Podcast: Play in new window | Download

Subscribe: Email | RSS

The people and stuff we mentioned on the show:

How to Find Clients Workshop Waitlist 
The Accelerator Waitlist
The Copywriter Think Tank
Kira’s website
Rob’s website
The Copywriter Club Facebook Group
The Copywriter Underground
Free month of Brain.FM

Full Transcript:

Rob Marsh:  Okay. So this is episode 300 of The Copywriter Club Podcast. And usually, we would start out with maybe some interesting teases about what our guest is going to share, but today it’s just you and me Kira, and rather than tease the amazing content of this episode. And I’m saying that slightly facetiously, I mean, maybe it will be amazing. We haven’t recorded it yet, but we’re just going to jump right into the podcast and into episode 300, this is a celebration for us.

Kira Hug:  Yeah. It’s a big celebration. I don’t think it’s fully hit me that 300 episodes is incredible. So we should really celebrate somehow. We’re not great at celebrating.

Rob Marsh:  No, this is definitely a weakness. And I would love to send every listener a 300 pin, or something like that.

Kira Hug:  That’ll be fun.

Rob Marsh:  But if you’ve been here since the very beginning, we actually would love to have a comment or hear from you, just your thoughts on the show, how it’s changed over time, the impact that it’s had in your business, just, maybe we start that conversation in the Facebook group and just let people respond. It’s gratifying to hear that people find something amusing from it or helpful from it. And maybe you also have some criticism or something, send that directly to me, not to Kira necessarily, but yeah, we, this is a big deal and most people don’t get to a hundred podcast episodes. And so hitting 300 feels like a pretty big win for us and for the people who’ve been on our show.

Kira Hug:  Yeah. And I think that it feels like it’s also been a while since you and I chatted on the show. Right? It feels like it’s been forever.

Rob Marsh:  Well, I mean, we’ve been trying to, we try to do it every 10 episodes or so, but I feel like we might have missed it last week.

Kira Hug:  We missed one. Yes. So, I mean, let’s just do a quick check-in because you and I haven’t chatted on the podcast recently. I’m just curious, Rob, how is your summer going so far? It’s mid-July, how are things for you?

Rob Marsh:  Yeah. Summer actually has been enjoyable. We had a friend come over from England, so we’ve done some traveling, a lot of like, driving through the national parks here in Utah, which are amazing. It’s surprisingly green in some of the desert areas, which is interesting because we’re supposed to be in the middle of a drought, but yeah, it’s been a really nice summer as far as personal stuff going on and having an opportunity to travel, hang out, do some stuff and yeah. Things are going pretty good. How about you? You’ve actually got more news than I do, I think.

Kira Hug:  Yes, because I move every three years. I always have news. I’m always like either arriving or departing cities. And so I am moving again. I feel like I’ve moved three times since I met you. Maybe.

Rob Marsh:  Yeah, this is I think, well you, yeah, you moved into a place in Brooklyn, you moved into a new place in Washington, DC, and now you’re moving to, as about as far north as you can get and still be in the States.

Kira Hug:  Yes, exactly. We’re trying to leave the States, but this is as far as we can go while still staying in the States. So we’re moving to Maine, we’ll be outside of Portland, near the water, near the city, really excited about this move and just having a pretty big change in many different ways. So that’s happening in a couple of weeks for me. I mean, I don’t know. I’ve been very anxious and stressed out over the last few months. Like things haven’t been as great as there’s been protesting, there’s been a lot that’s happened. I got COVID. So that was not fun either. And then I gave it to my entire family and it was definitely me. I got it at a party in New York City. I’m pretty sure. And then I gave it to my entire family, so I did not do a great job of quarantining.

And so we are actually recovering from that. I mean, of course, it was not, we’re lucky, we were vaccinated and everything, so we’re fine, but it was just this removal as we were trying to see all of our friends and family before we move, it’s just been quiet here and just mentally preparing, packing and getting ready for this big change that we’re about to face. And it’s also like, I just, my son, my baby, Homer turned one last month. And so that has been really big because I think for me hitting that one-year mark has just been a really big shift where I feel like I’ve gotten back, back to my old self. I don’t think you realize when you’re not functioning the same way and you’re not the same person, but once you get back to it, you’re like, oh, wow, that was a lot. Like, that was very intense for two years.

And like it’s less intense now and I have more freedom and you know, he’s less dependent on me and I have more support. And so I have felt that shift and it feels really good. So in that case, it just feels like anything’s possible and I’ve made it through that hard stage with a baby and pregnancy. And so I’m out of that, which has been just a nice release too.

Rob Marsh:  Yeah. I have mad respect for moms, for dads, parents, caregivers that have to take the time, especially for such young children, it’s a lot and it’s hard to get it all done. In fact, it’s impossible to get it all done. And so yeah. Lots of respect for anybody who’s going through that, or dealing with that.

Kira Hug:  Well, I think when you’re in it too, you don’t realize like, you know it’s hard, but you’re just like keeping up and you don’t realize it until you’re through it. You’re like, oh, I was just doing the motions, but you know, I wasn’t quite where I needed to be. And so it’s nice to feel like I have space to really think and like about our business and what we’re doing with The Copywriter Club. And I think in many ways I’ve just been trying to keep up. And so it’s nice to be in a position where it can be more proactive. So I’m excited about that. That feels really good.

Rob Marsh:  Yeah. Well, while we’re talking about that, like what is going on with the copywriting club? I Copywriter Club. I didn’t even say our name wrong. The Copywriter Club.

Kira Hug:  You can’t even say our name, it’s just-

Rob Marsh:  But although I think if you go to the copywritingclub.com, it will come to us as well. So-

Kira Hug:  That’s fine.

Rob Marsh:  Yeah. But yeah, what’s going on? Not personal, but business-wise, what are you working on? What are we working on?

Kira Hug:  I love how you just threw that at me.

Rob Marsh:  Of course.

Kira Hug:  Especially as I’ve taken the last week and a half off. So I’m like, I don’t know what is going on, Rob? You’ve been in the business last week. No, I think that you and I, maybe this will come up when we cover some questions from the community, but you and I have been doing some deep work together to just figure out how we’re going to grow the business. And I feel like what got us here, isn’t going to get us to the next stage. And that’s the case for any business as you grow. And so I think you and I have felt that, and we’re trying to figure out what needs to shift as we grow. What are we working towards? What is working, what’s not working? What are the roles that you and I play together? And we’re working with our mentors. I feel lucky to have coaches and mentors who can support us as we’re again, doing some foundational work to set ourselves up for the next five years, the next 10 years, whatever that looks like.

Rob Marsh:  A lot of stuff going on in the background, but really trying to figure out like, how do we make The Copywriter Club more effective for everybody who joins one of our programs? How do we make sure that they get the support that they need, the attention that they deserve and we’re having a bigger impact on their businesses.

Kira Hug:  Yeah. And so for you, what is that? What is a struggle with, as we’re in this shift? Right. Like it’s not easy. I think it’s messy, to me, it feels like the messy middle of here’s where we want to go, but we’re not quite there yet. How do we get there? And it’s just, we got to make a mess and have fun while we’re doing that. What is a struggle for you as we’re in this transitional stage?

Rob Marsh:  You know, I’m not sure how to articulate it because it feels like there’s just so much stuff that we have to wrap our arms around and get done. And we’ve got a great team of people who have been helping us just really figuring out, like, what is the goal? How do we get there? What are the next steps? You know, who’s the person that’s going to help us get to that place. It is messy and figuring all that stuff out is really difficult. And I know a lot of people show up and say, Hey I’ve got the solution. Like you can use this system or you can use this program or-

Kira Hug:  This formula.

Rob Marsh:  Yeah. A lot of people talk about EOS, which we like, right? Like there’s a lot of really good stuff in there, but no program is perfect and they all, like everything needs to be adjusted and figured out based on the team, based on the plan, based on what you want to accomplish the time that we have to work all of that stuff. And so it’s just, it’s messy. And that is the frustration.

Kira Hug:  Yeah. And that’s interesting because you and I, like we’re trying to do the right things and like we’re reading the right books. We read Rocket Fuel, all about the visionary and integrator relationship. And you and I were like, let’s do that. That sounds good. So we’re trying to figure that piece out. But then we talked to our mentor and he’s wonderful and was like, maybe you should think about this a different way. And he gave us some great advice that was spot on. And so I think it can be really confusing at times when there’s so many different strategies and ways you can address a problem and figure out the right way to deal with it and what will work best for you.

Rob Marsh:  So having said that though, Kira, what are you most excited about that’s coming up? Without maybe revealing the one big thing that we’re going to talk about here at the end?

Kira Hug:  Oh okay.

Rob Marsh:  Like, what are you most-

Kira Hug:  That’s what I’m excited about.

Rob Marsh:  … excited about what we’re doing?

Kira Hug:  You know what I, so you and I just had a podcast interview with our guest for next week, Tiffany Ingle. And it was such a fun conversation with her. Like I was sitting there, I’m sure you were too like, you and I haven’t had a podcast interview in, I don’t know, it feels like a month. It probably hasn’t been that long, but it feels like it’s been a while, and just interviewing her and sitting there with the three of us, I was so into the conversation. So excited. So inspired talking to her, tapped my interest in fantasy and playing, like getting into D&D and reading fiction. And so, number one, she was a great person to interview. But number two, I was like, oh my gosh, this is why I got into this. Like, I love our podcast. I love interviewing people. I love these conversations. This is what you and I do so well. Like how do we do more of that?

And I don’t know the answer to that. I may have some ideas, but that was one moment where I was like, yes, this is, when people talk about having fun in business. This is fun to me. So that’s one. What about you?

Rob Marsh:  Yeah. Well, I won’t reveal the other thing that we’re going to talk about either, but one of the smaller things that we’ve been working on is putting a shop in The Copywriter Club where we will be featuring a few other copywriters programs, and helping them get traction for some of the things they’re doing. We’ve talked with a couple of very smart copywriters. I’m really excited about the things that we know we’re going to feature there first, but just having this opportunity where copywriters can share their things, their courses, maybe temple packs, or various things with our audience and having a place where they can possibly make some money doing that is really exciting. We’ll see how that works as we roll it out here in a few weeks, but I’m really excited to see what that does, and the impact that it may have on other copywriters’ businesses as well. And just helping them get more visibility for the things that they’re doing.

Kira Hug:  Yeah. What comes to mind?

Rob Marsh:  Well, again, like you were saying, more podcasts, more of the same. We mentioned this a few months ago when we hit it, but like a million podcast downloads, we’re now up, like getting closing in on 1.2 million, which is just like, it just keeps going and continuing that, being able to have that impact through the podcast on people’s business is also really exciting.

Kira Hug:  Yes. And so what we, I think we’re both excited about is a new offer that we’re working on, a new product that we’re both really excited about. So we definitely want to do a quick reveal and share that. But I think even just working on this new offer with you, Rob, and I know you really have done so much work on it, has been really fun because it’s allowed me to tap into my creativity. And I realized, even though I’ve had a couple of people tell me this, but I haven’t been tapping into the more creative side of my brain. And so just being able to do this and create something from nothing and bring it to life has been so fun.

So if I’m excited about that, and I think that’s something that we at The Copywriter Club can do more of like, just create more products, see what works, see what doesn’t work, update, or like toss it to the side, if it doesn’t work. And I think we’ve focused so heavily on what we’ve created because we believe in those products that we haven’t experimented as much with new products. And I think you and I are on the same page like we’re ready to do that.

Rob Marsh:  Yep. Yep. And we’ll talk about that here in just a minute. So we do have some questions that we got asked that you, we put out on Instagram do you have any questions you want to have us answer on the podcast? We’ve got a bunch of those. We’ve got some other questions on our list. Let’s run through some of those because it may just get into some of the other stuff that we’re thinking about doing. And then we can talk about that new offer that we’re both really excited about. First question that came in from Instagram is, how much does SEO weigh in on your words? How often do you update your knowledge? And I’m going to assume that it’s a question about SEO knowledge, but an interesting question because you and I don’t talk a lot about SEO, but it is important, especially with a lot of the stuff that we do that lives on our website and attracts organic attention. So do you ever think about SEO Kira?

Kira Hug:  I think I should be asking you this question. I’m pretty sure this question was also, not for me, but no, I am not an SEO person. I am so happy that we have a platform where we can interview SEO experts. We have done that. They’re amazing. You can learn from them. I know that it’s important. So we will bring on experts, train our team to focus on SEO in our content. But no, that has never been part of my expertise ever, ever. And I’m okay with that. We cannot do all the things. This is something that I don’t specialize in. You have more of an expertise in it than I do.

Rob Marsh:  Yeah. I’ve done SEO in the past. I’m not sure that I would categorize myself as an expert, but I had a business where I had to do some SEO for. And you’re right. Like most of the time when I sit down to do the work that I do, especially like sales pages, Facebook ads, that kind of stuff, SEO does not come into it at all. I’m not trying, that stuff isn’t about organic interest. However, having said that, I do think a lot about our website and you know, where that should go in the future. What do we need to focus on topics-wise? You know, what should we be doing on our blog, those kinds of things. And so I do think about SEO from that standpoint, but I also admit, like we haven’t done a whole lot around it.

There are some internal links from our podcast to different pages, every once in a while I’ll go in and do a little bit of that, but it’s not been a focus of mine. And it is something that you and I have talked about over the last year or so it’s like should it be a focus? Should there be somebody helping us with this whether it’s link building or some other tactic, but neither one of us sells our copy as an SEO-oriented copy service at all. And so from that standpoint, we really don’t think about it. As we grow the podcast though, and as we grow the website and the information that’s there, SEO will play a part in it. You know, making sure that we’re talking about topics that people are interested in and searching for will play a part, but not the way that I think a lot of people think, okay, well we need to make sure that we have the right phrase or keyword in an H2 tag, that stuff really haven’t worried about too much.

If we make it for our audience and they enjoy it, they use it, they benefit from it. That’s been enough for us so far.

Kira Hug:  Yeah. It hasn’t been part of our growth strategy, but it doesn’t mean that we don’t think it’s important and it could be really important, play an important role in your growth strategy. Or it could play an important role in how you position yourself as an expert, and how you solve problems for your clients. It just has not been part of that plan for me. But I am proud that I do still rank on the first page as the weird copywriter. I’m still showing up on that page. So something’s working there.

Rob Marsh:  Right? You own the phrase weird, which is-

Kira Hug:  Yeah, and I’m not even weird, so that’s a win.

Rob Marsh:  Some people might disagree.

Kira Hug:  Okay. Next question. Let’s see. Next question. What’s the worst piece of business advice you’ve heard in the industry?

Rob Marsh:  So this is a great question. And as I was thinking about it struck me that there’s not a really good answer for this because advice is contextual and what could be really good advice for you might be terrible advice for me based on what I want to accomplish. So for instance, the really good advice that you and I offer a lot of the time is you should probably choose a niche, but that’s not always the place where you want to start. You know, if you haven’t done very much writing yet, you want to explore and figure that out. Choosing a niche immediately is probably not great advice. You should take some time to, again, play around, explore, reach out to clients, test it out, right. So it could be really good advice in some circumstances but terrible advice in others.

However, having said that, I’m going to just go out on a limb and say, there’s a couple of things that rub me wrong when I hear them. I don’t hear this a lot from people that I respect, but every once in a while I’ll hear an internet marketer saying things like, well, you should borrow money to buy a course or to invest in a program because it’s going to pay off. And if you borrow $5,000 now you’re certainly going to get the value out of it. And I think that’s terrible advice. I think borrowing, and again, this is contextual because sometimes it is okay to borrow, people borrow to go to school. People borrow like you have to know your ability to pay off those kinds of debts, those kinds of obligations that you get into. But generally, it’s not a great idea to borrow to invest. It’s better to save up in advance in order to invest in something or to make sure that you can break down a payment plan so that you can get enough work for overtime to pay it off.

So that advice tends to rub me wrong. There’s one other piece that I’ll say, and hopefully, I’m not stealing your thunder.

Kira Hug:  No, you’re not. This is great.

Rob Marsh:  I really hate when people say follow your passion and everything’s going to work out.

Kira Hug:  That does annoy you, doesn’t it?

Rob Marsh:  Because I think passion comes from actually doing the thing and our passions change over time. And sometimes our businesses don’t change to follow how our hobbies or our passions might change. And so I tend to think, not always again, because it’s contextual, but I tend to think the advice to follow your passion, isn’t always good advice. And sometimes you just want to build a business that works for you so that you can indulge your passions, your hobbies, or whatever outside of business. So that’s some advice that I don’t like. What about you?

Kira Hug:  I think, for me when I was thinking of this question too, I was just like, if I open Instagram and I read through the post and I pick up like all of it annoys me, all of the advice annoys me because it’s just generic messaging. And like I need advice from experts who know me and know my strengths and my weaknesses and then understand the contextual problem. So I mean, this just goes into why I believe in mentorship and you and I have sought those people in our lives. But if I had to think of some advice that rubs me the wrong way, it might be something like, don’t talk about anything that’s polarizing or like don’t talk about anything that’s overly personal or like even anything political too, because I do think that sometimes it is important to talk about what you care about.

And sometimes that can be polarizing and it can be too personal and it can even, like, fall into something that’s political. And I think given the age we’re living in that stuff pops up all the time. And for me, it feels important. Like when I think about why I went into business it’s to create a change and like to do what I believe in and to help people in a way that I believe in. And so it all bleeds together. And so I know sometimes you just have to be careful and other times you have to really speak with conviction and know what’s important to you. So that feels important to me.

There’s also advice around just being everywhere. I don’t know if people actually say that, but there’s a feeling where it feels like we’re taught that you have to show up in all the places and like to keep up, especially on social media, like keep up on TikTok, keep up with Reels in the algorithm. And there is so much power in understanding that landscape, especially if you’re working with clients, and that’s part of it. There’s power in it because if you can hit it at the right time, algorithms can work for you and it could change your business. But it just drives me nuts because it feels like a never-ending cycle. And it’s just, I can’t keep up with it. It’s not how I will grow. And so that doesn’t work for me. Does that work for you? I mean-

Rob Marsh:  It’s kind of the Gary Vee approach, right?

Kira Hug:  Yes.

Rob Marsh:  Where you’ve got to be on all the time and everywhere.

Kira Hug:  Yeah.

Rob Marsh:  He’s got a team of 30 people helping him do it and it’s just not, it doesn’t work for everybody’s business. Again, it’s contextual though. It works for Gary. It works for other people trying to follow in Gary’s footsteps. Would not work for me. That’s not what I want to follow.

Kira Hug:  Yes. Okay. Next question.

Rob Marsh:  Next question. If you were starting The Copywriter Club today, what if anything, would you do differently?

Kira Hug:  Okay. I love that. I thought through this and took some notes. So I’m curious to hear your thoughts on this.

Rob Marsh:  I want to hear yours first.

Kira Hug:  I mean, I think I would probably be very clear about your role versus my role. I mean, this is something that has resurfaced recently and you and I have talked a lot about it. We’ll continue to talk about it. It’s probably a natural challenge for most partners in business. I think for the two of us, especially because we’re both creative and we’re both marketers, we’re both copywriters. And so like we both really enjoy doing a lot of the same things, which is great, but I think you and I recently have realized, and after talking again to some people who know us well, like it doesn’t quite work if we’re both joining our forces and working together on every piece of the business, it’s actually not helping us grow. And we’re almost muddling the message and the projects because we’re both trying to make it work for both of us. And so I think that’s something that we’re working on now. Maybe we could have started it earlier. I don’t know. Would that have helped? Maybe. That’s one, I’ll let you go. And then I’ll share maybe another one.

Rob Marsh:  I’m interested in hearing your others. I don’t know that I have a really good answer to this question because as I was thinking about it, I’m like, huh so much of what got us here had to happen. You know, the future is path dependent and you only get to where you are by doing what you did. And so if we did something differently it’s like, well, should we have launched two podcasts? How does that change our business today? Maybe it blows it up, right? Maybe that’s too much. Or if we had focused on a different program or launching programs every month or like those kinds of things could totally change where we are for good or for bad. And so as I was thinking through this, I’m like, well, I mean, there’s a lot of mistakes that maybe I wish we had avoided and without enumerating them, we’ve launched a few things that haven’t worked out quite as well as we want, or we haven’t been able to always show up in the ways that we want to, or we feel like we should.

And so some of that stuff that we’re really working on and trying to improve for ourselves not just starting today, but always. We’re always trying to fix that. But moving faster as well. I always feel like there’s, we could be doing something faster. We could be growing more. I’m not sure, always what we would do differently to grow faster or to move faster. But we were a little slower in the first year or two because we were both running our businesses on the side and maybe had we gone all in from the very beginning we’d be bigger, we’d be faster, we’d have accomplished more of what we wanted. And so maybe that’s something that I would think about doing a little bit differently.

Kira Hug:  Yeah. And I agree. I mean, I’m answering this question because we were sent this question. I feel like we should answer it. But I don’t, yeah. I mean, there’s not a lot I would change. There are mistakes that we’ve made that we learn from, there are wins that we learn from and overall like, you’re right. This has all gotten us here. And so I’m okay with it. I was also going to mention a lack of boundaries. I think this is something that I’ve struggled with. I thought I had boundaries and I do have some, but I think you and I have had this open-door policy from the beginning. And that’s what The Copywriter Club is all about. Like, we love our people. Like we love everyone.

And so the doors are all always open. And I think that’s just become really hard as, I don’t know, life has gotten more overwhelming and it’s not sustainable. And so I think you can have a door open, but not have a hundred doors open and still bring that into the business. And so I think I’m trying to find out how to rethink boundaries. And I thought I solved that problem. But then like recently I’m like, no, you really haven’t. Maybe you should work on that. I don’t know if you feel that same way with like, if… I don’t know.

Rob Marsh:  Well, it’s a struggle because you know, if somebody reaches out on Facebook Messenger and they’re like, Hey, I’m doing this thing in my business can you help? Or what? Like, I want to be able to give them ideas I want to, and I don’t always want it to be well, join the underground because you know, it’s not always about making money. Right. I want to help people. That’s what the whole podcast is even about, but it’s hard to shut that down and say, wait, I don’t have time for that kind of interaction because I’m working on these other things. And so striking a balance there is really difficult. And yeah, I’m not ready to say no to everything, but you have to say no to some things in order to get other things done.

Kira Hug:  Yes. And so, yeah, that is something that we’re working on as well. And then I was also just going to say, like, I feel like at times maybe we grew too fast, like you said, maybe it was too slow. I think there are times. I mean, that’s just part of the cycle, sometimes it feels too fast in the sense that just like growing and hiring many people or like launching several different signature programs that are really intensive as far as the delivery. And so that can also show up.

But then alternatively you’re right. Like sometimes it feels too slow and it’s like, no, we should be putting more offers out there and we should be going faster. So I think mostly it’s like being okay with where you are. I mean, again, even what I was saying about the past two years like there was a year where I was, nine months where I was pregnant and did not feel well. And like I was just trying to keep up and not let you down and like not let our people down. And then there was like last year that I didn’t think was as intensive. I mean, but it was, and so maybe that slowed things down, like maybe I was slowing things down, but that’s just part of life. I wouldn’t not have my baby. So-

Rob Marsh:  Yeah, what’s the trade-off there.

Kira Hug:  Right. So like I’m okay with it because that’s part of life and I’m not going to say there are seasons to business because that’s overused, but there really are. And that’s okay. So who has been your favorite podcast guest and why? If you want to add why.

Rob Marsh:  Well, I saw this question, it’s another one that just feels impossible to answer. I mean, we have 300 episodes, and choosing one or two people from that, it just feels impossible. I mean, so many, so many smart people. People that we’ve had back for additional conversations. Right. So I think two of the ones that I mentioned the most and not necessarily because they’re always my favorite necessarily, but because they’re so helpful, I love the Seth Godin episode just because of the way we’re thinking about art and being freelancers and what you deliver. Like his advice is always so good. Another one that I refer to a lot, and if you haven’t heard that episode, you can go listen, we published it between episodes, number 114 and 115, it doesn’t have a number itself, but it was November of 2018. So-

Kira Hug:  Is that 2018? Wow.

Rob Marsh:  Yeah. Can you believe that was, feels like a long time ago.

Kira Hug:  We need to talk to Seth again, he just launched a new book. We should interview him again.

Rob Marsh:  Bring him back, we’ll bring him back. And then the other one that we talk about a lot, a lot is Tanya Geisler’s episode about imposter complex. And I don’t want to belabor that because I think we mentioned that almost all the time when people ask, but that’s episode 47. And it really is about why so many of us feel like imposters and how to overcome that and some strategies for doing that. So we offer those a lot. But then beyond that, I was thinking there’s some real hidden gems that we don’t mention a lot. I saw one of them actually we mentioned, I think last week on the podcast and it’s like Mike Saul’s episode about sales, sales copy. And I just, like, as that, I got reminded of that. I’m like, man, that was such a good episode. And it’s not one that comes up all the time.

Another one was when we talked to Jason Rutkowski, who doesn’t even write copy anymore, he’s moved onto something else, but talking about mastery and his process for getting better at things like guarantees and headlines and you know, how he would keep these files of ideas. I love that episode. And one that I’ve gone back, and on the same topic, Eddie Biroun’s episode, talking about the same thing, like how do you master copy? And he’s gone from our accelerator program to being this amazing brand strategist copywriter, working with Chris O. Speaking of which Chris O’s episode is really good. John, the interview with John Mulry is fantastic. So there’s lots of really good episodes, guests that we’ve had. And I haven’t even mentioned any of the people that we’ve had come back several times, Linda Perry and Justin Blackman. And I mean, so many people that have come on a couple of times just to talk and share about their business. So that’s a really long way of saying, I don’t have a favorite. I like them all. I like all, but maybe three.

Kira Hug:  You don’t have a favorite. They are all favorites.

Rob Marsh:  Yeah. How about you? Do you have a favorite? Do you have a couple that you-

Kira Hug:  No. I mean-

Rob Marsh:  … like to listen to.

Kira Hug:  I feel the same way. It’s like, again, we had this interview before we recorded this and it was so inspiring and I was just reminded of why I love podcasting and I feel like I have a front-row seat to this teacher and this expert, every time we sit down with someone and I’m not just inspired, but like I asked the questions, I would ask them if I was sitting in front of them and having a private conversation, most of the time. And so I’m taking away nuggets, like book recommendations, lifestyle changes, and I’m taking it for me, selfishly and actually trying to make a lot of those changes in my life.

So, I mean, this is how I feel like I’ve grown as a person and as a business owner, it’s through the podcast. So, I mean, that’s a long way of saying I really enjoy the conversations and that they’re all different. And I think you and I try to make them different. We don’t want to talk about the same topic and you know, for a little while, maybe it was before we shifted the format. When did we do that episode 200?

Rob Marsh:  A hundred episodes ago.

Kira Hug:  Wow.

Rob Marsh:  200. Yeah.

Kira Hug:  That’s crazy. Okay.

Rob Marsh:  Yeah. So two years ago.

Kira Hug:  So before that, I was starting to feel a little bored with the podcast. Like it wasn’t bad, but it was just like, I don’t know, something felt off. And then we changed the format and since then I feel motivated and inspired by it again. And so I think part of it is just knowing when you need to shift things so that you always feel that energy. Okay. I am going to answer the question though. I still go back to Seth Godin. Yes, of course. Glen Washington. I’ve mentioned that before.

Rob Marsh:  Ken you were going to say that.

Kira Hug:  You knew I was going to mention it.

Rob Marsh:  Yeah.

Kira Hug:  Interviewing Glen Washington felt like it was just such a big deal for me because I’m such a fan and that was a big moment. And then my memory is that of a fly. So like I can’t go back to the early episodes, but more recently, Tyler J. McCall, I enjoyed that because he talked about some heavy, heavy topics, life-changing stuff about shutting down his business and you know, he’s just, he was so open and vulnerable and talked about the hard stuff with our community on the podcast. And I just found that really just refreshing.

And then Dan Clark, loves talking about Brain.fm, because again, that’s an example of like, we don’t just interview people. Then we learn, and then I start using the app, even though I wouldn’t have used it otherwise, but talking to him, I was inspired to use it. And then it’s helped me become better creative. And then I wrote down Rachel Ngom too, because that was an interview-

Rob Marsh:  I almost wrote down Rachel’s name as I was thinking about it.

Kira Hug:  Yeah. Like that’s an interview. I enjoy those interviews too, where I really don’t know the person well. Those are almost more fun, although whatever, they’re all fun, but it’s fun when you don’t know the person well, and you just are blown away by someone you’re like, I know that you have a great pitch that you’re credible. That you’re going to be a great interview, but like, I don’t know where this is going to go. And she just blew me away with where we were able to take that interview. And so again, that’s just why I love what we do. Last one I’ll mention is the recent interview with Laura Belgray. I believe that was the second time she came on. And so just being able to sit down with her after we had talked to her early on the podcast, so a couple-

Rob Marsh:  Yeah, like really early, like the first 10 episodes or so. Yeah.

Kira Hug:  And just to sit down with her and reflect on where she’s taken her business and how much has changed for her. And you know, Laura’s always very open about what’s working and what’s not working. And so I took a lot away from what she said. She just said to email your list more frequently. You want to make more money in your business, show up more frequently in the inbox. And it’s so simple, but sometimes you just need someone to say it to you directly. And I just enjoyed that interview as well. That’s it for what I wrote down. But again, like, this is why I enjoy what we do because I love the podcast.

Rob Marsh:  Same, there are very few bad episodes. Because of some of the stuff that we’ve been working on, I’ve been going back and listening to some guests. I’m like, oh yeah, I remember they talked about this thing. I want to remember what they said and as I go back, I’m just, I love re-listing to it. There’s so much good information that even with the things that I’m doing in my business, I can still learn from all of our guests. It’s just, it’s a great resource. And hopefully, people find it as helpful as we do.

Kira Hug:  Okay. So we should do one more question because I’m looking at the time and also realizing that my babysitter’s going to leave soon. And so we need to-

Rob Marsh:  Okay. So let’s, we’ll answer some of the other questions that we got just like in Reels or something else in social media, we’ll ask one more and that is, what-

Kira Hug:  Wait, Rob, don’t promise something we’re not going to do.

Rob Marsh:  I’m going to do it. I’ll do it. I’m going to do it. I’m going to create some answers whether you do it or not. So what was the tipping point for the podcast? The thing that made you know, that you’d made your name.

Kira Hug:  Okay. That was-

Rob Marsh:  Not the one you were expecting?

Kira Hug:  No, but that’s okay. I mean, I think when, probably the first event, and the event, since we’ve had five of them now. Every time we have one, it’s like you realize that it’s become something bigger than just Kira and Rob. The Copywriter Club is a separate brand. It’s a separate entity that has meaning for many people outside of us and that we can guide it, but that it’s significant to other people. And I think that’s the power of creating a brand beyond your personal brand. And so I can feel it when I’m at the events and the way people talk about it and the way that it feels when we’re connecting in person. And that’s how I know that it’s more than just like Kira and Rob showing up and being a guru of some sort. It’s not that.

Rob Marsh:  Yeah. I wrote that down as well. I think that first event, I was like, okay, this is something, there’s something amazing in this community and with the people who are here and there’s something going on and it’s special. Two other things that kind of stand out to me when we interviewed Eman Zabi on the podcast, she said that she got into copywriting because of the podcast because she was listening to it. And like not very many things bring tears to my eyes. So I’m not going to say I brought tears to my eyes-

Kira Hug:  Are you crying now?

Rob Marsh:  Yeah, there you go. But I just remember thinking, oh my gosh, that’s such an amazing impact. And clearly, and it’s not you and me necessarily. It’s the guests that show up every week and share their businesses and their ideas and the strategies that they’d use to grow and how helpful that is to other people. And since Eman said that we’ve had several people on the podcast say something very similar. And just knowing that the podcast has had that impact, that’s what reminds me that, okay, there’s something like we said special about this community.

And then related to that, just when we hit a million downloads to the podcast, I’m like, this is crazy. It’s amazing. You know, so few podcasts ever reach that level. And the fact that we’ve had people show up and listen week after week to get to that point. I would’ve never dreamed that we did a million downloads when we first kicked it off. It wasn’t necessarily a passion project when we kicked it off. But my goal wasn’t that big. And now the goal would be to get significantly bigger than that. I’m hoping for 5 million downloads.

Kira Hug:  Why not 10 million?

Rob Marsh:  Yeah.

Kira Hug:  Why not a hundred million. Let’s just go really big. Okay. Well, let’s just squeeze in one quick question. Like what I think it was just, what’s the future? What’s happening in the future next five, 10 years. So we can just touch on that real quick and then talk about what’s happening next for us.

Rob Marsh:  Yeah. So this is, I never felt like I have a good answer to this question either because there’s so many opportunities. We’ve talked about, should The Copywriter Club become a media company and launch a new podcast, not necessarily with us, but maybe with other copywriters or other marketers talking about something related and actually having it be a Copywriter Club umbrella, a production. That opportunity’s out there. And maybe somebody listening to this is going to hit us up and say, Hey, I want to be that podcast or whatever. Same thing with like a book or two, not just books written by you or me, but there are others in this community that have things to share. And so using our brand to help amplify some of that, I think there’s an opportunity there, to be a media company.

I think that was an idea that you initially expressed and I’ve, the more I think about it, the more I like it. We’ve also talked about possibly adding an agency at some point, and having the copywriters who are in our groups available to work on projects and maybe it goes there. But my hope for The Copywriter Club in the future is that we are able to inspire more copywriters to do better work and help them grow their businesses. And if we’re doing that, I think everything’s going to work out in the future. Do you see anything different from that?

Kira Hug:  Yeah, the media company I’m super pumped about. And I think we just need to get the current business dialed in before we can make that shift, but I don’t think it’s far away. So if you are listening and you are inspired to create a podcast that would speak to other copywriters in some way, like reach out to us because we’re already thinking about that. I’m less excited about the agency, I’m not against it. I think it could make a lot of sense for the company. I think that might be something that I am not involved in. And then I’m more excited about it.

Rob Marsh:  Yeah. Maybe not.

Kira Hug:  Like I would be happy to be on the sales end of that, like selling clients and getting them in the door. And then we have this fantastic team driving that. I’m excited about thinking more about other tools we could create with partners, tools that help make copywriters’ jobs, lives easier. I think that’s cool. I think there’s a lot of training out there. I don’t think training needs to disappear, but I think what’s needed next is just tools and parts that we could plug into our businesses to make it easier. I’m also really excited, and we’ve talked about this before, but thinking about behavior design and how we can focus on that to make our jobs easier and to do great work, and to enjoy our work more. And so thinking of ways we could pull that into the products we’re creating and help copywriters shift their behavior so that they can accomplish their goals rather than struggle and wonder why things aren’t happening for them.

Rob Marsh:  I like that. I think if we’re able to accomplish that stuff, The Copywriter Club has a bright future. So we’ll see. We’ll see where we are in a year or five years or 10 years from now.

Kira Hug:  Yes. So let’s talk about it, we just spoke briefly about this new product we’re creating. Why don’t Rob, you talk about what it is and why we’re creating it?

Rob Marsh:  Yeah. So the number one thing, discussion point question that we get asked, trouble that people have, the problem they want to solve that we hear about whether it’s on Twitter or in the Facebook group or on LinkedIn, is that people struggle to find clients. And the work that we do in the copywriter accelerator is all about laying the foundation for our strong business, but still, there’s this opportunity to teach people how to find, not just any client, but their ideal clients. Maybe even the dream client, the one person that they really want to work with. And so we are putting together a couple of workshops. It’s a set of workshops that go together where we’re going to talk about the process for actually finding and landing those ideal clients. And it’s not just, Hey, get out there and pitch or whatever, we’re going to go really deep on all the stuff that happens, has to happen before you start to pitch. All the stuff that you need to do before.

So that when you pitch, when you identify people or, and it’s not just about pitching, it’s about connecting and you know, creating relationships, but so that when you do that, the clients say yes. And so we’ve been putting a lot of time into it. It’s not just workshops. You know, there are some worksheets, a workbook of sorts that will help you go through these exercises. So it’s not just you and me talking and saying, Hey, do this, do this, do this. And then you go off on your own. And there are going to be a lot of templates. So after we go through the process, we’re actually going to give you the words that you can then, it’s a template, so you’re going to want to rework it, put in your own voice, add information that’s applicable to the person that you’re pitching, but it’s going to help you take that first step and systematize it so that you’re actually finding and landing projects. So that’s what we’re working on. And we’re excited to be launching that here in just another week or so.

Kira Hug:  Yep. I don’t know how detailed we want to get with this.

Rob Marsh:  Let’s just tease a couple of things, like you’ve been talking about some of the stuff that you’re going to be sharing as we promote it. So just share a couple of things that you’ve started to write about. And I mean, it’s not free. In fact, it’s not even cheap necessarily, although there’s a payment plan to make it more affordable, but it is absolutely value packed and will work if people do the work.

Kira Hug:  Yeah. So we can share that, I mentioned behavior design, but part of how we’re putting this together in the different phases for creating your client pipeline weaves in behavior design and how you can actually start to create habits that allow you to focus and create some extra space and time to actually do what you need to do to acquire clients. And that’s usually the hardest part for many of us. It’s like, we know what to do. We do have, like, we have different strategies, we’ve listened to different podcasts. We know roughly what we need to do and we’re copywriters, so we’re good at that, but there’s a missing piece where it’s just not happening. And if it happens, it’s sporadic and it’s not happening consistently in our business and delivering clients on a regular basis, so we can actually depend on it. And so a big piece of that is focusing on how we can shift our behavior so that it becomes easy and it becomes a natural part of how we operate and how we run our day.

And it becomes something that we don’t dread. And it’s not something that depends just on feeling motivated. It’s something that becomes more systematized. And so we’re putting together this system, so that it’s really clear as far as what to do and when, and it’s not just based on strategies, it’s based on shifting your behavior so that it actually works. And so that’s what I’m excited about with this product is how we’re building it and that it’s not just like, here’s a bunch of tactics, go do it. And it’s more a step-by-step process that weaves in all the important pieces. So it’s something that you actually implement and you don’t just talk about.

Rob Marsh:  And one of the things with a program like this too, that makes it super successful is when you have ongoing support. And we have a component of it where you can be in the underground as an annual member. And we will continue to give feedback over time, whether it’s through copy critiques or just Q&A, hot seat type calls, but you have access to us for 12 months as an annual member of the underground in order to really dial it in, try different things, try different ideas, get feedback. So it’s all part of that program. And that’s why we say it’s not free. In fact, it’s not even cheap necessarily, although it’s not that expensive. One client could easily pay for the program five, six times over, but it is the information and the help that will really take you from struggling to find clients, to having a system that makes it easier. It’s not necessarily always going to be easy, but it will be easier. It’ll be more process-oriented. You’re going to be able to get it done. And if you put in the work, it will work.

Kira Hug:  So, yeah, and there are seven phases to this system. And so we’re not going to go through all the phases right now, but we are going to share how it all works, what it does, how it operates differently, and share that with you. If you’re on our list, you’ll hear all about it over the next week or so. And so make sure you are on the list. If you have any interest in creating and building your own profitable, predictable lead gen system and doing it in a way that actually works and helps shape your behavior, then this is something that definitely you can jump on our list and hear more about and find out if it’s a good fit for you.

Check the show notes, to get on the list, to find out more information about this new offer that we’re so excited about. That’s coming out like now, by the time you listen to this one thing we should note is that it clearly it’s beta and we’re putting this together. And so because it’s beta, it will be the lowest price it will ever be. And we will definitely be following up for your feedback. And it will be something that is collaborative. And we are excited about working with people who really get excited about beta products and being the first to test something.

Rob Marsh:  So we are excited about it. If you’re on our list, you’ll hear about it. If you’re in the Facebook group, the free Facebook group, you’ll hear about it, make sure you’re looking for it though. Facebook doesn’t always show everything to everybody. And who knows if the email lands in your promotions tab, instead of in your inbox, you might miss it. So just pay attention, but we’ll be sharing more details about that in the coming week.

Kira Hug:  Okay, great. And one question I was going to ask you that we didn’t talk about are what books you’re reading now. Because we usually like to talk about that. Do you have a minute to share that before we wrap, like one or two books you’re reading now?

Rob Marsh:  Yeah. So I have a couple of different books on my desktop right now. I’m going to hold up a couple because we’re on video, but this one I just got it’s Derren Brown’s Tricks of the Mind. Now Derren Brown is a magician, mind reader and in my efforts to get better at persuasion, I just was thinking there’s a lot to be learned from the world of magic and suggestions. And if you’ve ever seen any of Derren Brown’s videos on YouTube, he just does some really crazy stuff with suggestion and persuasion. So that’s one. A second book is one that one of our mentors gave us called The Proverb Effect. It’s been sitting here ready to check out, but it’s basically how do you create phrases, taglines, names that are really sticky in somebody’s mind, and that stand out.

Rob Marsh:  And then the last one that there’s a couple that I’ve had on my, they’re on my Kindle so I can’t hold them up quite the same way, but they’ve been around for a while and I just want to revisit. One’s called Bottleneck Breakthrough by Joshua Long, that was recorded or recommended by Perry Marshall a while ago. And it’s really about when you find places in your business where you get stuck, what is the next thing you do? And so that’s one that I want to revisit. One other one that I just like to revisit every once in a while is The Ultimate Sales Machine by Chet Holmes. Really good stuff in there about sales, but that’s my reading list right now. What’s on your bookshelf?

Kira Hug:  All right, I’m going to show a couple. These are a lot of ones that I’m just starting, Mary Oliver, selected poems because I just need more poetry in my life. And so far it’s been really helpful. One that I have read, because I feel like I always show books that I’m about to read, but I never actually read them. This is one, Bittersweet, that I think we’ve talked about before, but by Susan Cain, I finished that. I felt seen, I felt… I didn’t read it at first because I just was like, there’s no way she could top Quiet, but then she did. Then she did.

Rob Marsh:  That one’s on my list. I haven’t got it yet.

Kira Hug:  Oh, it’s good. I’m going to read it again. And then here’s some ones that just arrived that I’m about to read. Seth Godin, we need him back on the podcast for his Carbon Almanac. So we need to, I’m going to read it and then we’re going to pitch him and get him on the podcast. Hopefully. And then this one I heard, I don’t even know where I heard about it, but I was like, this sounds interesting, How to Blow Up a Pipeline by Andreas Malm. Again, not sure where I heard it, but it’s happening. And then this is the last one that is quite popular right now and the movie’s coming out. So I was like, I need to read it before the movie comes out, Where the Crawdads Sing, Delia Owens. And while I was at the bookstore, they were talking it up and convinced me to get that one as well. So I got a lot of reading to do.

Rob Marsh:  I am curious about the, How to Blow Up a Pipeline. Is that like blowing up an oil pipeline? Is that like the-

Kira Hug:  Yes. I mean it’s and again, I-

Rob Marsh:  It’s subversive. You’re a subversive now Kira. Yeah.

Kira Hug:  We’ll see, after I read this book, I might be. Wherever the recommendation came from. I was inspired and I was like, I just have to get this. So I’ll let you know how that one goes. But yeah, I’m really pumped by my book list. And I just need to get more time to read.

Rob Marsh:  Yeah, that’s the key.

Kira Hug:  Yep.

Rob Marsh:  Finding time to read is always the key.

Kira Hug:  Okay. So we are going to wrap this lovely conversation and celebration of the 300th episode. We are grateful to you for listening to this episode. And if you’ve listened to any of the previous episodes, we really appreciate that you give us a reason to do this and to ask these questions and learn alongside us. It’s just like we’ve said, it’s just so much fun and I’m just grateful that I get to do this.

Rob Marsh:  Yeah. We’re looking forward to the next 100 or 300 episodes of the podcast.

Kira Hug:  Maybe I’ll be moving again.

Rob Marsh:  Yeah, for sure. You’ll have moved two or three times by then, for sure.

Kira Hug:  Yes.

Rob Marsh:  So that’s the end of this episode of The Copywriter Club Podcast. The intro music was composed by copywriter and songwriter, Addison Rice. The outro music was composed by copywriter and songwriter David Muntner. And if you’ve enjoyed what you’ve heard, please visit Apple Podcasts, leave a review of the show and let us know what you think, especially what we should be doing for the next 300 episodes.

Kira Hug:  All right. See you later.

Like what you've seen so far?

There's plenty more where that came from. Sign up today and we'll send you a few copywriting resources and regular Copywriter Club updates. The only way to get them is to drop your email in the box and hit "gimme!"

Your information will *never* be shared or sold to a 3rd party.