently and run through our days? Or is it just not realistic? I almost just want us all to come to terms with it’s not realistic. Just don’t try. 

Justin Goff:  I think a lot of it depends on the business model. So like the big coaching program where we’re giving feedback to a lot of people each day and running multiple calls a week and then prepping for two really big live events a year that had 400 plus people come to each of them. It doesn’t really lend itself to you being able to scale stuff back. Um, that’s kind of what I’m realizing now. Like, I probably, honestly, I made a lot of points like in between events, I had probably two or three months where things were a lot slower. But then it’s like those two months leading up to an event and then about the month after it, like we’re always kind of mayhem where I was just go, go, go and working all the time. So yeah, I think the business model is really important in that sense, because like what I’m doing now with just kind of emailing my list, creating courses, um, I’m not doing any like one-on-one stuff, really. I do do some like smaller group stuff in person, but. Other than that, that business model really lends itself better to not having to work as much. Uh, and that’s kind of like my big goal with kind of focusing on the leverage now where My email list is like 12,000 people. And I would say on average, I’m making, I don’t know, like 60 grand a month from, from that list, from products, courses, whatever I’m doing affiliate stuff. Um, if I can build that list, I don’t know, double it, triple it and continue to just kind of do what I’m doing. Uh, that’s where the kind of, I see the leverage kind of coming in and I can keep doing what I’m doing and make more money than where I’m at now. 

Rob Marsh:  So I’d love to talk specifically about what you’re doing in your business hours. We were talking at Copy Legends, you know, about some of the promos that you’ve been doing. I think I said that I love the name Pocketbook Offers. You actually have a genius, I think, for naming things. You do it really well. But, but yeah, talk about, you know, what you do with your list, how you come up with the ideas and like the impact that’s had on your business. 

Justin Goff:  Yeah. So, I mean, for me, my, my email list is really the thing where everything flows out of. So, um, I do, I write what I call personality driven emails. Um, there’s a lot of other people do kind of similar, like Ben settle has his own, we have very different styles. Ian Stanley does his own as well. Um, but very, like I said, kind of personality driven where I’m telling stories, teaching stuff. And then usually about twice a month, I’ll do two different promotions for either a product of mine or a product that’s an affiliate offer that I believe in. Um, and so I would say about half the month, I’m actually promoting something half the month. I’m not promoting anything. Um, and yeah, those emails are really, like I said, it’s kind of the lifeblood of everything. My whole goal with the emails is really to get people bonded to me and really trusting what I say. Um, I think about. I think about that really on a deep level because it’s like, it’s almost like a podcast or a radio show where you tune in every single day.

I’m a big Howard Stern fan and I listened to Howard Stern every day, every time I’m in the car. And it’s like, he hooks me because of. pretty much his personality and his vulnerability and stories he’s told over the years. Uh, a lot of the best podcasters do the exact same thing and you, you kind of tune in every single time. So I kind of look at email the same way, uh, where it’s this long game. Um, I could obviously like promote stuff and just start slamming my list with offers and make good money doing that. But that’s a very short term game. Um, that does work in certain niches. Like there’s people in the health niche that just. do what I call churn and burn. They’re just putting 500 new people on their list every day and promoting offers and just keep that going. They don’t care about the long-term. They don’t care about personality. They don’t care about building trust. It’s just sales and just rinse and repeat.

Mine is much more long-term focused because Our industry is a lot smaller too. If you’re on weight loss, there’s a never-ending amount of people that you could buy. Everybody’s trying to lose weight at one point or another. Whereas us, it’s like, how big of a list could you really get around internet marketing and copywriting and stuff like that? So I really focus on that. And then I really, really, just in the last, I would say six months, have really honed in even more just on higher quality buyers on the list. The more analysis I’ve done on my list, I realized there’s basically like 300 to 500 people that are responsible for all the money I make. I have 12, 13,000 people on my list and there’s these basically 300 super buyers that are responsible for everything. I actually don’t even need to Take my list from 12,000 to 24,000. I just need to find 300 more super buyers. Really? That’s kind of where my focus has been recently. I’m just trying to find more high quality people. And a lot of that comes from really writing content that targets those people. Because if you’re right, kind of, if I write, if I write a bunch of emails that are like low end is up the bottom of the barrel stuff. that’s going to push those people away. If I write stuff that’s higher thinking, higher level stuff, that’s going to attract more of the people I’m looking for. That’s kind of an in-depth look at what I’m doing. 

Kira Hug: Yeah, I have so many questions. First of all, I think I got kicked off your list because I’m not getting your emails. Did you kick me off? Am I not a high quality?

Rob Marsh:  You didn’t buy anything, Kira, so you’re not one of the 500. 

Justin Goff:  There’s filters on there, so if you don’t open them within a certain amount of days, it just automatically boots you. 

Kira Hug:  I failed. Oh, man. That’s a bummer because I did get the June one where you’re like, I’m not retired. Okay. Well, I’ll figure that out. But can you maybe give us some advice as an example? And you’re speaking about daily emails just to be clear. Daily emails. So Rob and I are building relationships with our list. We share the list. So Rob will take two or three emails a week. I’ll take two emails a week, same list. What would you advise we do to build that same deep relationship when you are maybe sharing a list? 

Justin Goff:  I would say the biggest thing is personal stories and tying those in with some point that you want to make. Um, so I have a lot of like, just kind of main points that I’ll try to make. Um, so let’s say a good one would be like, um, I’ll give you an example. Like when I was writing stuff in the health niche, I use this one over and over again. It was always, um, it’s never too late. So like that list is mostly 50, 60, 70 year old people. Uh, all of them kind of think their best days are behind them. Um, so I would write all these like. inspiring stories about the person who is our avatar or someone who bought our stuff that at 70 years old had one foot in the grave and now they’re running a marathon type stuff. I love doing stories like that from my own personal life to my copy list around topics that I know they’re going to relate to.

The best email that I’ve ever gotten the best response on is an email I wrote about how my mom called me a scammer. And just that subject line alone is like a great, it was like, my mom called me a scammer and like the open rate on it is amazing. Um, so I always had a lot of trouble growing up with a lot. I always hear these stories about like people’s moms being like very supportive and encouraging. And my mom was like the exact opposite. Like. basically like my biggest enemy in terms of being an entrepreneur. Um, she was like the ultimate perfectionist. So I shared this story in my email about how, when I wanted to be an entrepreneur and she basically found out I was doing stuff with affiliate marketing and she’s like from small town, Ohio, doesn’t understand, doesn’t even know how to use a computer and thinks I’m like scamming people for money, that type of thing. Um, so she called me a scammer. That’s when I was like 24 or 25 and it just like crushed me, absolutely crushed me. I was like, crying, walking around, like felt like the biggest piece of shit. And I shared that story with my email list.

And as soon as I, I actually was like very scared to press send. Cause I was like, God, this is like a very vulnerable kind of thing that I’m sharing. I don’t feel comfortable sharing it. I press send. And I remember looking back at my email account, like 15 minutes later, and there was like 40 responses already. And it was really interesting because every single one of those, the common thread was like someone in their life not believing in them as well. So it was like, Oh, I’ve been trying to start this business forever. And my husband like keeps shooting down my dreams and he doesn’t believe in me or someone else. Same thing with like, my dad said this or my mom, whatever. Everybody can kind of relate to someone in their life, not believing in them. Um, so I try to find those kinds of core tenets like that, or the, I guess, shared experiences that you can write about that the people on your list are going to resonate with. So that was an easy one to do.

I’ve written a lot about like the first sale I ever made and how, like, I remember that moment more than. I remember that moment more than the day I had like a $500,000 day. Like I remember every single little thing about the first sale I made. Cause I made it when I was in college. I was actually on Christmas break at my parents’ house. I remember sitting in the computer, we had a computer room at that time. This was like 2003 or something. Uh, and like seeing like the money coming to the PayPal account and I like just jumped up and screamed and like ran around the room. Couldn’t like, it was the first time this whole thing was like real to me. Cause up until then I was just like trying to make something work and I had no idea what I was doing. But that was the first time when things got real. I was like, Oh my God, someone like sent me actually money. This, this is insane. Um, but that’s a kind of shared experience that I’m sure anybody on your list who’s ever made a sale, whether they’re an affiliate, a copywriter, they got their own offers. You really never forget that first moment. Um, so I try to find experiences like that, that I know they’re going to relate to, uh, and try to share a lot of that stuff. 

Rob Marsh:  One of the things I’ve noticed, Justin, you’re not afraid to tell the same stories again. Not like day after day, but you know, after six or seven months or whatever, sometimes you’ll revisit some of these. And I think that’s different from the way most people think about their emails. They’re like, I couldn’t, you know, I’ve already said that, so I can’t say it again. Are you deliberate? I love the story about your girlfriend who broke up with you, by the way. I think I read that a couple of times and I’m like, such a great story. But are you deliberate in thinking that way or is it just naturally part of, this is what I’m writing today? 

Justin Goff:  I think when you have a really good story, it’s kind of dumb to not reuse it because especially if you have that good point on the end, that might be like one of your main points you really want to drive home. I think you should always kind of use it over and over. One thing I actually don’t do enough of and I need to do better at is really just honing in on like, all right, what are the, like the 10 things I really want to teach? And then just keep coming up with new stories for those things. Um, I probably honestly teach too much stuff, but yeah, getting, getting kind of clear on like, what are the things you want to be known for? Like I always use Dave Ramsey, I think is a great example of this. Like if you ask anybody who listens to Dave Ramsey, like. What are like the core tenets of what they teach? There’s like five or six things that he just hammers home over and over and over and over again. I think it’s really smart to have that kind of thing where it’s like your core principles or your core tenets of what you teach and just kind of keep hammering those home. 

Kira Hug:  If we can break it down a little bit for copywriters listening who maybe want to do something similar to what you’ve done, just making the money from the list. It seems like the shifts you’ve made, it’s writing every day. It’s focusing on one, maybe two offers per month, but not overwhelming your list with offers. It’s those stories, those relatable stories, and also figuring out your buyer, your high quality buyer and making sure the content speaks to that buyer. What else should we be thinking about? What else am I missing? 

Justin Goff:  So I would say the biggest thing, which would be your first choice before all that would be picking a niche that you’re actually passionate about and that you want to write about every single day. Um, I see so many people who do this where like the common thing in copywriting is like, Oh, if you want to make the most money, right. For health, right. For financial. And it’s like, that is true. Um, and I started writing for health. I am like kind of a health junkie. So that was kind of a pretty good fit. Like it is a hobby of mine. Like I’ll listen to. Andrew Huberman podcast and stuff just for fun. Cause I like doing that. Um, if that’s not your thing, like writing for health is going to be. Pretty boring process.

Same thing with like, when I started, I was not interested in financial at all. Um, nowadays I probably actually would be interested in it a little bit more because I’m kind of more of that mindset of investing. Whereas before it just was such an anathema to me. I didn’t want to be into it, but I would say, honestly, that’s the biggest decision because you got to look at it, as I said, playing the long game here, if you’re going to be writing about something for five to seven years, you have to find something that you actually truly enjoy. Um, like I always think of this, um, like if somebody gave me a job right now, writing copy for the women’s relationship niche, I would probably burn out on that in like two weeks. I just would have no interest to me whatsoever. It’s not how I think it’s not where my head’s at. Um, But yeah, I just wouldn’t be interested in it at all. I love what I do now. Like, cause I am like a marketing nerd and an entrepreneurship nerd. Like this is what I do. It’s what I like talking about. It’s what I like thinking about. Um, so writing every day about coming up with an offer or leveraging my time and stuff like that is really interesting to me. So yeah, I would say that would be the first big, big decision to make is finding that niche that you truly are actually passionate about. Cause if you can find that good mix of something you’re passionate about, something you’re good at and something where there’s good money to be made, if you can find that kind of Trinity, that I think is, is what you really want. 

Rob Marsh:  How do you decide on an offer, Justin? And I’m asking because I’ve noticed you’ve kind of got a pattern in the offers that you make. They tend to be in the same price points. They tend to be very focused on one idea or one result. But how do you decide something is a fit for you? You’re going to create it or you’re going to launch it or you’re going to promote it? 

Justin Goff:  So I usually take a couple of things into account. into account. One, obviously, the biggest thing is like it’s got to match what the people on my list want. So I shared this at the copy legends thing. I always run a survey to the list where I’ll have six or seven ideas for an offer. Some of them can be way different than the other ones. And I’ll just survey the list very simply with the name of each one with some information about each one. And then there’s like two buttons under it where it’s like, yeah, I’d be interested in this. No, I would not be interested in this. Uh, and that usually gives me a good idea. Like if I find one that gets like 70, 80% of the people saying, yeah, I’d be interested in that. I’ll be like, okay, so that’s interesting.

The second thing is actually something I’ve actually realized a lot lately. Um, there are certain offers that do really well to my list and I know my list would want, but I don’t really have any interest in teaching them or going into it. And I’ve noticed when an offer. really connects with me and I’m really passionate about it and I want to teach it, it comes across in my emails a lot more. People can just feel it and then the sales are always way higher every single time. That’s something I never really thought about before, but it makes a lot of sense because If I’m just promoting something because I know it’s going to make good money, you’re going to sense that one way or another. If there’s something I’m teaching that I truly believe in, and I’m like, I know this is going to really help you. And this is going to be a game changer for you. You’re going to, it’s going to come across in how I write. Um, so those are probably the two big things I focused on now. Like it has to be obviously appeal to the most amount of people on my list. Uh, especially if I’m doing like a, a lower ticket thing, like I want a huge swath of people. who want it.

If you’re doing something super high ticket, like that’s different. Like if you’re doing something that’s $10,000, you might only need six or 10 people to want it at that point. That’s a lot different, but yeah, I mean, it always, it always starts with the list and always starts with what they want. And I honestly have to learn this lesson over and over again, because there’s so many times I’m like, Oh, this is a great idea. And I’ll start creating it. And then the sales just suck. And I’m like, It’s because I didn’t survey the list and I didn’t even get any feelers out there. I can usually tell just when I put some feelers out to the list, like, Hey, I’m thinking of creating this and I’ll watch the replies. And if there’s a barrage of replies and a lot of excitement, I’m like, I know I’m onto something. I can even tell it right when I launch an offer, like after the first day, watching the replies to the emails and how people are responding. Very quickly I can just I’m like, okay This is either gonna be a hit or there’s gonna be kind of middle of the road or this is gonna be a bomb You are gonna have some bombs no matter what. I mean, I’ve been doing this for almost 20 years now and still still have bombs so they still happen.

Kira Hug:  How do you get a feel I mean I get this surveyed and you shared that with us at copy legends and we actually did send a survey with a bunch of different offer ideas to get that That feedback, it still felt like a smaller sample size. I think we had 60 people fill it out, and it was helpful, but part of me was like, is it enough data at this point? It feels like it’s too small to make a decision. But how do you even get the pulse and the feel for offers to even go on that survey? Are you just paying attention to the market constantly, just figuring out the conversations? Are you like, I know this is what you need, even though you don’t know this is what you need? 

Justin Goff:  I mean, that last part you said, I’ve had it go both ways. I’ve had it go both ways where it worked really well. And I’ve also had it where it was like, I know this is what you need. And then it just bombs. And it’s like, all right. Um, so one thing I shared this at copy legends as well that I’ve been doing lately is really talking to a lot more of the buyers on my list. So I’ve been doing a thing every Friday where I talk to two or three of the buyers on my list. I just hop on email them throughout the week. Tell them I want to talk to them. And, uh, hop on zoom and just get a feel for kind of where they’re at, what they like that I’ve done, uh, what things they’d be interested in that. I, I might be able to do. Um, so that that’s kind of given me a lot of really opened my eyes to a lot of ideas that I kind of wasn’t thinking about before.

The other thing is just kind of testing and seeing where things go. And then I’m always big on doubling down on what’s working. So like I did a offer on list building. back in January and that did amazing. It was the best offer I did to my list all year. And I was trying to think, I was like, okay, how can I teach another thing on list building? Whereas most people it’s like, okay, they move on to the next thing. It’s like, now I’ll go teach email copy or I’ll go teach long form or whatever. I know list building did really well to the list. So it’s like, how can I double down on that? So now I’m Um, I’m going through ways to do that. So it’s like, okay, maybe I can do a more in depth, like six week training where they can get more access to me at a higher price point. Maybe I could do a list building live event, uh, kind of similar thing where we do like a workshop and they get more access to me.

Three months ago, I did another list building training, just basically with a different mechanism with, uh, Ning Li, who we’re basically teaching how to do take low priced offers, which we called the pocket change offers. and how to build an email list of those. So same concept, all on list building. I know list building works to my list. How can I do it again with kind of a different mechanism on it? So that’s kind of what I look at. And then obviously the core tenets are always there, like getting more customers is always going to be kind of one of the main things that’s always going to do well. Any type of copy system I know is always going to do well to my list because I just watch the past data of what works. Like every time I promote, Stefan’s RMBC course or Tanner and Jared’s email copy course. Those are all kind of like templated copy systems. They always do well. So I’m always on the hunt for more of those from like legit experts that I could promote. Um, so really watching the data is, is probably the biggest thing for me. Like just in the last year, I’ve probably promoted 20 some offers. I’m so much smarter now than I was 12 months ago in terms of what my list wants, just from watching the data. 

Rob Marsh:  I think you might’ve had an offer on this, if I’m not mistaken, but one of the things that I think you’ve done really well is you attract buyers to your list as opposed to just anybody. And maybe you do things to push non-buyers off of your list. Will you talk a little bit about that, what you do in order to make sure that, you know, it’s not just a bunch of people who are, you want to read Justin’s daily email, but it’s actually people who want to buy things. 

Kira Hug:  That’s why I got pushed off the list. 

Rob Marsh:  Yeah, Kira didn’t buy enough. So yeah, what is the secret there? And yeah, I’m not asking for the whole course or the promotion that you did, but yeah, how do you do it in your list? 

Justin Goff:  So a couple of things I’ve found. If you’re going to do kind of lead gen, which I’ve been doing mostly, you obviously are going to get a lot more kind of freebie seekers and tire kickers when you’re doing lead gen. But if you do a higher level kind of freebie that you’re giving away, you’re going to attract much better people. So like, um, if you’re doing something on like a beginner’s guide to copywriting or how to go from scratch to 5k a month as a copywriter, you’re going to get a bunch of lower level newbie people who really don’t have any experience. A lot of them probably aren’t gonna have any money. Uh, you’re going to attract that type of person.

Whereas, I have an opt-in for basically how to put people with money onto your email list. That attracts a lot of bigger, more successful people who already have stuff going. Just the bait that you’re putting out there has a huge effect of who that puts on the list. That’s holds true whether you’re doing a lead gen kind of thing where you’re just collecting emails or if you’re doing like an actual offer. So I’m actually switching all my stuff now to having an offer just because the offer has that, that filter of you have to pull out a credit card and buy something. Um, all my previous list I’d built on offers. So they were all buyers on those lists.

If you look at the data, the people that bought on those lists, compared to the people that were, came from lead gen or just, they’re really not even comparable. The buyers are always just so much better. Um, so I’m really just kind of focused on that now. Uh, like I told you, like there’s 300 to like 500 people on my list that really make up the bulk of the revenue of my business. So I’m really focused. Like, how do I find 500 more of them or 5,000 more of them? That’s, that’s really what I’m focused on and not. How do I just build a hundred thousand person list with a bunch of people that aren’t interested in buying anything? 

Kira Hug:  Yeah. I mean, how else are you reverse engineering that? So is it, okay, we look at the 300 best buyers for the copywriter club and is it just jumping on calls with them to find out what else they want? Because you know, it’s going to attract other people like them or finding out what podcasts they listen to and speaking on those podcasts. I mean, it’s probably a combination of things, but what else could we do? 

Justin Goff:  Yeah. Um, so like one thing I do that, I mean, I think you’re kind of onto some of that. Like I try to speak at a lot of either events or in coaching groups where people have paid serious money to be in those, cause those are serious people. So even if there’s only 15 people on that call, if they all paid $5,000 to be in that group, I want to be in that group and be in front of those people. Um, so I try to do a lot of that stuff. It’s definitely more kind of manual labor. Um, but yeah, I mean, trying to find those, cause there’s only so many of those people in the niche, like our, our niche is not, like I said, it’s not the health niche. It’s not the financial niche. It’s not, there’s not just millions and millions of buyers. Like it’s a much smaller kind of niche. Um, so yeah, I’m always trying to look for places where I, like, I went and spoke at Russell Brunson’s mastermind. Um, and I know maybe like. 10 people from that opted in and got on my list. A bunch of those people have bought stuff from me. Some of them have signed up for more expensive things I’ve done. That’s a room of go-getters and people who are out to basically grow a business and make money. They’re a perfect fit for what I’m doing. Trying to really figure out where those people are and how you can write the types of things or create the type of things that will attract them. Honestly, where a lot of my thinking is now and it’s kind of shifting a lot from where it was before I was just a little more in just growth mode at all costs. Now I’m like, I would just rather have the best people. 

Rob Marsh:  In my experience, a lot of those kinds of connections come from being in the right rooms in the first place. But are you are you pitching to, you know, to appear or is it just because, hey, I met Russell or I met your Todd or I met Rob and Kira at this thing. And so now I’m speaking at this other thing. Like what what are the steps you’re going through in order to land some of those gigs? 

Justin Goff:  Also, a lot of it is just on my end, making myself available. Like I put a post on, I mean, this is going to be different for me compared to a lot of other people. Cause I have like a name and notoriety, but like I put a post on Facebook earlier this year saying like, if you want me to come teach in your group, uh, let me know. Uh, just reach out. I mean, I had like 15 different people reach out to me and they’re like, Oh, I didn’t even know you did this kind of thing. So, I mean, just little things like that, or it’s like. In my head, I was always thinking, I’m like, yeah, I would definitely come on and teach. You have this great group. And these are the type of people I want to be in front of. But like, they didn’t know I’m interested in doing that. So a lot of it is just on your end, reaching out and getting that started. Asking for the connections. Honestly, I’m not even the best person to ask about this, because I’m freaking terrible at this. Because I like just being behind the scenes and like, looking at the data and being in my room. 

Kira Hug:  I think we can relate to that a lot. Yeah. 

Justin Goff:  Yeah, just being in my own little world. So I’m definitely not the best at this at all. But yeah, I’ve just realized the more I kind of reach out and ask, I mean, the worst thing I can say is no. 

Kira Hug:  Yeah. Yeah. I think that’s a great idea, Rob. I think we should do that and put that out there that we’re willing to speak and teach in groups. It’s out there. It’s out there. Going back to leverage, what else can we do to find leverage in our businesses? Again, I’m just thinking for the two of us, we want more leverage in our business, love to get more time back, but also make more money each month. How else can we think about that beyond what you’ve already shared? 

Rob Marsh:  And I think there are a lot of people listening who, you know, they, they struggle, you know, in their businesses in the first place. So like getting to that point where leverage becomes really critical, like that is the goal for all, I would guess most of our listeners. 

Justin Goff:  Yeah, it really is. Um, I mean, I deal with this with a lot of copywriters obviously, cause it’s like, especially the copywriters who get pretty good and are doing well, it’s like they’re making 200 grand a year, 300 grand a year, they all kind of hit that ceiling somewhere around there where it’s like, I’m charging 15 grand or 20 grand on my retainers or per project. And it’s like, I can’t, I can’t get any higher. Like I can only write so much in a month and I can only charge so much. And where do I go from here? Uh, so it’s always kind of thinking about leverage in those terms. So it’s like. All right. How can I do a similar thing that I’m doing now and potentially get a piece of the sales? How could I do a similar thing that what I’m doing now and partner with someone on it so that I actually own equity in it and I’m not just writing for a 15K paycheck?

When I started my supplement company with Patriot Health, I was working a lot less than when I was writing stuff as like a freelancer. And it was because I had the leverage of, we had this company that was making sales like clockwork and doing 500 to a thousand sales a day, which was just printing money for us. And it’s like, I wrote, I don’t know, maybe two or three offers during that time. I mean, two of them did really well. And you compare that to when I was like freelancing and cranking out a new VSL or a new sales letter every single month and making way less money. The leverage was all there and just me owning the company compared to me kind of just writing for, like I said, for 10 K at a time or whatever that was.

So obviously the leverage is very different depending on like, if you’re a copywriter versus you guys owning a business, trying to figure out the leverage I’ve realized, at least from my aspect with my business, the leverage is all in the email list. Like if I’m going to set, if I’m going to sell more stuff and sell courses, uh, if I have. five times the amount of buyers on my list that I do now, that’s where all the leverage is going to come from. And so also trying to find, trying to create projects that can actually scale too. So I’ve always liked this about Ben Settle has his print newsletter. It’s like, that is a truly scalable thing. Like his work probably really does not change whether he has a hundred people buying that or 900 people buying it. It’s a truly kind of scalable thing. So that’s kind of where my mindset has shifted a lot too. It’s like, what are the things I can do? What are the things I can create that are actually scalable? Um, certain things are, certain things are not.

That’s where like a coaching program gets tough, especially if you’re doing a lot of like one-on-one stuff. Uh, there’s only so much of that you can do. And I mean, you see that too, with all the coaches who get. build it up and they’re making 10, 20 K a month. And it’s just like, they hit that same ceiling that copywriters hit, or it’s like, I can only do so much one-on-one coaching. Then they eventually have to move to group and try to figure out what the leverage is. But yeah, thinking of the leverage, I would say kind of from the beginning, like going into creating products, going into creating offers that actually give you the leverage. Um, that’s really smart to actually think about that from the beginning and not just jump into something because it’s going to make you money. 

Rob Marsh:  Yeah, as you’re talking about that, I was thinking about Copy Legends and thinking about the people that are around that table. And I think every single person who is actively writing and not just coaching has some kind of an offer that’s not related to actually writing copy. In some cases, most cases, maybe even, it’s not even related to selling things to copywriters. It’s supplements, it’s golf, they’ve got fingers in a lot of different businesses. And I think we see a lot of copywriters who are like, hey, why am I only using these skills to build a company for my clients? I can sell a lot more and And I think the smart moves tend to be, you know, outside of the marketing, you know, the information or the copywriting world primarily. 

Justin Goff:  Yeah, definitely. I would, I actually wish I was more passionate about something other than like copy and marketing, because I would, I would rather be an unknown in some other niche where I’m just kind of pulling the levers behind the scenes. Um, I would much prefer that. Um, but I truly love like copy and marketing. So this is what I’m doing. But yeah, I agree with you. There’s, I’m always shocked that there’s so many copywriters that I’ve helped to, or have asked me questions where it’s like, they they’ve hit that level where they can’t kind of increase the income anymore. They’re putting as much, they’re putting all their time into it. They’re just kind of hit that ceiling. And it’s like, they’re too scared to take this step. They’re like, I could never like running my own company. And I, I, it always. A lot of the times I always laugh and I have to give them encouragement because I’m like, you are so far ahead of where I was when I started my own offer. It’s not even funny. You’re light years ahead of where I was. I didn’t have a clue what I was doing and I decided to start one. Trying to find that leverage when you’re a copywriter. You can do like what I did where like, I’m not, I I’m not a good CEO. I’m not an ops person. I know I’m not any of that stuff. So I just partnered with someone who is good at that. Like when I did my supplement company, my partner, Alan was great at all of that. Everything I sucked at, he was good at, and his weakness was copy and marketing and offers. And that was my strength. And that was why we were able to grow that thing to like 23 million in a couple of years. Cause we were, we complimented each other really well. So. You can always find that person that if you’re really good at marketing and you’re really good at copy, you could definitely leverage that by finding that person who compliments you in that. 

Kira Hug:  I’m thinking that the market I might go into next is survivalism. I think that might be the market. I’ll start a newsletter, create my offer. That’ll be the next thing. 

Justin Goff:  That is an interesting market for sure. 

Rob Marsh:  I can’t wait. I got to know where to sign up for this. I want to be the first subscriber. 

Kira Hug:  This is going to be a podcast, everything. It’s going to be out. 

Justin Goff:  It’s a, it’s a very up and down market though. Cause it all depends on who’s the president and the politics and the way they’re blowing in the country. So it’s actually not a great, it’s kind of like financial has the same problems with it. So unless you really love survival, you probably don’t want to be in it. 

I mean, it’s looking up over the next decade. I think, I think it’s going to trend upwards. 

Rob Marsh:  I look at a copywriter like Perry Belcher who is in that market. He’s got three or four companies in that market. The only way I can make that work is with a partner who can handle all of the inventory. I don’t want to have to be in the warehouse counting knives or compasses. Yeah, that’s, but, but, I mean, like you said earlier, Justin, you know, financial and health are not the only profitable markets. If you, if you can love the thing you’re writing about and, and be passionate about it, find, you know, connect to the right clients. Almost every niche can be a million dollar niche. Not, there might be a couple of exceptions, but they’re pretty far and few between. 

Justin Goff:  Yeah, I agree with that. I mean, yeah, there are some, I’m a, I always love hearing about people who are in these niches that I’ve never even like heard of, or they’re like very small. Um, speaking of like survival and there’s a guy on my list, uh, Caleb who. Operates in the gun niche, but it’s not even like the gun niche. He literally teaches people how to build their own guns from like, they order parts. And I remember he first told me about it. I’m like, think I was like, Man, you’re like wasting your time. That’s gotta be like the smallest niche there is like who the hell wants to build their own gun. And then he told me at a 200,000 person list and I was like, Oh my God, they’re like all buyers. And I was like, Oh my God. I was like, that’s crazy. But once he kind of explained it to me, it made sense. Um, but I was like, there’s a lot of like really small, I mean, there’s small niches with like cooking and cooking is not a small niches. It’s definitely a big niche, but there’s all those little ones that don’t get talked about. Um, that, I mean, yeah, if you’re passionate about those, there’s not a lot of competition in them either. Like they’re not like weight loss and they’re not like financial where there’s all the big players. Like you’re kind of competing against a lot of mom and pops. 

Kira Hug:  Yeah, I like that. All right. Um, I know we’re almost at time. I have a couple more questions. Can you go over time or do you need to wrap right now? 

Justin Goff:  Yeah, I could go for probably another 10 minutes. 

Kira Hug:  I have, like, a couple more. OK. Next question is about industry changes. So we’ve seen a lot of shifts over the last year with chat GBG and just market shifts in the copywriting space, especially. I’m just curious to hear kind of your take on it. Like, where do you see the opportunity? Any changes that are worth noting that you’re like, pay attention to this? Kind of a big deal. 

Justin Goff:  Yeah, I was, I’d be curious to hear your guys’ thoughts on this too. I’ve seen, I would say over this year, um, what I would call the middle class of copywriting is struggling more than they were in the past couple of years. Um, not seeing as much with the higher end copywriters. Um, but I would say that middle class who tends to pick up smaller jobs and then they’ll supplement with jobs from. Upwork and stuff like that, or who had a lot of kind of e-com type stuff. I think the combination of chat, GBT and inflation is not been kind to them. Um, I’ve definitely noticed a lot more resistance, I would say, and stuff I’ve offered and way more people asking for payment plans than before, even when I’m offering like $197 course, people asking for payment plans. Like I would say like a year ago, that wasn’t happening as much. Um, so I think there is definitely a lot of change going on in the copy market. Um, the, yeah, the chat GBT, I think is definitely the hardcore kind of direct response people who make great money and understand the value of it are not substituting chat GBT for the copy that they do. But I think a lot of the people who were, had pretty mediocre or low end copy before are probably getting pretty similar results. popping stuff into the chat, GPT. 

Rob Marsh:  I agree. There was a study done by Boston Consulting Group. I don’t know if you saw it, where they provided all of their consultants with chat GPT. Obviously, it increased a lot of the results. The interesting thing to me was the breakdown of who it helped the most. And it was the bottom level, the worst consultants got the biggest bang. Sort of that middle ground consultant that was already pretty good. They also got a lift, but it was like half of the lift that the bad consultants got. Now, it’s probably not fair to take that all the way across to copywriting. But I do think that we’ve seen some similar results where copywriters who were actually pretty bad or not good enough to write consistently, they can use GPT to get to that middle class point. So it’s created additional competition for those copywriters who are already there. Chat GPT is more of an equalizer, I think, and other AI tools. It’s not just GPT, but it’s an equalizer that’s lifted the bottom. I think the top’s been okay, and the top may stay okay for a while. But yeah, like you said, the middle class, the bottom, it’s really turned things around a little bit. 

Justin Goff:  Yeah, that’s what I was saying. 

Kira Hug:  My last question is just, you’ve made a lot of changes lifestyle-wise over the last year. Why have you been able to stick to it? You mentioned that you’ve burnt out before and a lot of maybe bad habits that many of us have. What helped you stick to these maybe healthier lifestyle changes? 

Justin Goff:  That’s a great question. I think a lot of it, like I said, goes back to the business model where what I’m doing now doesn’t, it doesn’t have the opportunity to really pull me in a bunch of different directions. Whereas a lot of the stuff I was doing before with the coaching program and individual client stuff, it’s like, you’re always at the mercy of a lot of other people. Um, whereas kind of what I’m doing now, it’s, it’s me writing an email. It’s me creating courses. It’s me doing a lot of things on my own terms. Uh, so there’s not a lot of, like I said, a lot of people or things that could pull me in another direction. Uh, I’m sure I’ll definitely fall back into old ways at some point. It always does happen. Um, but I definitely have been better about having just better guardrails around my time and more set on like, okay, I’m going to work from. 8 AM till noon, I’ll take calls and stuff in the afternoon if I have to do any of that stuff. Um, and then I’m gonna do, I’m gonna go to the gym and then I’m gonna go for a walk with my buddy Joe, and then I’m going to do this. I’ve been a little more structured. I’m not a super structured person. Like if I had a whole calendar full of stuff to do every single day, I would go crazy. That’s definitely not, not who I am. But, um, yeah, having, having those guardrails and then honestly, yeah, I think going back to what I said, Not having a business that has the opportunity to pull me away from that is probably the biggest thing. That’s tough to escape when you’re working with clients and other people who have demands on your time. 

Rob Marsh:  Fair enough. My last question for you, Justin, since you don’t have copy accelerator, you’re not doing the big events anymore. Do you still pull out the blue suit? Do you still show up in that fancy suit and tie? 

Kira Hug:  Where’s the blue suit? 

Justin Goff:  Sadly, I was about 10 pounds lighter when I got that suit. Not even just, not that I got fat, my shoulder from working out, my shoulders got bigger. So like the shoulders are the one thing in the suit you can’t fix. Like once the shoulders don’t fit, it’s so yeah, I have like a $3,500 custom made suit that does not fit me just collecting dust in my closet right now. 

Rob Marsh:  So any slightly skinnier than Justin copywriters out there that might make an offer. There’s a pocket, a pocket change offer on a suit ready to go. 

Justin Goff:  Yeah, free suit waiting for you in my closet. Yeah, so it’s just hanging there. 

Rob Marsh:  Well, thanks, Justin, for spending some time with us, hanging out. I think we actually mentioned the blue suit in the last episode, so people can go back and listen to that. But yeah, thanks just for being open about your business, how you’re making money these days, you know, how you look at it all. It’s fascinating. You’re one of the copywriters that I follow pretty religiously. So appreciate your time. 

Kira Hug:  Yeah, I’m going to follow religiously once I get back on the list. 

Rob Marsh:  Gotta buy something, Kira. 

Kira Hug:  I’m gonna buy something just to stay on the list. 

Rob Marsh:  That’s the end of our interview with Justin Goff. I just want to add just a couple of thoughts to our conversation to give you just a little bit more to think about as you apply these ideas in your own business.

We talked a lot about leverage. Leverage, of course, there’s that famous story of Archimedes, who said that if you gave him a lever big enough and a place to put it, you can move the world. Levers are all about amplifying your effort. You’re doing the same amount of work, but because you’ve got this lever, this long pole, It actually amplifies that effort and makes it easier to move big things. So when you think about how you apply that to your business. You could create offers where you, instead of working one-on-one with clients, now you’re talking to many potential customers.

Obviously, you’re not working with them one-on-one in the same way, but you’re offering them something that works for them. And we mentioned a few specific examples in this interview. Obviously, health supplements is one place where a lot of copywriters naturally gravitate to. We’ve seen copywriters in the dating space where they’ve realized, Hey, I’ve got this, this skill set. I can just create my own products for this niche and use my copywriting skills to promote them and sell them. And it’s information that they’re selling. So you don’t need a warehouse. You don’t need an expert on formulation, but you can create this product, uh, you know, in the dating space. We’ve seen a copywriter that we interviewed on the podcast. Uh, a little while ago, I didn’t pull up the number, but Adam Bensman, uh, has created this amazing business for himself, just creating a weekly video or bi-weekly video on YouTube in the roofing industry. And he sells templates, uh, different products to roofers. Um, you know, I mean, They’re not even online most of the time, right? So, and he’s created a six-figure business doing that. The trick here for a lot of us really is focusing on that niche. We become experts in niches as copywriters, and that’s really where the opportunity is. We see a lot of copywriters who try to sell copywriting templates and tools to other copywriters. And coming here, I mean, we’re the Copywriter Club, right? We talk to copywriters. We sell those kinds of things. And I’ll tell you, there is a lot of competition in that space. to really make this work. If you can identify a niche and Justin mentioned as we were talking that, you know, he loves seeing these little niches where people are carving out businesses, but if you can identify a niche, it’s maybe outside of the marketing space, but it’s people who need marketing tools, marketing advice and templates and things like that. You can create a really nice business for yourself. Lots to think about there.

We also talked a bit, a little bit about mentors. Uh, and I just want to point you to an episode of the podcast where we interviewed Paris Lampropoulos and he talked about all of his mentors and what he learned from them. Obviously, Kira and I have talked about our mentors on the podcast several different times. There are really two different kinds of mentors. There are mentors who don’t know you. You’re on their email lists and following everything that they do. You read their books. You listen to their podcasts. You might even go to their events, but they don’t really know you because you’re not interacting with them. A lot of you who listen to this podcast may feel that way about what we share on the podcast. And then there’s the mentors who do know you. And this is where the magic happens. When you join their programs, or you jump on their coaching calls, or you send them an email and start a conversation with them so they get to know you, you go to their events, you interact with them in some way. And mentors who know you are able to make connections for you. They’re able to direct information to you that you need. It’s just a different level of mentorship. Mentors really choose you. I mean, the mentors that you don’t know, you choose them. You’re joining their email list or you’re picking up their podcasts, but they don’t really know that they’re helping you. They’re just putting that information out there. Mentors really do choose you. And when you jump into their programs, they can then focus their time and their efforts in helping you. grow. And if you stand out in some way, when you’re in those programs, by reaching out, by asking questions, you know, by sharing examples or, or, you know, allowing them to critique your copy, whatever that is, they’re able to help you in a different way. And that’s why Kira and I have joined Mastermind programs. It’s why, you know, we go to events, because we want to learn, we want to meet those mentors and get to know them. And if you’re listening to this, I encourage you don’t just be the person who consumes emails or books or podcasts, but join the program, jump on a coaching call, you know, go to an event, introduce yourself to the people who could then become your mentors as they get to know you.

Justin also mentioned, I love this idea. This is my big takeaway, that you do one thing every day to grow your list. This is a little bit like something we teach in the Copywriter Accelerator. There’s a framework that we teach for making sure that you make progress on your business every single day. It’s called four things. And one of the things that you do is you schedule time to work on one thing in your business, not for clients, not for any customers, but you’re doing something to build your business. So maybe you’re working on your website, or maybe you’re working on a new package, or maybe you’re putting together a daily email or something like that. You’re doing one thing every single day to grow your business. Justin’s business is his email list. And so doing one thing every day to grow his list is that same idea. And this is, I think, something that all of us need to adopt. We need to be doing things every single day to grow our business in order to make sure that we aren’t fighting that feast and famine cycle three or four months down the road. It helps us to attract clients or whatever the thing is that you’re working on. So do one thing every day to grow your list.

And if you have a list, Justin talked a little bit about having these relatable stories. His mom calling him a scammer. I mentioned the girlfriend email that I’ve seen a few times. But think about the stories that you share with your list or wherever it is that you’re sharing content. It may not be an email list. It might be on LinkedIn or Instagram or Pinterest, wherever. but what are the stories that you tell? You know, do you have an origin story that you can tell, you know, over and over in slightly different ways? Do you have failure stories that where you can talk about how you turned a failure into success? Those kinds of stories are, should be repeated because they, tell things about us and they, they attract people to us. And, you know, it can create those relationships that I was talking about earlier with mentors. Same thing goes with clients and customers. The more that you can create those connections, the better those relationships turn out to be.

And then just a quick reminder to be sure to check out our first interview with Justin. That was episode number 205, and he talks all about his origin and, uh, you’ll get to know a little bit more how Justin grew his business. We want to thank Justin for joining us to chat about his business and what he does with his time when he’s not focused on his business. The best way to connect with Justin is at his website, You’re going to have to apply to join his email list. And he did explain why you have to apply on our previous interview with him. So again, check that out.

And you know what else you should definitely check out? The Copywriter Underground. At the top of the show, I told you exactly why you need the community and the mentorship and the feedback. Go to forward slash TCU to join the best community for copywriters who want to get better. The resources there are an amazing value.

That’s the end of this episode of the Copywriter Club podcast. The intro music was composed by copywriter and songwriter Addison Rice. The outro was composed by copywriter and songwriter David Muntner. If you’ve enjoyed what you’ve heard, please visit Apple Podcasts to leave your review of the show. Don’t miss our other podcast at You can also watch that on YouTube and listen wherever you get your podcasts. We have had a couple of really good episodes of that podcast recently, so definitely check that out. Thanks for listening to this podcast, that podcast, and just for engaging with us. We really appreciate it. We will see you next week. 

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