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The people and stuff we mentioned on the show:

The Copywriter Think Tank
Copywriting Income Survey
Kira’s website
Rob’s website
Lander’s workshop 
The Copywriter Club Facebook Group
The Copywriter Underground
Sign up for Typeform
Episode 205
Episode 266

Full Transcript:

Rob Marsh:  You’ve probably heard the marketing equation 40/40/20. More than one of our guests on past episodes has mentioned it. 40/40/20 represents which parts of promotion are responsible for the sales. 40% comes from your list or your audience, making sure that you’re talking to the right people. Another 40% comes from the quality and value of your offer. And the final 20% comes from your copy, the message that you use to sell the offer to the right audience. And if you’re talking to the right people with a great offer, you’ll almost certainly succeed, even if the copy isn’t that great.

Conversely, if your offer is bad, even the best copy won’t do much to salvage the promotion. All of that is a long way to introduce our guests for this episode of The Copywriter Club Podcast. Copywriter and marketing strategist and Think Tank member Lander Sulser. Lander’s specialty is helping her clients dial in an irresistible offer that customers can’t say no to. It’s a superpower that every copywriter needs to have. So you’ll definitely want to stick around for this episode.

Kira Hug:  Before diving into the interview with Lander, this sponsor for this week’s episode is the copywriter Think Tank.

Rob Marsh:  Surprise.

Kira Hug:  Shockingly, it’s the Copywriter Think Tank. It’s a part mastermind and part coaching program, and it’s designed to help copywriters dive deeper into their businesses and explore new ideas that maybe they didn’t even think were possible. With our two new coaches, Linda Perry and Jonnie Stellar, you’ll get personalized focus on systems and mindset. In addition to strategic coaching and support from the two of us. If you’re looking to create a new offer or program, scale your income, launch a book, or maybe even a podcast, the Think Tank could be your next step to making it happen. And if you want more information, head over to copywriterthinktank.com to learn more.

Rob Marsh:  All right, let’s get to our interview with Lander Sulser.

Lander Sulser:  As a writer today, I have client’s clients, course creators in the online space that I write copy for. And then, occasionally, I’ll have students that I coach by creating an irresistible offer. And I’ll do that from my little basement office in my home. I love working from home and hearing my kids around the house. So that’s how I’m making money right now.

Rob Marsh:  So I think a lot of people hear you say, I work with high-end coaches, and think, oh, that’s awesome. I’m just starting out. How do I connect with those kinds of clients? I’m curious, Lander, how did you find your first clients and how did you ladder up to these higher-paying bigger projects in your business?

Lander Sulser:  Beautiful question. Yes. I remember feeling like how do you get there? In the beginning, truly, I would take an online course, and then I would reach out to these people I just thought were amazing. And I have a podcast and it’s called Online Success For Creatives. So one way was just to be like, “Hey, look, I think you are so cool. You’ve got a great offer here. Can I write for you?” And of course, my pricing was very different at the time, and if it was right, they’d be like, yeah, just write for me. And that was one of my clients, Amanda Horvath, who now has a multi six-figure course, and we’ve worked together multiple times. So sometimes it was just reaching out and be like, “Hey, I think we align. I think you’re really cool. Can I help you on this project? And I can take something off your plate.”

So that was how I started in the beginning. And then as their stories grew and I had a little bit underneath me of experience and people could see a bit of a portfolio starting to get together. The biggest connections were through doing a mastermind. I would say that I did a mastermind and that really helped connect me with higher-end consultants and course creators, because I don’t typically say; it’s really hard for me to leave home. I have very little children. And so I think that was the biggest push for me getting bigger clients was reaching out in the beginning and just sticking with it over time.

Kira Hug:  Okay. Yeah. And I’m glad we’re talking about this because this is a question that popped into my inbox even yesterday. It was just like, “Hey, Kira, how can we talk about how to get the high-end premium clients?” So let’s just dig deeper into this. It sounds like what’s worked is joining different programs and then reaching out to the creator of the program and then also being in the right room. So you mentioned being in the right masterminds so that you’re surrounded by the right people. Are there any other ways outside of that, that you would recommend to copywriters who are struggling to connect with the right clients?

Lander Sulser:  Yeah. I think that I mean, podcasts are a really powerful way to connect with people. Even if you’re reaching out to someone and a team member, Amy Porterfield is super busy. You’re not really going to reach Amy Porterfield through her email, but you’re going to reach people on her team that then know your name. And so that’s really powerful. And that does come back over time. I full queried it but didn’t land the client, but I did reach out to someone. She was on my podcast, she’s a seven-figure person and her team was like, “hirer Lander!”. And she went in a different direction, but you can’t overestimate the power of those small connections.

And by small, I just mean those unique connections that are maybe not in the main person, but they’re working on a team because they’re going to remember you. They might work with multiple six seven-figureure business owners. And now you’re on a new list to get connected. So that’s also a powerful way is just reaching out through your podcast or to blog and knowing the name of the team members.

Rob Marsh:  Yeah. I like that. I’d love to talk a little bit more about your podcast and how you approach that. What are you thinking about when you are thinking, okay, I want this particular guest on my show and then is it this conscious effort? I’m reaching out to them on the show. Yes, but ultimately I want to work with them someday or are you just forming relationships and trying to nurture them so that when the thing happens, it happens.

Lander Sulser:  You know, when I started the podcast, I had a story, like loss, which you guys might touch on later, but when I came into my business, we all know mindsets it’s a huge thing really. I was like, I just want to work. And these people seem really cool and they’ve got amazing online offers and I want to connect with them. And that was the whole basis. I would reach out to these amazing entrepreneurs like Tyler McCall, Casey Morris, there were lasts that really were on my podcast I really love. And I’d reach out and be like, “Hey, I’m literally a mom behind the computer, who wants to make more connections. Would you like to be on my podcast? Here’s a few of the basics of what I reach out and do.” And many of them said, yes. And then we’re on the podcast.

And we started talking about what I love to talk about, which is creating online courses. And what I loved at the time when I started the podcast was this ability that, me as a mom and educated love learning could have space and work from home doing what I love and connecting with people without having to leave at home or leave my kids. And I just thought that was so powerful. So really, in the beginning it was just reaching out to reach out to people I thought were cool. I know that sounds really general. And then I guess, started to become more strategic with it a bit. And now I like, if you listen to my podcast, now I have clients speaking on the podcast about how we work together and what they’re doing now, but that’s a more recent thing to be honest.

Kira Hug:  So how did you go from: I’m here, I just want to make connections, which is a great way to show up. And you can feel the positive energy from that and what I would want to connect with you if you reached out and said that… but how did you go from that to creating the irresistible offer? What were some of the steps in between?

Lander Sulser:  Yeah. So it’s funny, Kira. I actually reached out to your team one time and then I chickened out.

Kira Hug:  Wait, what?

Lander Sulser:  I mean, yeah, I’d reached out to your team and I was like, “Hey, is Kira available? I did your application.” And they were like, “Yeah, what do you need?” You had a great team. They were very nice. And then I just chickened out. I don’t know what happened, but mindset’s a really big thing. And so that’s just funny. But I had…  for creating the irresistible offer, I started to have clients that I would reach out to in a course, or they would reach out to me and they would be like, “Hey, I can’t figure out my offer yet, or I’m just not ready to pay $5,000 for a sale page or X amount for emails. Can you help me here?” So it became: me coaching them through creating their first profitable launch or irresistible offer and then what to do with it.

Create that irresistible offer. And then how do I launch it successfully? And so then I just created the coaching package that has been a great success for my business and how I started working with clients like Rebecca Rice, who now has the course that we started working on. She’s made like 300K in the past year and she’s on track to make a million this year with all of her online efforts. So it’s a really cool process, but I just took what my clients needed and just started coaching them through it because it didn’t fit into my copy packages.

Rob Marsh:  Okay. So that’s amazing. A $300,000 package is amazing. Can we talk about the offer? What does it take to build an offer like that?

Lander Sulser:  Right. Well, it’s a great question because we see that huge number and I think it was really fast for her and she did make six figures in the first year, but it does start with the first launch. And getting a lot of numbers down and figuring out what’s converting and what’s not. And then just adjusting a move from there. And I asked Rebecca, because she is just an action-taker. I mean, she just goes, she would just be like, “Oh, that didn’t work.” And just move to something that did.

But for her offer, we walked through making it irresistible. The naming of the course, having a very super clear promise, laying out what was in the course. And then what are the bonuses? Because that can be a sticky point for some clients and then how to market it. What is the best messaging to get this out there and how it grows to 300Ks is doing it over and over and over leaning into what’s working and walking away from what doesn’t.

Kira Hug:  I just was super distracted a minute ago when Lander, you said you pitched me to be on the podcast. And so I had to check my email and now I see your email, Lander. I see it from 2018. And then you never responded after the last email. So glad we finally connected. I’m glad we made that happen eventually. So when we’re talking about your offer, why is the naming part so important? And can we talk about how to do that better? Because I feel like that is overlooked definitely by most copywriters, we just skip past it. And there is so much value behind choosing the right name.

Lander Sulser:  Right. Yeah. I think that the audience needs to see themselves in it and be driven by it. And my first thing is always clarity. It must be clear if it is confusing at all, then we can’t use it. If it leads to something else, let’s move on and give options. So you can make a whole list of 20 different ways. You can try to use alliteration, but at the end of the day, if it isn’t clear, don’t use it. That is my biggest, if you’re naming the course don’t use it. But I think that for naming it, focusing on clarity and then what is the biggest drive? So sometimes you can even start with the promise of your course, and this can be confusing because as experts, we can do a lot for people.

And if we like to teach and learn, we can think, well, I can help you with this. I can help you with this. I can help you X, Y, Z, but we have to really hone in on one clear promise for your offer. Are you promising to double sales? Are you promising a first profitable launch? Are you promising more money during a photoshoot? And even that’s a little vague, many sessions, here’s how to create profitable mini sessions. And that was one of Rebecca Rice’s offers. So we have to have that very clear promise. And then sometimes the naming, you can come back to it, and it fits best with that clear promise.

Rob Marsh:  Beyond getting the name right, and being clear and clever, what else do we really need to focus in on to make sure that our offers are as irresistible as possible?

Lander Sulser:  Yes. Okay. So you’ve named the course. You have a very clear promise, and then you have the course layout. What goes into the course that all drives to the course promise. This is not your bonus. And this is helpful and a helpful exercise because when we can help people with so many things, those tend to blend. But if you have a very clear promise, what are the core things that they must have to get to that clear promise. And that can help you structure like here’s the intro, here is exactly what you need next, and here’s what you need next. And here’s what you need next.

And then that’s all very focused on the promise. And then, if you’re like, well, for an irresistible offer, if you have one, a bonus could be the launch. So you’re fitting into and seeing what fits into the bonuses and what fits into the course layout. So you have naming the course, a very clear promise and then what’s going into the course that fits into that promise.

Kira Hug:  Let’s dive deeper into the promise because I think it’s easy to get hung up on the promise. And sometimes we feel like, okay, I want to make this big promise, but I’m afraid I won’t be able to fulfill the promise, and maybe it’s too big. Maybe I’m promising too much. And so we tend to pull back and then our promise just gets diluted, and it does not stand out. And it’s not as effective. So do you have any techniques, strategies, approaches so that we can identify the right promise, go big, but maybe we don’t go too big where we over-promise.

Lander Sulser:  Yeah. So I always think, just jamming on it. So I’ll be like, here’s some time to jam, just write down everything that your course does help with. It can help you do X, Y, Z. It can help you do this. It can help you do that. And then, you can focus on what is the overall theme. And then create what is the clear promise there. So if you have, like, creating an irresistible offer, it will help you make more sales, it’ll help you share your expertise with more people, you’re going to have a deeper impact.

It becomes really vague, but then I can see what is a super driver for my audience and would be making more sales and bringing more income into their business. So then I can focus on that. What is the clear promise that I can make to them? And it might be doubling your sales or income for that certain area. So that would be the focus. So it really would be that brain dump moment for the clear promise. What does it all help your audience do? And then what is the big driver for your audience?

Rob Marsh:  So Lander, I’m curious, as you’re thinking about these offers, are you also talking and working with your clients about how to price it or working on guarantees or thinking about the terms of an offer or even like a broader level positioning, how it fits into the marketplace? Is that all part of an offer too, or do you really focus in on, again, the promise and delivering on that promise?

Lander Sulser:  Yes. We fit everything into it as well, like the guarantee and the pricing, and I have a download worksheet. You can find it on my website too, but I really focus on these four things first; the main course, clear promise, course layout, and bonuses. And then we come in and do pricing, et cetera, because I think that when it comes to pricing, it’s easier to make the decision when you see the clear layout of what everything goes into your offer. And you’re like, whoa, I really am giving a great deal here. And you see, you’re excited about the clear promise of what you’re actually delivering to your audience and what you’re able to give there.

And one thing too, for clear, promising too, is like looking at competitor research and everyone else’s promise because that can be really fun to see those different interactions and it follow-throughs there. So I think that really getting set on these things helps you flow into pricing it and getting excited about pricing it if any mindset issues come up, as well as the guarantee and really standing by what you’re delivering.

Kira Hug:  Let’s dive into the guarantee because with guarantees, the way I learned about the guarantee is that the guarantee is really for the customer. It’s to help reduce friction. So it’s a no-brainer for them to just say, “yes, I have nothing to lose.” But when I worked with clients and just other collaborators, I feel like there’s always so much pushback around the guarantee. And it’s like, “Oh, as the creator of this product, I don’t want to get screwed over by the customer.”

And so the guarantee doesn’t actually do what it needs to do, which is to overcome objections and hesitations. So, I’m curious, Lander, how do you approach the guarantee? How do you think about it? And how you lay that out?

Lander Sulser:  I feel very similar to you, Kira. I do hear that as well. And I think one pushback when people ask that is like, if we’re really creating something amazing here, and we have this clear promise, and we’re really building it, we do need to stand next to it. And that’s what we’re doing with the guarantee and showing these people.

And when we think about our audience coming through and connecting through very random internet, it’s not like super random, but you know what I mean? We’re not able to see each other in person; we’re relying on certain things to really get us to this point to buy and having that moment where you are standing by your offer.

It is really powerful. So you can make it about you, or you can really make it about your audience and how they’re feeling. So I’m being very clear here. I don’t say this with my clients, but I think that’s that moment of you standing by your offer.

Rob Marsh:  Lander, do you have advice for somebody who might be thinking, “Hey, I want to create a course. I’m really good at this thing that I do.” Maybe it’s voice guides, or maybe it’s sales pages, or maybe it’s email sequences, but I’m also hyper-aware that there are already five, 10, 20 courses offering the same thing. How do you help someone in that position really differentiate what they want to offer and sell to their audience versus everything else that’s out there?

Lander Sulser:  That is a great question. And a lot of it comes down to magnetic messaging. When you’re selling, you have your irresistible offer. You have your own messaging, and then you have your marketing and your messaging throughout. It is going to create that separation from your competition because you are bringing something completely unique by sharing your own expertise and your own angle from this. And I think we’ve seen this so many times like, yes, there are so many offers out there, but some people want something more unique. They want a different angle, and you might have that angle.

For creating an online course, we know that Amy Porterfield has her Digital Course Academy, but there are also people who are looking for something a bit different. They still want to create a course, but they want more information about the copy-side of it, or they want more information, more, not handholding, but they want more coaching through it. So there’s a different experience they want. So you’re creating your own unique experience with your own messaging that connects with a unique audience. And that’s what you’re building throughout, creating your own irresistible offer.

Kira Hug:  I wonder what shifts you’ve seen over the last few years, especially over the pandemic with courses and the offers developed in the course space. Have you noticed any changes with your clients and your own offers as far as, like, oh, they’re emphasizing the community element because people were mostly locked inside at home, or they’re adding more bonuses around this idea. Are there any shifts that you’ve seen?

Lander Sulser:  Yes. There’s a great deal of shifts. I think that we have this normal launch or a typical launch experience where you would send up for the webinar. You would go to the webinar, you would go through the emails, and maybe you would join or not join. And now we’re seeing a bit of more interaction within the launch. And by that, I mean, a bit more reach out in the launch emails a bit more time before the launch, the pre-launch work. So people have something that leads up to the webinar that you can interact with the team or with the individual selling on a certain topic and get a win before you’re even in the webinar.

I think we’re seeing a lot more points of video connection. So in an email, during a launch, you can reach out to people. And I think that personal touch, even adding a phone call opportunity to speak to the person or the team, we’re seeing a lot more of that because there’s this craving right for a personal touch. And I think there is an example of selling evergreen and never having to touch the product or create community really, which is a time of, we’re no longer in that space. And I think now, when we talk evergreen. It’s still that you’re opening up the doors for a conversation. If they want to purchase or not, it is still building a community on the back end that really fuels and answers the questions for your audience.

So I do think that we’re seeing more of a high-touch launch period now and creating a space of kindness within the launch. One powerful thing to do during the launch, too is if you have your fast action bonus, we have people coming through the funnel. They’re in, like, high-stress situations. Either they’re working, they came back and tried to lug, and they totally missed it. And now, that feeling isn’t a great feeling. What are we allowing our audience to feel? So giving space like, “Hey, if you didn’t quite get this, you don’t have time to make this fast action bonus decision. Click here for a call with my team. And then  we’ll honor the fast bonus as long as you just schedule it today.” And I think that there’s little points of kindness we can create throughout the launch. And pre-launch, that build a relationship.

Kira Hug:  All right. I’ve got a few points I’d like to share, but Rob, you go first. What resonated with you?

Rob Marsh:  Yeah. So again, as always lots of bullets and notes that I pushed out or I dropped into my notebook. So a couple of things that I think are really important, we asked Lander how she connects to these big clients, and she gave a couple of ideas and it’s not necessarily anything new, but I think it’s really important to repeat and just emphasize that the place to connect with good clients is where good clients hang out. And that is masterminds, high-level groups, and communities, and I really like that Lander connected with people, with her podcast and by being a guest on other people’s podcasts.

So, having those kinds of unique connections with higher-level clients, in order to create them, you’ve got to go where they are. And so worth repeating, worth emphasizing. If you want to connect with clients that spend money, have big programs and masterminds and high-level groups are a really good place to find them.

Kira Hug:  And we often talk about cold emailing and pitching on this podcast and with copywriters in the different communities. And sometimes, I think we almost make it too complicated and overthink it and make it too formulaic because we want to get it right. And because there are so many ways you could do it, we’re almost trying to follow a template. And what Lander shared that’s such a great reminder to me is that it’s really simple. And it’s just if you take away all the formulas and the templates and the tips. It’s really just forming a genuine connection with someone else. And that’s what Lander has done so well by reaching out to people that resonate with her and the people that excite her, and people that she wants to genuinely connect within business.

And I think people feel that when she reaches out to them, I don’t think she probably has this perfect pitch template that she can sell, or maybe she does. But I think it’s more about people feeling her positive energy and that she’s just someone who really does like what they’re doing and actually wants to help them. I think what she said she will say is something like, “I think we align, I think you’re really cool. Can I help you with this project?” And that’s not just this magical line of copy. It’s just something that she truly means. And that’s why it works for her.

Rob Marsh:  Yeah. I’m glad you said that because, like everybody else, like every other copywriter in the world, I’ve downloaded tons of pitch templates, some of them paid, some of them are free, or whatever. And as I look at them, they almost never fit the situation that I’m in. They don’t fit either my personality. They maybe don’t fit what I want to do with the client. And I think, yeah, it’s nice to see those and see examples of how other people are connecting, but it has to be real.

It has to be your brand voice. It has to be something that your customer can relate to. And the more I think about pitching and connecting with clients. It really is just creating those relationships, friendships before anything else. And that’s not really done with a pitch template. It’s done by just being you.

Kira Hug:  Yeah. It’s almost like just showing up as a messy human rather than this smooth operating marketer, and people, especially today, I think, just resonate with that. I also like that you mentioned Rob Masterminds, Lander joined a mastermind early on and that seemed to work for her. I know that was a big part of my early  “success.” When I was getting started, I accidentally fell into it where I spoke at a mastermind group, and it wasn’t even a great presentation, but I was in the right room with the right people.

And I was the only copywriter in the room, and work ended up working with like seven or eight of the people in that mastermind. And it helped me just take off in my business. So I agree with Lander. Finding those masterminds, you don’t necessarily have to join it, but you can maybe build a relationship with someone in the group and run a presentation in that group. That is a perfect fit for that community.

Rob Marsh:  Yeah. So let’s talk about the main thing we talked about with Lander, and that is offers. She’s done a ton of work around an offer where she helps other people create their own offers, and we went through bullet points, but naming offers specifically is maybe a good place to start. And we’ve actually seen Lander go through this process and talking about this in other groups as well. And I love what she said that it needs to be clear, not necessarily clever. And I think a lot of times we get hung up on creating something that’s clever or appealing to us, but it doesn’t necessarily communicate the promise of the course or what the person’s going to get out of it. And so, as you think about naming, make it clear, maybe focus on the promise of the course she mentioned.

And some examples of that when we talk about 10Xing your business or whatever, there’s a promise right there, it’s like, I can help you 10X business. And that maybe is a good name for a course. She also mentioned alliteration, which… And another example of how to name is taking somebody from here to there. An example of both of those things is our friend, Erin Pennings. Who’s been on the podcast and her program, Whomp-Whomp to Wow, there’s alliteration. And it also takes you from this mistake or this bad place to this amazing place. And those are maybe just some ideas as far as naming your offer so that you start connecting with the right clients.

Kira Hug:  Well, yeah. And it’s even better than that with Whomp-Whomp to Wow, which I just love to say Erin named it Whomp-Whomp to Wow because her course is focused on taking website copy from Whomp-Whomp to Wow. So there’s even more alliteration in there, but it sticks with you. I mean, anytime we hear that name, I think of Erin, puts a smile on my face. And so I love naming. I think it’s a really fun process. I think it’s something that many of us copywriters skip over, or we just move through it very quickly, even though this is what we do for a living. We come up with clarity, we’re creative, but it’s just hard to do it for your own offers.

So focusing on that or brainstorming, or even hiring a fellow copywriter to help you with your own names can go a long way. I do think when we started the Copywriter Club, Rob; I remember thinking like, this name is not as creative as I want it to be. I mean, I feel like we’re creative folks. We need a more creative name for the Copywriter Club, but it works well because it’s clear, and there’s a benefit baked into it with Club. You automatically understand the benefit is that there’s a community. And so I do agree with Lander that oftentimes clarity is the way to go. And then you can always add a little bit of clever and creativity later.

Rob Marsh:  Yeah. In addition to the name, she mentioned the other three steps in creating that offer is making sure you’ve got your course layout done, adding some bonuses, and then being really clear on the promise and making it a big promise. And I think, as we think about courses that we offer or if you’re listening to the course that you want to build, or even if it’s not a course, it’s a product of some kind, you want to follow the same structure, you want to obviously have that clear name with a clear promise. You want to have the ingredients, the course layout, or what it all includes. Some bonuses that increase the value and help you get things done and a big promise that’s going to take you to that transformation that you need to deliver. So really critical elements of an offer that I think a lot of times we, as copywriters, we just skip over it.

Our clients show up and say, okay, here’s what I am selling. And we say, great; we take it. And we write a sales page; we write sales emails. We write content around that. And we don’t question whether they’ve got any of these elements right. Do they have a great name? Are there bonuses? Is the real value here? Is the promise big enough? Because if we can help them improve those things like we hinted out in the introduction to this episode, that’s impacting 40% of the success of this promotion, as opposed to just the 20% that we impacted. We’re only focused on copy.

Kira Hug:  Yeah. And I think the area where we can improve is the promise. It all starts with the promise. And you said coming up with a big promise is important, but sometimes just coming up with a specific promise is most important. And you and I talk to a lot of copywriters about their new offers. Oftentimes what’s missing is the promise. Even though this is what we do for our clients, it’s just, again, something that we overloo,k and then we’re building a new product without a clear and specific promise. So I would start with that piece when you’re creating your new offer or working with a client on their offer.

Rob Marsh:  We also talked about how guarantees impact your offer. And while that’s not specifically part of what Lander for things are, it’s definitely an important part of getting your clients to say, yes, you and I have gone back over different ideas that we have for guarantees of things that we offer. But a guarantee does something really important. Most of the persuasion stuff that we do, we’re trying to attract people to our offer. Those are all techniques that are called alpha techniques.

The guarantee is different. It’s trying to keep people from moving away once they see the offer from backing away and saying, oh, I can’t really try it right now, or that inertia that they might have a guarantee is to help overcome that. It’s actually an omega technique, is what it’s called. And if you get the guarantee right, it can make all the difference once you’ve got all of that other stuff lined up for your offer.

Kira Hug:  Yeah. And the guarantee is not to protect you as the business owner. It is to help your prospects work through the offer so that they want to move forward. Like you just said. And so it’s supposed to relieve them of any lingering anxiety. And this is something again that I think a lot of times our clients don’t fully get. And so we may have to explain it to them as consultants. This is how it can help you if we really nail this guarantee. And it’s for your prospect, not for you.

Rob Marsh:  Yeah. It’s interesting, too, because I think even a lot of smart marketers want to create all these barriers in their guarantees. You’ve got to go through all of the material and do all of the work in order to prove that you did and it didn’t work before you can get a guarantee. And while that may reduce the number of people who ask for a guarantee, it also almost certainly reduces the number of sales that you get on the front end, because people look at that and say, “Oh, what if I can’t get all the work done or what if I have to do it a little bit differently, or my offer is different.”

And so, like you said, your guarantee really needs to be about your client, about their experience, about removing the obstacles to trying, and the better your guarantee is for them, the more sales that you’re going to get upfront. And yeah, there are some refunds that will happen on the back end. Not every offer is a fit for every customer. You just have to be okay with that. And a really good guarantee can attract the right people to your business.

Kira Hug:  Yeah. I wonder if that anxiety around crafting the guarantee that’s actually better for the customer stems from the low completion rates that we currently have in the course space that if it’s more of a customer experience side of things, where if we improve our courses and programs and offers and increase completion rates, maybe we’ll feel better about writing guarantees that are for the customer and not serving our own business.

Rob Marsh:  Yeah. That’s interesting too. I mean, you and I had a conversation with another copywriter just a couple of days ago, this isn’t really part of this podcast, but I think it’s interesting when we were talking about completion rates and the way that buyers use courses actually may explain why some of those completion rates are so low and it might be okay if we release a course that only has 10% or 20% completions because a lot of clients, or a lot of people who buy courses, they’re not buying the entire course. They need what’s happening in module three and not modules one, two, and four.

And so they go in, they get the information they need, they get the value that they wanted to get, but they don’t go through maybe the basic stuff that was in one or two, or maybe they implemented a different way, which was explained in module four. So they don’t actually complete the course, but they get a lot of value. So a lot of people, I think, use courses in different ways. And again, a guarantee that forces them to complete the course may actually hinder rather than help.

Kira Hug:  Yeah. And just to add to that, before we move on, I think that’s where customized courses could be really cool. Where if you jump into a course as a user, that you could set your own success and your own goal for that course completion. And maybe Rob, if you join a course and you know, you only need modules four and five, then you set that intention from the beginning, and there’s some feedback loop so that when you complete module, four, five, but you don’t complete one, two and three, you are successful, and you have 100% completion rate.

And the course creator gets that feedback. So they know that they were successful too. And we don’t look at it as a loss. So maybe that’s just something that we think about in the way that we’re structuring our courses too.

Rob Marsh:  Yeah. I really like that idea, giving people just the opportunity to engage with content the way that it makes sense for them, as opposed to the way that we structure it when we put things together.

Kira Hug:  Okay. So before we wrap up this part of the conversation, is there anything else that stood out to you?

Rob Marsh:  So I think it’s probably just worth emphasizing some of the changes that have happened that Lander mentioned since the pandemic and just the craving that we have for one on one or group interaction. We saw that when we got together in Nashville with our event, people really are craving a personal touch. They’re craving human connection. And even if it’s happening on video, the more that we can build this into a launch process, or into the products that we offer, I think there’s just a real opportunity right now for that kind of an experience.

And so if you’re listening to this and thinking, okay, what can I do with my products or my services, or how can I improve them or give my clients a better experience. It may just be that personal touch, that personal connection, maybe it’s a video call or even text or whatever can be personal. But I think a lot of us are craving that interaction. And there’s a real opportunity right now to give that.

Kira Hug:  Oh, my gosh, please do not let it be text because I feel like I’m already getting a lot of text messages from marketers. And even companies I like, and I’m like, please stop texting me. So maybe not text messaging, depending on your audience, but we’ve pulled this into our marketing as well. And even with our accelerator launch, we’ve added one-on-one video, meet and greet conversations so that Rob and I can talk to copywriters that are interested in the Accelerator, but maybe on the fence and maybe not, they have a question or two.

Half the time, I think they just want to see who’s behind the course or meet Rob or me and just understand that there’s a face and a person behind what they’re about to possibly join. And so I think if you can give that one-on-one touch in your marketing, it can go a long way. Now let’s get back to the interview with Lander and hear her take on what’s not working in launches anymore.

Rob Marsh:  I really like the idea of creating points of kindness, and that appeals to me on all kinds of levels. While we’re talking about marketing courses, are there things that people have been doing that are not working so well or maybe not working at all anymore that we should be avoiding?

Lander Sulser:  Just to redirect the question a bit. Yes, okay, so I’ll give an example. I think that anything that feels high touch or VIP but isn’t – is not the route to go. Meaning if you’re like, “hey, I’ve got this really elite group,” okay? So mastermind, you can apply here, and only a few people come in. And then you go through it, and you see that it’s like anybody who applies gets in, and it isn’t quite the experience that you were expecting. Those moments don’t feel great. And if you have that in your funnel, that’s what we would really readjust and focus on, making your clients and people that come through as VIP as they should. And so I think those moments that maybe worked before aren’t so great anymore. And I think we’re all asking about sales right now.

What is ethical sales? What does it look like? How do I include it? A lot of people come back about the guarantee; like Kira mentioned, they also want to talk about bonuses. They’re like, is this ethical to have bonuses? I would sell it anyway. And then there’s also the money stack. When you were talking about stacking your offer, and you show the financial gain from joining what it would cost if you did it this way and all adds up to $6,000, but you can buy now for $1,000. I think a lot of people are asking, is this ethical? And so those are points we can talk about too. I’d love to get your opinion as well. I’m sure the audience would love to speak to them too.

Kira Hug:  What do you do, Lander, to pose that question with your clients to make sure that it feels ethical to you, to your client. It works for their unique audience. How do you direct that conversation?

Lander Sulser:  Yes. People want to talk about, should we really talk about the problems? And I know, but copywriters, we do see that, but if your audience is kicking back at all, it’s a great point to talk about. So yeah, when it comes to those points, of course, always follow your intuition. I’m not going to tell my client it is or is not ethical. It’s truly: how do you feel about it? And then we talk it out. We know that the sales page’s purpose is to give someone, like a cold audience member, let’s say it’s for a cold audience coming to the sales page. They need as much information as possible. And they need to know the financial gain or what it would cost to do that. So how can we create that? If you don’t want the offer stack that doesn’t feel great, there are other ways we can use wording to showcase this. Like, for what your money or your coffee budget is for the year, you can buy this course.

So there’s certain ways we can frame it to show the financial side of it and cost and just talk through what feels ethical to them. In my case, I feel like it is ethical. If you are not making up the people, of course, if you’re making up prices or the numbers for certain offers, then that’s not great. That’s not what we want. But if I can show, like for me to have a kick-off hour with me is $497. So I could put that on my sales page. Yeah, you can get an hour with me, and you can get this coaching for 2K, and you can get my eyes on your sales page for X amount, or you can buy my package, all of this, put together for this deal here that I’m offering. And that, to me feels great. And so just creating those moments with my clients that feel good to them. I’m never going to tell them if I would always say, go with your intuition.

Rob Marsh:  Yeah. To me, I think I’m on the same page as you, Lander. It’s like, if you can sell the thing for the price that you say you’re selling it for, then that seems fair to me. But if you’re just throwing a price on something that’s never been sold to the public, or you’re trying to make it look good, and you would probably discount it from what you’re saying on your sales page, that feels unethical to me.

And I think the beginning point really is, does the thing that I’m selling work? Will it deliver the transformation I’m promising not with a maximum effort but with a reasonable effort? If I do the work, I don’t have to put a superheroic effort into doing it in order to get the result, but I can just do a reasonable amount of effort. I’m going to get a result then. Then I think you’re in a good place there.

Lander Sulser:  Yeah. And I think like bringing it all together, I know too, like for some of my clients, this is marketing is new to them, so yes, they’re their expert in what they do. And they want to share this with the world, and then marketing can be a great deal and very overwhelming. And there’s like a lot we’re working through internally when we even think about sales and money. So creating that sense of space for yourself as you’re growing your own irresistible offer and getting it out there, like just acknowledging what you feel and why you feel it. And I think always coming back to what is the purpose of the sales page is. If it’s the sale page that I’m coming to, what is the purpose of the guarantee? And am I reaching that? And, like, what is my internal feeling here?

Rob Marsh:  Yeah. So I know, Lander, that you have written promotions and created offers for clients. You mentioned a couple that has been wildly successful, and you also have a second service where you coach people through the process. Can you talk a little bit about the difference between the basic do it for me and do it with me services that you offer?

Lander Sulser:  Yes. So the writing is more VIP and higher priced. So I will come in, and I have my process that I’ll do a ton of research, and that can be getting on the phone. It’ll do competitor research and create a detailed document for you. And then I go to writing wireframing editing, they get two edits within a certain amount of time and then write, it’s the watching for conversions and optimizing. So for some teams, I’ll come back and say like, how did this page perform? Here’s what we can do in the future to make it even higher converting. So that would be my higher-end package. And then, coming into the coaching, some people are like, well, I just want a first profitable launch. That’s why it came up with your first profitable launch. And I come through with the irresistible offer.

Well, that’s not true. I always start with research. So we do research. If they have an audience, then I’ll have my surveys for them. And they’re very similar to the surveys I’ll do for clients on the higher end. And then we’ll go through it together. So they’re in charge of, like, sneak it out themselves. And we talk about how the process is and what best ways to get survey results. And then, we’ll go through those surveys together. And that really fuels the offer point, because then I have this document where we fill out the irresistible offer together. And we talk about who the ideal client is, especially when we’re just starting. It can be hard to, and many times it’s confused with who I am or who they are as the expert.

And we’re really coming from where the audience is and who that person is because at different stages. So one recent coaching client is amazing at Facebook ads. She’s just, hands down, wonderful. But she’s like, well, I don’t want to watch a webinar. And it’s like, well, you’re not your ideal client, and your ideal client we know, and have seen, have seen through the numbers and things they will watch a webinar. And when it’s done right, a great training. So having those moments of like you versus your ideal client and separating those two, and how can you truly help your ideal client.

Kira Hug:  For copywriters who want to offer some type of coaching service? What would you recommend they do or don’t do, maybe pulling from some of the mistakes that you’ve made?

Lander Sulser:  Yeah. I mean, honestly, make it as easy as possible for yourself. What already flows. You can hear the flow from mine as well, that it is like research, and then I don’t get too involved with it. I offer my best advice. And then the surveys, which are wonderful. And then I share them, have that moment that we’re speaking on the phone, coaching them through it. And then they come back, and we go through it together, which is also what I love to do. If you’re like, “Lander, this sounds miserable. I don’t want to coach”, you don’t have to coach. You can do it in a totally different way. There are audits and other things you can do. But so if you’re coaching, I think breaking it down into very easy steps of what you’re already doing.

Kira Hug:  As a follow-up, when you’re coaching, how many sessions are you packaging together? And if you don’t mind sharing roughly, how much are you charging for something like this?

Lander Sulser:  Yeah. I charge $2,000 for it, and I have kept that for a while. In the beginning, too, I saw it right away. So I started with copywriting, and then I did audits. So I would audit your website, audit your offer, audit your launch. And it quickly came that the trigger point was the irresistible offer. And so that was the easy flow for me to go, okay, I can now coach you. I know exactly how to get you your first profitable launch. Let’s do this together, and we’d do the research. We would then meet about the irresistible offer and focus on it. And then I’m just there. And the next few weeks, I’m like, all right, it’s sales page time. Okay. Here’s email templates. It’s email time and then putting it together for them in that way, not for them, but with them, coaching them through it.

And they would come to me with questions. So I had Slack. and I had worked with someone who organized launches, and she had said, I always set my hours, always. And you do that as a coach or for whatever package you’ve got that has any type of connection with your client, set your hours. And then even say, I’m a busy mom. Sometimes I’ll log in at night or on a Saturday morning, but it doesn’t mean I’m always available to talk. I might respond. I’ll let you know in which place I am. So I think just being incredibly clear and creating those boundaries beforehand is helpful to make it go as smoothly as possible.

And then, I tend to be a perfectionist, but coaching allowed me to let it go a little bit because I could talk them through it. I could supply templates when they needed them. And that just made it super easy for me to walk through in my own mind what they needed, where the holes were, and just talk through it. And for me, in a way, that felt really chill vibes.

Rob Marsh:  So Lander, you said you charged $2,000 for the coaching. What do you charge for the regular do it for me package? How do they compare?

Lander Sulser:  For my write your copy for you?

Rob Marsh:  Yes.

Lander Sulser:  Yeah. So my copy packages start at $4,000, and for launching, it usually will be around the $6,000. Meaning they’re like, I want a sales page and this landing page here or fill in the blank.

Rob Marsh:  Okay. Yeah. That’s useful for comparison. And then, you mentioned your research process. I’m curious, what is the research that goes into figuring out the offer and the positioning and all of the stuff. How long does that take, and what do you do for that?

Lander Sulser:  All right. Let’s talk about how long it takes because if you’re like me and other copywriters who love to learn and research is a safe zone. I think we have to have a hard stop date. You have a start, and you have a stop, and you have a clear plan in between, and you just can’t go any further because you need to move to the next step. So I think if you’re someone who loves to learn, research feels safe. This is an easy area to get lost in. And so I will put that forthright. So you have… I love doing competitor research. It also helps us later down the road with pricing and things. So looking at other offers, how much are they priced? What is the language? Who is their ideal client?

Can we pull from that? Do you feel like their pain points are similar or what they want is similar looking at testimonials even. I love doing that. And then surveying your audience and seeing their responses to things and asking particular questions. If they’ve sold anything before, why did they choose to work with you? What almost kept them from working with you? And having just those moments and looking at the testimonials of what people have written for you, if you have some, those are big wins and help us get clear. And then, we use that information. So mostly, it’s competitor research and surveys. There’s tons more we can do, but those are usually the focus with coaching.

Kira Hug:  Lander, when I hear you talking about the work that you do, you always sound so confident to me, and I’m just wondering what type of mindset work you’ve done, or maybe it’s not mindset related, but what you’ve done to really feel this level of confidence in the work you do and how you present it and how you talk about it? Because that’s something that many of us struggle with.

Lander Sulser:  Well, yeah, I reached out to Kira, in 2018 and then never just followed up. So mindset has been huge, and it comes and goes, and I’ve had trauma in my life. So it aligns with those dates. And I think just creating a kind space for myself because I will have highs and lows and then surrounding yourself with amazing people like being with Rob and Kira, there are these moments of if I’m in a safe space, I’m going to shine more and that’s what great people do. So I think surrounding yourself with people that are amazing, and that share your same values. That can be really helpful. I’ve read books on money mindset. I’ve realized…

I think, yeah. Listening and how I talked to myself was huge. I was not great at building myself up. How I started my morning, and I don’t mean like a morning process. Yeah. I’m not a morning person. I just mean like the language I would… What I would say to myself when I looked in the mirror or if I was avoiding the mirror or in high stress with my kids when I start to get angsty, what’s going on? What am I telling myself? What is the story here? And rewriting those stories has been one of the most powerful things. And then realizing, like, I’ve written all throughout my life. I love writing. And I was telling myself for a long time I wasn’t a great writer.

I wasn’t as great as I wasn’t the best at this. I needed X, Y, Z. And I still do that. I still do that. And part of it is just like, okay, I know that’s a pain point for me. I’m not going to fix it overnight. And here is the next step. And then, as someone who’s experienced trauma or lived life, I go into therapy. Is something really important that I believe in?

Rob Marsh:  So while we’re talking about this kind of mindset stuff, a related question is just, how do you get it all done? I mean, you mentioned it’s hard to leave the house. Sometimes you’ve got a family. You’re working on these high-level projects. Do you have processes for making sure that, like you said, you’re only spending a certain amount of time on research and you’re actually getting work done? What does the planner portion of the business look like?

Lander Sulser:  It looks like the biggest jolt in my business in the right way. The trajectory I wanted was from Copyhackers in setting your day and your week. And I loved that Joanna was like, “you can work on a Saturday if you want to.” And I read a book that was like, how she does it, I think is the name of it. And it’s all these women who have made over 100K and like what their life looks like. And some would wake up at 3:00 AM and not be able to go to sleep, and they would just work. And that became one of their work structures. And it’s not like that it’s right or wrong. It’s just like, you create what you need. And for me, I work best in the mornings.

I work best at set hours. So now I work a set of four to five hours a day, and I have a very clear what-to- do-today structure. And I also like freedom. So some people choose one day for freedom. And for me, that might look like I’m creating a bit more space each day, like 30 minutes of just do what I want, figure it out or have fun or research or listen to a podcast and just create little spaces that felt good to me. That meant an energy burst later.

Kira Hug:  How do you stay focused when you’re not in work mode? And you’re present with your family or you’re having some me time? How do you avoid slipping back into work and maybe not sitting down at your laptop, but just thinking about it and not thinking about it in a positive way, but just being pulled back in?

Lander Sulser:  I’m not great at that at all times. I think that there are certain times of day that it’s worse and sometimes it’s just better for me to work a little bit because I just really enjoy it. And I think it’s that same point like do I want to work because I’m excited, or am I feeding some other type of energy? And if the answer is like, I’m just excited. I think this is really cool. It’s feeding me. Then I can make it a little extra time to work here and there if I want to.

And if not, if it’s negative, then I need to do hot yoga, or I need to go on and run, or I need to do something else positive that just gets me focused on something else. Because I do tend to need something to kick that off physically, like running or hiking. Those really help me.

Rob Marsh:  So Lander, you’re you live in a smaller state, smaller town. You’re not surrounded by everybody in, say like, a New York City-type experience. How do you make sure that you’re getting seen? What are the things that you’re doing to build your authority and to make sure that you’re showing up where people can find you?

Lander Sulser:  Oh, I love that. I think I’ve played it safer for a long time. I think that my podcast has been a big one for me. I am currently trying to get on other podcasts. I think making connections through masterminds has been the most powerful for me since I’m not leaving 2020 like no one left, really. That was a great time to connect with people and put me in the right place. Meaning the people I want to work with the energy I want to be around, and what I enjoy doing.

And so that’s really powerful. So I think doing masterminds has been one of the best things for me to get around the people I want to be around. And now, to be on podcasts and move there that way, I now have really strong connections with amazing people that I’m really excited about. So that’s how I’m doing it now is really my own podcast. And then reaching out for others on podcasts.

Kira Hug:  And Lander, we’ve been able to work with you in the Think Tank. I’m just curious, what has surprised you the most about your experience in the Think Tank, especially given that you’ve been in other mastermind groups as well?

Lander Sulser:  Yeah. So I have been in other mastermind groups, and I am not a high-energy person. So I realized in the beginning, I think one thing I thought was I should be around high-energy people because, like, for example, there’s a launch I did. And it was fairly successful. I could have kept going with it, but it was high energy. It was me every day. It was everything that exhausted me. And so I wasn’t showing up 100%. By that, I mean I was so tired by the end of the day, and my mind was just not able to shut off, and it was high touch. So I just don’t do well in those situations. So I was like, okay, I know that I am a highly sensitive person.

I know I’m introverted and I love connection. So can I find someone who fits that? And I remember being on the call with Kira and being like, hey, I’m super introverted. Here’s what I like, and it just really flowed and I have not even seen masterminds people; I’ve worked with such a cool kind of inviting space. Rob and Kira are so giving. I feel VIP every day in the group. I will say that in my own terms of that. And I love working with two as well as the group. And I feel like I’m more focused on my goals than I have been before.

Rob Marsh:  So we talked a lot about offers, and we know that you’ve been working on a workshop and program to help people with their offers. Tell us about the thing that you’re building.

Lander Sulser:  Yes. So I have a workshop really focused on hone in your own irresistible offer. And the exciting thing about this is like, once you have this process, you can use it for your online course or if you’re like, “Hey, that coaching sounded really cool. I want to try it.” You can use it for your coaching. You can also use it for audits and create more income. My goal is to help people create more income through the business. We need more avenue streams if we really want to reach our financial goals without becoming so exhausted. So how do you reach your goals and ease into online offers without losing track of your own goals and taking tons of your time?

So we want to focus on your irresistible offer and creating that. So I’m going to do a workshop on how to do that and how to break down your offer. Feel really excited about it. Yeah. Naming it, creating the clear promise, course layout. And what I love too is each of these places. Once you have that irresistible offer and all those names in place, you really can plug it into a sales page, super easy, or get on some of the calls. You don’t always even need a sales page, you can get on a call and really flow through it, and your audience is excited about it and you are excited about it. So I have a workshop all about creating your own irresistible offer.

Kira Hug:  And when is that taking place, Lander?

Lander Sulser:  It is taking place on May 26th. There will be a recording of it as well that you can purchase. But right now the live workshop will be on May 26th.

Kira Hug:  Okay. And for anyone listening, who wants to jump in there, where should they go to register for the event?

Lander Sulser:  Right now, you’ll go to my resource page on my website. So landersulser.com\resources.

Kira Hug:  All right. And Lander for anyone who just wants to connect with you and say, hello, what is the best place to say hello to you?

Lander Sulser:  The best place would be Facebook. I have a Facebook page. You can check out Instagram. It’s really my family life there, but Lander Sulser. And then my Facebook page is Lander Sulser as well.

Rob Marsh:  Awesome. Thanks, Lander for sharing so much detail about what you do in your business. We appreciate it. And looking forward to your workshop in just a few days.

Lander Sulser:  Thank you very much.

Kira Hug:  Thanks, Lander.

Rob Marsh:  That’s the interview with Lander, but before we leave, before we wrap up, Kira, what else jumped out to you that we really ought to put a couple of exclamation points on?

Kira Hug:  Exclamations. Well, I don’t know if I put an exclamation on it, but I did like that we talked about ethical marketing and figuring out what feels right in our own businesses and what may feel right for our clients. And so I like that Lander talks about this with her clients and it’s part of her process. It sounded like it’s part of her process to understand what feels right to her clients and not necessarily force Lander’s beliefs on someone else, but to work with them and customize what they do in the launch of their course. And so, I enjoy that part of our conversation. I think it’s always interesting and all the different viewpoints are interesting around what makes ethical marketing ethical. I don’t totally understand the conversation around pain points and agitating pain points being unethical. I’m definitely open to more people’s opinions and thoughts on that.

I don’t think Lander necessarily was speaking to that or saying that pain points are not ethical and agitating them or is not ethical at all, but it did make me think about it. And I feel like when we identify pain points as copywriters and marketers in copy, I see it as something positive. Not only because we know it works and helps people identify and put their hand up to say, this is me. But I feel like when I read it helps me feel seen as a human, if I am reading copy and an advertisement and I really connect with the pain points, it helps me feel seen and understood and less alone, because I’m like, oh, wow. It’s not just me. Somebody else feels this way too.

And so I think there’s a lot of good we can do when we do agitate pain points and highlight pain points to help people feel less alone and more connected to other beings out there who may be dealing with the same thing. So I don’t know, Rob, if you have more insights into what people mean when they say that agitating pain points is unethical.

Rob Marsh:  Yeah. I’m with you on that. I am reluctant to say we should never emphasize pain points. I do think that there may be a few marketers out there that go so far that they’re not just showing that they’re relating to people, but they’re really almost helping people relive a trauma. And if that’s what your copy is doing, of course, back off a little bit. We’re not trying to have people go through these traumatic experiences again, we just need to remind them of the pain that they’re feeling and the fact that our solution is connected to that. It can fix that. It can help them make progress. And so, yeah, maybe you can overdo it, but I’m with you. I think in most cases it’s not really about sticking the knife in and making it hurt.

It’s simply reminding them of how much pain they’ve had. And there is a solution that can help relieve that in some way. And as long as you’re staying on that side of the line, wherever that line is, I agree with you. The same way. And I think we talked a little bit about the pricing stack as well. I just saw a promotion a couple of days ago where I think the sales price was under $1,000 and the bonuses and everything added up to like $38,000 of value.

Kira Hug:  No way.

Rob Marsh:  It’s just one of those things where I’m like, this is just so ridiculously over the top. It doesn’t really make sense. It can’t possibly be worth that if you’re selling it to me for this amount of money, even if you’re the nicest guy in the world, it just doesn’t make sense. And so that kind of stuff too, just feels icky. I, again, I’m not sure that it’s unethical, but it doesn’t feel right. And I have a feeling that it probably negatively impacts sales.

Kira Hug:  Yeah. I mean, and I’ve done a lot of this too. I’ve definitely had price stacks where I’m like, everything is priceless. It’s like, this is priceless and this is priceless. You can’t attach a value to this because it’s so valuable. And so I think just reeling it in is important and scaling back and just questioning some of the prices that we’re putting on the page is helpful.

Rob Marsh:  Let’s do less of that stuff and more of the good stuff.

Kira Hug:  Yes. Okay. What else stood out to you, Rob?

Rob Marsh:  So Lander walked us through, do it for you versus do it with you. And this seems like a really big opportunity for a lot of copywriters. I think most of us just get into the habit of do it for you. So we take on the project, we do all of the things, but there is probably for most of us, maybe many of us this opportunity to maybe do a little bit less to charge a little bit less, maybe it’s working with a larger set of clients and actually coaching our clients through the process of doing the stuff instead of doing it ourselves.

So, I think that there’s an opportunity here, if that appeals to you as a listener, go back and listen to that part of the interview again, because you may be able to create a do it with me service instead of do it for you service that fits in really well with the other services you offer, frees up some of your time allows you to work with more clients and maybe a different set of clients that can afford you do it for me services. I just really like that whole discussion.

Kira Hug:  Yes. And I like that Lander mentioned that coaching can be great for perfectionists. I haven’t looked at it that way before, but I know I’m sure many of us have those tendencies to be a perfectionist in our business. And so she was mentioning that coaching has helped her feel a little bit more chill because there are a lot of elements she can’t control. I mean, she didn’t say that in her own words, but when she’s coaching someone, she can give them direction. She can give them feedback, she can give them templates but other than that, she’s got to let go.

And the other person she’s coaching needs to take the reins and run with it. And so that’s been a really helpful practice for me too, is just to let go a little bit and having these a variety of offers other than done for you, where you can let go a little bit is a great way to work, if you are someone who is a high performing perfectionist, it might be worth sampling a done with you offer.

Rob Marsh:  Yes. For sure. I also really appreciated that Lander mentioned that research can become a safe zone for a lot of us. There’s this resistance that happens that keeps us from doing the important work. And sometimes we get so deep into the research and we’re thinking, well, I just need to know this one more thing, or I just need a little bit more feedback from the survey or from more customers before I can move forward with my ideas. It’s just a good emphasis point that we have to set boundaries around that otherwise the resistance can kick in and we don’t actually get the best work done.

Kira Hug:  We talked about Lander’s schedule and how she manages her workload with home and parenting. And she mentioned something about working hours that work best for her and that, if she wants to work late at night, it’s okay, but still sending the message to clients like I can do this, but also I still have boundaries. And that doesn’t mean that I’m going to respond to you at 1:00 AM. And she also mentioned working when she wants to, even if it’s like her off hours because she enjoys it. And I don’t know why, but that really resonated with me just hearing her talk about it. And then pretty soon after our interview with her last weekend, I don’t like to work on the weekends, Rob, because again, if with workaholic tendencies, if I let go and start working on the weekends, like I will just start working all the time.

So I have to have strong boundaries for myself. But when I was thinking about what she said, I was like, well, it’s Saturday, I have this little bit of time that I never have. Why don’t I just work on something that’s really exciting to me right now? And that’s energizing. And so again, it’s almost like she gave permission to me to be able to do that when it feels good and it feels right. And it doesn’t necessarily infringe on a boundary I’ve created.

Rob Marsh:  Yeah. I related to this too and I think there’s a flip side here that doesn’t get talked about enough and that is, it’s also okay to not work in the middle of the day, if you need to take some space away, you want to go for a run or you want to go see a movie. This is one place where I struggle. So I’m really good at the… Oh, I love work. And so I’m at my desk at 7:00 in the morning. And sometimes I’m still sitting at my desk doing things at 7:00 at night, but in the middle of the day, when I’m maybe less effective and I’m just maybe I start scrolling through Twitter or whatever, giving myself permission to step away and saying, actually this would be a really good time to go for a walk or this would be a really good time to take a nap or mole lawn or whatever. It’s okay to do that stuff too, because the business needs to support us as we live our lives. And it’s not just about adding more opportunities for work.

Kira Hug:  You’re right. That always does feel harder, even though I do it. So it still feels strange sometimes.

Rob Marsh:  You feel guilt around it. And I don’t know, it’s weird.

Kira Hug:  It feels like you’re skipping school. And I was exactly, I was like a very good student who did not skip school. I wish I skipped school-

Rob Marsh:  You can’t fluff work.

Kira Hug:  Like that, but I did not. So yeah, it’s good to just identify these things even for you to identify it for me to identify it. I think that’s a good place to start.

Rob Marsh:  Lander also talked a little bit about building confidence, the mindset issues that she’s been around. I just touch on a couple of the bullets, being aware that there are seasons or times where you’re hitting highs and lows and adjusting that by surrounding yourself with people who have the same values that you do. And then being kind in the way that we speak to ourselves, being aware of the language that we use and how that’s impacting us day in and day out. And she mentioned she’s done therapy and that she’s gotten better at rewriting the stories that she tells herself.

And I think all of those are things that we should be doing more of as we go through our days, allowing ourselves just the space. Forgetting comments that we make to ourselves. I’m not as good as Paris or I’m not as good as Marcella or I should be doing this because I know Kira’s doing it, like letting go of that stuff and rewriting the stories that we tell ourselves. So I know we’ve talked about mindset quite a bit over the last couple of years on the podcast, but it’s just good to see how people are applying it in their own businesses.

Kira Hug:  We will not stop talking about mindset anytime soon. Yeah. And she also mentioned matching energy, which we haven’t talked a lot about when you’re looking… I mean, we’ve talked a lot about mentors and looking for coaches, but matching energy levels. And she mentioned in this conversation, but I remember when we were interviewing Lander to join the Think Tank. And I remember she asked about that and just like, hey, she was very upfront about the fact that she’s an introvert and that she was looking for other introverts to be in a group with.

And so I do think that’s important to recognize your energy level. And if you’re more of an extrovert too, do you need to be around other introverts or other extroverts or a mix of the two, but just knowing that is helpful, especially if you’re about to invest in a mastermind or some of high level group, you want to make sure that it’s the right fit for you, especially if you’ve been in groups where it’s not the right fit. That is an important question to ask. And she was, I think, the only person who’s ever asked me that question when interviewing for the Think Tank.

Rob Marsh:  That’s interesting. She also mentioned really reemphasized because we talked about this in the first part of the podcast interview as she was talking about how she builds her authority, she mentioned that doing that as a highly sensitive person, which again is a unique way of describing herself, something I know you relate to Kira, but that mastermind experience being in the right mastermind, a great way to connect, but also the podcasts allow her to connect with amazing people in unique ways.

And again, we talked a little bit about that at the beginning of the episode, but the power of connecting with good, smart, amazing, successful people, either on your own podcast or as a guest on their podcast is huge. And we encourage everybody in our programs to do it. I’m just going to encourage all of our listeners to see that as an opportunity as well.

Kira Hug:  Yeah. I think if you’re a highly sensitive person, you can do really well with podcasting because it’s so intimate and you can pick up on cues and ask deeper questions that you may not be allowed to ask in real life. You can ask for some reason, it’s okay to ask all the questions on podcasts, but when you like, hang-out with that person in real life, it’s not socially acceptable to ask the same questions. So I do think this platform is great for HSCs. Is that a thing HSCs, highly sensitive copywriters?

Rob Marsh:  I wouldn’t know because I’m definitely not one of them.

Kira Hug:  Rob is a highly-

Rob Marsh:  Highly insensitive.

Kira Hug:  You see, highly insensitive copywriter HIC.

Rob Marsh:  That’s right. No feelings.

Kira Hug:  Of being that Rob, I like really, you helped me be more insensitive and I will help you be more sensitive.

Rob Marsh:  That’s right. That’s a good one, two punch, which a highly sensitive person probably wouldn’t say one, two punch. They’d say like a combination of ice cream flavors on the cone or something. Yeah.

Kira Hug:  No. Wouldn’t say that either, but we’ll keep going.

Rob Marsh:  We want to thank Lander Sulser, for joining us for this interview. Be sure to check out her free workshop that she mentioned @landersulser.com/resources, if for some reason that’s too hard to remember. We will add a link to that in the show notes for this episode.

Kira Hug:  And that’s the end of this episode of The Copywriter Club Podcast. The intro music was composed by copywriter and songwriter, Addison Rice. The outro was composed by copywriter and songwriter David Muir. If you liked what you’ve heard at all, even just a little bit, leave a review on Apple podcasts, or you can share the episode with someone you know, who will like it, or you can do both.

Rob Marsh:  Yeah. Definitely do both. And if you want another episode to listen, to check out episode #205, where we talked with copywriter Justin Goff about creating an offer. It’s a really good discussion around offers. We also talked quite a bit about mindset with Justin and episode 266 with Angie Colee, where we talk about making coaching a bigger part of your business. Thanks for listening. We’ll see you next week.

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