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The people and stuff we mentioned on the show:

The Copywriter Think Tank
Kira’s website
Rob’s website
Carline’s website 
Carline’s book
The Copywriter Club Facebook Group
The Copywriter Underground
Our first episode with Carline
Episode 65

Full Transcript:

Rob Marsh:  Back when I worked a real job and I’m putting air quotes around “real”, I used to dread Mondays. In fact, when Sunday afternoon would come along, I’d start getting that feeling of dread in my gut and just really wasn’t looking forward to work. And I think that’s a pretty common thing among people who work regular nine to five jobs. Maybe you felt it yourself in fact. But since switching to copywriting and starting my own business, I can’t recall ever feeling that Sunday dread. And I think that goes away when you truly love what you do. That’s something that we share with our guest for today’s podcast, Carline Anglade-Cole, and as you listen to what she shares, you’d probably agree that Carline is very obvious that she loves what she does. She’s excited about writing, about teaching and about sharing the lessons that she’s learned over her career as a copywriter. I get excited every time I talk to Carline. And I think that you’re going to want to stick around to hear all the great advice that she shares in this episode.

Kira Hug:  Before diving into the interview with Carline, the sponsor for this week’s episode is the Copywriter Think Tank, which is our mastermind and coaching program that helps copywriters dive deeper and really explore ideas they didn’t think were possible, and act on them. And we’re really excited to introduce new coaches inside this mastermind experience. We’ve welcomed a mindset coach and a systems coach into the program so not only do you have our support and our feedback, but these other brilliant coaches in there as well. Linda Perry is the mindset coach and Jonnie Stellar is a systems coach.

And what I’m really excited about right now in the Think Tank is that we are planning our upcoming retreat in Washington, DC, this June. And there’s nothing better than getting this mastermind together in person. We were just together in Nashville, Tennessee for TCCIRL for our retreat there. And I’m excited to host a party at my house in DC for the Think Tank members. So we’re looking forward to that. And if you have any interest in being part of a mastermind, like the Think Tank, you can head over to copyrighterthinktank.com to find out more information.

Rob Marsh:  Yeah. There’s never really been a better time to join the Think Tank than right now. And I’m so excited your parents are going to be out of town and we can have a party at your house. We’ll have the whole high school over.

Kira Hug:  Oh, it feels like that, doesn’t it?

Rob Marsh:  It does. All right. Let’s get to our interview with Carline. Carline, so tell us… So this is not your first time here on the podcast. So we’ve already kind of been through your story and know how you came about and almost really created this career for yourself, but we brought you back because you’re doing some interesting new things in your business over the last couple of years, the books, especially what you’re doing with video, the tribute to Clayton. Let’s talk about all of that stuff. So what’s been going on for the last 12 months or so?

Carline Anglade-Cole:  Thanks, first of all, having me back. Returns and repeat customers are always the best ones, right?

Kira Hug:  Yes.

Carline Anglade-Cole:  So thank you very much. I appreciate it. And then a lot has happened. I mean, when the Clayton tribute really got me going on a little different tangent where I didn’t know I was going to be doing this and I just started kind of going with what was making sense. And so I’m doing a lot more teaching now. Once I had these amazing videos, I had 18 copywriters, marketers, people in the industry coming to share their special experiences of knowing Clayton and working with him, then they gave this amazing tribute and I had this awesome storehouse that I had to do something with. And I ended up… My assistant said, “You know what? Just put it on YouTube for everybody.

Because I didn’t want to sell anything to anyone. I wanted to give this as a gift because Clayton gave us so much as copywriters in the industry, that I felt like everything people were giving, doing that special tribute, it was going to be a gift. So I was not charging anything for it to anybody. So we put it up on YouTube and that kind of became the beginning for me on YouTube because I was not on YouTube. I didn’t know how it worked. I just like, “Eh, nevermind.” And all of a sudden I got these tributes on here and got me going into it. And so now I’m like a YouTube addict, right? I have learned about YouTube and I thought, “Well, I’m going to do this. I’m going to do it. I’m going to go big.” You know? I’m not going to half step anything.

So I decided to put together my YouTube channel, was Carline Cole YouTube channel, where it’s four copywriters aspiring and existing or experienced writers who just want to know what I do, how I do my thing. I just give away my secrets as far as what I feel makes me a successful writer. And then I just have fun with it. I’ve got all kinds of videos, training videos. I’ve got adventure videos because copywriting is not just about sitting at your desk, writing copy. It’s about your whole life. When you become a copywriter, you have gotten control of your life from day one, from that point on, because you can decide how long you’re going to work. You’re going to decide who you’re going to work with, where you’re going to work. All these things are now within your control. So I have that whole Adventures with CopyStar Carline series where it’s like, “Hey guys, come with me. I’m in Africa,” or, “Here I am in Asia.” Or I have one coming out tomorrow of going on a camel safari in the Baja desert.

And it’s just cool fun things. I just went through my family album and pulled out the stuff and then we put together these cool videos. So it’s not just all work and no play. It’s just a fun channel where I want people who may be interested in copywriting to see what it’s like and then get a taste of it and then decide. If this is what you want to do, well, then you gotta step it up and go to the next level and get yourself some training so that you can be good at this in this amazing career that can do a lot of things for your life.

Rob Marsh:  So before we move on and talk about all this stuff, I want to go back to how it all kicked off with the tribute to Clayton. Last time we talked, which was episode, I think, like 189, we actually called the episode, My Life as a 50 Year Old Man. And you told the story of working with Clayton and what an influence he was. And so I just would love; because I think this is an amazing resource… We talk a little bit about the tribute that you did, the people who spoke. We don’t necessarily have to talk about all of the topics because people can go back and watch, but there were some really amazing lessons from that could benefit all copywriters.

Carline Anglade-Cole:  Absolutely, absolutely. That tribute… I’m telling you, someone said to me, “Carline, you could sell this thing for thousands of dollars and they would still be too cheap.” And what was nice was that everyone just came with their personal story, their personal how Clayton touched their lives and then tied it into copywriting. So I recommend if anyone has not seen it yet, this is a way to get to know Clayton Makepeace, the master copywriter that he was through the eyes of his students and his colleagues throughout his 40-plus-year career. I mean, I got Gary Bencivenga to come out of retirement.

Kira Hug:  Oh, wow.

Carline Anglade-Cole:  He came out of retirement because when he heard I was doing it, he’s like, “I’m in, Carline.” And I’m like, “Oh, thank you so much.” And-

Rob Marsh:  Yeah, when I saw Gary, I’m like, “Oh man, he’s like the dream person to come on the podcast.” Right? And he doesn’t do it for anybody. You and I think Brian Kurtz are about the only people who’ve ever gotten him out of retirement. That is amazing.

Carline Anglade-Cole:  And the thing is, Brian had to ask Gary to come out of retirement. Gary asked me.

Rob Marsh:  There you go.

Carline Anglade-Cole:  So I was teased about that, but no, it was just… It was that type of an environment, where everyone was just willing to give. And so, like I said, if you missed it, you can go check it out. And next month will be two years since Clayton’s been gone. And that’s still getting lots of hits on that, on those videos because it’s… We got really awesome people and I chose… I had to limit to 18. I mean, I could have gone to 180 easily, but I didn’t have enough time, so I just picked the people that I personally knew that Clayton knew and was an influence on them. He was an influence on them, but that could have been so many more people that fit that category. I just did not have enough time or space.

But the ones that I got, I mean, like I said, besides Gary Bencivenga, having Brian Kurtz on board, having Bob Bly. Bob was like, awesome. He was the first one to say, “I’m in Carline. If you’re doing this for Clayton, I am in whatever you need.” So the AWAI’s community supported it. I even had young… My daughters came because I know what Clayton did to them and their career, how he helped them. And so graphic designers like Lori Haller. And I mean, it was just so many people, Cindy Butehorn came in on the marketing side of it because she and Clayton had a great relationship that many people didn’t know about, but it was just something where Clayton touched the lives of so many of us in so many different ways, not just writing copy, but he was an expert marketer, so he could help strategize, mail plans or launches. And so I brought people who were all part of those things and to just kind of showcase what Clayton really meant to them.

So, yep. That was it. So My Life as a 50-plus-year White Male came from the fact that Clayton Makepeace took me under his wings and taught me the art of copywriting. And who were we talking to? We were always talking to 50-plus-year old white men. And that was always the market that I wrote for and I realized, “Wow, these are my peeps. I understand them. They know me.” And it’s given me a wonderful career. 22 years of being a freelance writer and then another 12 years beyond that is being in the industry. So 34 years, that’s a pretty nice career to have and enjoyed it also.

Kira Hug:  And I know we want to dive into your most recent book and we will, but before we started recording, you were talked about how much fun you’re having just kicking off different projects and experimenting and how copywriting has allowed you to pursue these different projects. And so could you just speak to that and what copywriting has allowed you to do that may have surprised you over the years, over the 34 years, just to give an idea to the listeners of what’s possible for all of us?

Carline Anglade-Cole:  Well, I knew that travel would always be a part of my life. I have always been someone who just loved to go places, but I know I would not have gone to the types of places for the length of time that I’ve been able to stay there, if it really wasn’t for a job that gave me the flexibility that copywriting gave me. I mean, I have been through… I can’t say all continents, because I have not been to Antarctica, not yet, but to be able to go and take off and go on an African safari. We’ve gone to South Africa, not just for a week or two. We’re talking about going there for four weeks and longer, some of these places and not missing a beat when it comes to work. I either decide I’m taking off with a month or I’m going to work on the project while I’m there. It doesn’t matter. Just whatever… I have that flexibility to do it.

So I would say first and foremost, the opportunity to travel and to meet so many amazing people from all over the world is something that copywriting has allowed me to do both because of my freedom of time and also with my finances, because these are not cheap trips, you know? So you’re going to… You’re dropping some money to go flying all across the world to do it and that’s something that copywriting has allowed me to do.

And as I’ve matured and I’m realizing I want to have some fun and kind of give back a lot of ways, my YouTube channel’s one of the things I was telling you about earlier, that’s something that’s allowed me to have a lot of fun doing it. I just launched just a few weeks ago. I had this crazy idea. And so I told my team, it’s like, “We need to have a store, just our own direct response copywriter store that’s just for us.” And I was stealing the whole FUBU idea, for you, by you. I said, but for us, by us, and came up with the idea of Magalart, which was taking my magalogs, my covers, my cover test and converting them into artwork. And so I thought that’s a cool name. We’ll call it Magalart.

And then in addition, I’m like, “I got some funky, cool things like mugs and magnets, and t-shirts. They say things… Like my second book, the title of that book is Your Copy Sucks. You don’t. So I got t-shirts that say that, magnets and stuff. And it’s kind of neat when people are sending me photos of them wearing this stuff that I’m like, “Oh, my gosh, that is so cool.” And it’s just fun. It’s like, am I making a career out of selling mugs and t-shirts? No, but I just think it’s so nice to be able to have a place where you’ve got a copywriter in your life, you can say, “Let me Google copywriting gifts here,” and then Magalart pops up. So it’s Magalart, M-A-G-A-L-A-R-T .shop.

That’s all right now. We haven’t even started expanding it too much, but that’s where people are able to find stuff. And then what’s nice is they’re sending me photos of them holding the mug or wearing the t-shirt, just… It’s just kind of fun stuff. So that’s what I’ve got going on right now. I also do my… I have mentoring. I do work and I train with my C.R.A.Z.Y Copy System Live Mentoring Show. That’s more of a online one-on-one, but not one-on-one, it’s a group setting, but it’s more earn while you learn mentoring program that I launched over a year ago and having so much fun with it.

And my whole thing is, “Hey guys, I’m doing this until I don’t like it anymore and when I don’t like it anymore, I’m done.” So that’s the best attitude. Like, take me while you got me because when I say I’m done, I’m done. So that’s been-

Rob Marsh:  It’s a good motto.

Carline Anglade-Cole:  I’ve gotten a couple dozen writers to… They actually got samples. They got their samples tested with my clients. They got paid because their covers beat my control. So they get to not only get paid, but they get a t-shirt that says, “I’m on a roll. I beat Carline’s control.” You can’t buy that t-shirt. You got to earn it. You got to earn it. So just fun things like that. I decided this year I’m going to continue. I’m still working with my clients, but I’ll cut back my writing schedule a lot so I can devote my time to just seeing what I want to do. And I can help a lot of folks right now. So as I’m winding down my career.

Rob Marsh:  Yeah, well, that’s the thing I love about what you’re doing, Carline, is that you’ve spent so much time proving that you know what you know, and learning and doing, and now you’re taking all the time to share. And the various ways that you’re sharing, the YouTube channel, the books, the one-on-one, or group coaching. All of that comes from all of the work that you’ve done.

And so I’ve got questions about each one of those things individually, for sure. One more question about YouTube before we move on to other stuff. And that is a lot of copywriters want to be on YouTube or create a channel for YouTube, and it’s a lot of work. Not only do you have to come up with the content, you’ve got to be the onscreen talent, you’ve got to promote. And if I’m not mistaken, you’ve had some help with that. In fact, I think one of your daughters has helped you significantly, but maybe even a bigger team. Will you tell us about the team and what they’re all doing in order to make that happen for you?

Carline Anglade-Cole:  Absolutely, yeah. There’s no way I could do this without my team. And the fact that none of us knew what we were doing didn’t matter. It was like, “Let’s go ahead and do this.” So YouTube has been a lot of fun and you can enjoy it as long as you’re doing what you like to do. I mean, don’t go on YouTube saying, “Oh, I’m going to create a product. I’m going to create this. I’m going to make X amount of from that,” and that’s the goal. Go on and say, “Hey, I’ve got something I want to share. I think it’s valuable to people, but if they don’t think so, I think it is.” And I’m going to put it on there. So you create your channel for you, first and foremost. Really think about what would I want to see if I was looking at this channel and what would I want to have on here?

So if you go at it that way, then it’s much more fun and you’ll come up with more ideas of what you want to actually have. Now, I do the videos. I mean, I go up and I come up with ideas for videos all the time. And all I do is use my iPhone. I don’t do anything fancy. Stay vertical on your iPhone. That gives you options of creating YouTube shorts, which are just one minute or less videos that YouTube loves now they’re competing against TikTok. So you can do a YouTube short, nothing fancy, just go ahead and just record it and then upload it. So I’ll do my videos vertical like that.

I hired a young guy. Who’s just… You know, these kids know how to do all kinds of stuff on YouTube. So I’m like, “Look, I’m looking for somebody to take these videos and put them on YouTube for me. And then I’ll work with you on putting together the thumbnails, but get it up there for me.” So I got somebody working part-time and that’s what he does. That’s what his job is. I just send him the videos and he puts them up there for me. My assistant, Cynthia, has been great. She’ll help put things together, whatever we need. I write the copy because it’s fun and it’s faster for me to write it because I know what I’m saying. But it’s kind of after that, whatever you don’t know on YouTube, you just go on YouTube and google it. That’s what you do. That’s what we did.

Like, for example, for YouTube to take you seriously, you need to have a thousand subscribers, okay? So it’s like, okay, how do you do that? Well, I have my mailing list. So I went to my mailing list and I said, “Hey guys, I need you to subscribe to my YouTube channel.” And that kind of got me… I have a little unfair advantage because I do have access to that, but you can get your friends or whoever else, the people who know you have it. And that’s how I got my thousand subscribers as quickly as I did. But then I was like, “Oh no. Now you need to have…” To be monetized on YouTube, you have to have 4,000 watch hours. All right? And I’m at that point, I was just trudging along and it’s like, “Okay, I need 4,000.” I was about 2000 at the time and if I was going the same pace as I was doing, then it would take another year to get there.

And I’m like, “I’m not waiting a whole year for that.” So I just sent out an email blast and told my friends and my family and my CopyStar readers, I’m like, “Hey guys, I’m trying to get to 4,000 watch hours on YouTube for them to take me seriously so that the channel can be monetized for advertisements. So please, just watch my channel. Just watch it for me. Just click on it and watch.” And in a matter of, I think it was 18 days, we doubled to 4,000. And I’m like, “Oh, that’s nice.” So now YouTube says, “We acknowledge you as having a thousand subscribers and you are at 4,000 watch hours. So we think you’re legit enough for us to pay attention to you.” And once that happened, now it’s like it starts opening doors for you to do other things, but you know, the advertising revenue, it’s not tons of money, but it could be a couple thousand, several thousand dollars in a year of revenue just by having your videos up there.

And then you start using your copywriting skills, okay? So they talk about YouTube calls it a thumbnail, right? But for us copywriters, it’s just your cover. It’s just a cover. So you want to get a thumbnail that attracts people’s attention. You do the same thing with your cover. So just take your copywriting skills and apply them to your thumbnails. And don’t forget about the description copy that you have with every video. There’s room for description copy. Treat that like your lead. That’s your chance for you to really grab the attention of what the video’s about. And it’s also a chance for YouTube to scan their algorithms to find out what’s in the video and we want to push the video. Right? So I was just using a lot of basic copywriting skills that have just now just translated into being part of the YouTube community.

So once I got over the hurdle of the new terminology, the thumbnail and the description copy, and then the other things you’re talking about, I’m going, “What is all that?” Once I equated that with, oh, cover, headline, lead… I got this. Once I made that click in my brain, then it was like, “You know what? Just use your copywriting skills and put it on there. And that is what I’ve done. And I do regularly just google, how to do this? What should I be looking for, to give me some help with it? But for the most part I’m telling you, we’re doing great. I think before we hit… Well, one year on YouTube, I think at the end of March, and we’re going to have over a hundred thousand impressions by then. And I’m like, “That’s a lot.”

And we’re a little small, a little pea. We’ve got about 20, 2100 subscribers right now. And so I had got the whole idea of doing merchandise, like the magalart.shop store. I have that, but I realized, “Oh shoot, we can’t put our merchandise on YouTube until we have 10,000 subscribers.” So hey, subscribe to my channel, help me get to 10,000 subscribers. But it may take a while, but that’s okay, I’ll get there. And now we’re seeing YouTube has been picking up the videos organically and we’re like, “Wow.” One video hit like 40,000 impressions. I’m going, “What the heck? That’s a lot.” Considering my other ones were only doing about two to 5,000. So I’m just starting to see where YouTube is making it serious.

But if you’re going to do this, you got to, first of all, realize you’re going to need at least a year to get yourself going. So don’t expect miracles in that first year, because it will take a while for you to get it going and for the algorithms to really pick up on your videos and push them to where they need to go. But I mean, that’s what I was told before I started. And I saw that. So don’t get discouraged, just put out good content. Don’t put junk out there. Put quality things that you would like to spend time watching if you were the viewer. And that’s my secret. That’s my strategy on making it on YouTube. And like I said, I’ve got over 200, 250. This week we’ll be over 250 videos. And I can’t believe it. I can’t believe it, but I’m like, “Hey guys, we’re going to do one video a day. Let’s see if we can make that happen.” And so far we’re on track.

Kira Hug:  That’s incredible.

Rob Marsh:  Kira, I’m going to interrupt your comment to Carline as we break in here to talk a little bit about what stood out in the first half of the interview. So I’ve got a couple of things that I’ve written down, but do you want to go first?

Kira Hug:  I can’t believe you interrupted me. No, that’s okay. I do want to… I’m glad you interrupted me because I want to talk about… There was so much in this part of the interview around doing something new or different and Carline did that with her tribute to Clayton Makepeace, and that allowed her to do something new and different and maybe even uncomfortable, although I don’t think she said it was uncomfortable, by creating this YouTube channel and launching these tribute videos to Clayton. But it allowed her to play in a different medium and to explore and have fun with YouTube. And it’s always helpful when you have a reason outside of yourself to do something. And I think for Carline, it was her relationship with Clayton and wanting to do this for him and for the copywriting community. And so it was a great catalyst for her to try something new.

You don’t always need some outside purpose to do something new, but I think it’s just a good reminder that anytime you get a little uncomfortable and do something you haven’t tried before, there’s a ripple effect. And for Carline, the ripple effect was she realized she liked YouTube and she continued to experiment and post content. And now she’s already a year into it. And it’s been a really big part of her growth and the pivot she’s made in her business. And she wouldn’t have known that if she didn’t decide to do this tribute for Clayton.

Rob Marsh:  Yeah. Anybody who hasn’t checked out the tribute, it’s definitely worth watching the interviews. She features people like Brian Kurtz, Marcella Allison, and David Deutch. My absolute favorite is when Gary Bencivenga shares his 10 maxims. Anytime Gary does something, I try to pay attention. I’ve seen his training. I’ve watched what he presented in Brian Kurtz’s Titans Mastermind. And yeah, I respect and love everything that he does. So it’s definitely worth checking that out. If you only check out one, check out Gary’s, but there are a bunch that are definitely worth watching. And, like you, I’m really impressed because yeah, that helps Carline kick off her YouTube channel. But everything that I’ve heard about YouTube is that you really don’t start getting traction until you’ve posted 200 and… something like 225 videos, 230 videos, and it’s a long game and she’s done a really amazing job of speeding that process up.

Yeah. She now has that many videos, which is great, but she’s got something like 2,500 followers. Every time she posts, she’s got three or 400 views within a few hours. And obviously when you start having that kind of success, YouTube then starts to share your videos with the whole world of YouTube, or at least the copywriting world that’s on YouTube. And it’s helped her grow her list. It helped give her a foundation so when she launched her second book, there’s even more potential readers out there. I’m actually kind of jealous of it because you and I have talked about doing YouTube for a while and what would be the best way for us to do something on YouTube. Maybe we’d take podcasts. There are all kinds of different things that we could do, but she has taken action and just made it happen. And I respect it and I love what she’s doing there.

Kira Hug:  And a cool part about that is she’s been able to grow quickly because I mean, number one, she’s Carline and she’s awesome and a go-getter, goes fully in when she does anything, but also she asks for what she wants. And I think that was a lesson I took away from this conversation is just ask for what you need, ask for what you want. She sent emails, asking her list to subscribe to her YouTube channel. And then when she realized that she needed to have, I think four thousand watch hours, she followed up and asked them, “Hey, can you actually go watch and spend some time in the YouTube channel so I can hit this goal?” And it’s just a great reminder to again, ask for what you want and need because you’re not going to get it if you don’t ask for it and also bring people on the journey with you.

And so for Carline, she’s taking her community and everyone who’s a fan, colleague, friend with her on this YouTube journey and sharing the milestones and being really transparent about like, “Hey, I need this in order to hit this goal. Will you help me?” So people are more likely to buy in and participate and support you if you take them along the journey and paint the picture of where you’re going and give them a concrete goal that they can be a part of rather than leaving it vague so people don’t really understand how they’re showing up and how they can help you.

Rob Marsh:  Yeah. And one of the things that I love about that is that because Carline is so engaging and so energetic, when she makes those kinds of invitations, of course you want to hang out with her, you want to see more of it. And so, because she’s leaning all the way into it with all of her personality, everything that she has, it really works for her. The other thing, as she was describing the different things that she was doing on YouTube, it made me realize that there’s really nothing new in the world of marketing. You know, she was talking about the thumbnail is just the cover image and headline and the description of each video is like the lead on a sales page or a sales letter. And it’s just a reminder that yes, the formats change, it may not be a number 10 envelope going out into the mail, like she would’ve written in the 1990s. It’s a YouTube video here in the 2020s, but the elements are pretty much the same and the same persuasion tactics, the same level of engagement, the same things that you do to get people to engage with copy in other mediums works here too. You just have to figure out the connections and I love that.

Kira Hug:  Yeah. And to go back to what you were saying about her enthusiasm. People want to just want to be a part of it because she’s so enthusiastic about what she’s doing. That traces back to fun. And that stood out to me when we were in this interview with Carline and then listening to the interview again. It stood out to me. Maybe it’s because when I’m thinking about what I value in life, I do value fun, but I have not prioritized it in my life. So I feel like at a scale one through 10, my score is probably like a three right now. So it’s something that I am focused on and when I hear someone talk about it, I pay attention. And Carline mentioned fun in this interview. I was tallying how many times she mentioned it, at least 12 times she mentioned fun. And so clearly that’s something that she values right now. And she is actively pulling fun into her business and her life. And that’s something that, again, we can all do at different stages, if it’s something that we do value.

Rob Marsh:  Yeah. And you mentioned in our introduction that we’re having a party at your house this June. That’s going to be fun. So hopefully we don’t have to wait-

Kira Hug:  I hope so.

Rob Marsh:  … until June to have some fun in our business. But yeah, doing things like that in your business to have fun, and it can be with clients, it can be with fellow copywriters. As we record this, we just finished up IRL in Nashville, where we were hanging out with 150 or so copywriters. And that was a ton of fun just being around other people, going to dinner, talking, chatting. And so finding those opportunities to have fun. And again, it doesn’t have to be with other people. It can just be because you love what you’re doing. You love the way that you’re engaging with your audience. Carline’s done that well. And it’s definitely something that we can all take away from that.

Kira Hug:  Okay, so maybe my fun score is actually better than I think, because you’re right. We did have fun at IRL and I’m actually… I’ve mentioned this to you already, I’m throwing a party tonight. I feel like this podcast is just me talking about parties I’m throwing, but that’s happens two years after a pandemic and no social contact. I’m ready to throw some parties. So I’m traveling to Boston this weekend and then I have vacation next week. So yeah, I think my fun score is actually a five out of 10 and maybe not as low as I thought, but again, that’s just something that Carline brings to everything she’s doing right now. I think she had a quote about… This was the quote, “Hey guys, I’m doing this until I don’t like it anymore.” And she was speaking about one of her mentoring programs in reference to that quote.

And again, I love that perspective of I don’t have to stick with something if it doesn’t work for me anymore. And Carline is working on less copywriting projects now and venturing into new territories. And I just was really inspired by this interview of how she’s open and intentionally creating space by taking on less copywriting projects so that she’s had this space to play and to say yes, and to write two books over the last few years and to create the YouTube channel and so many more opportunities. I mean, she mentioned the merchandise too, and there’s just this element of space and opportunity in what she’s done, but that doesn’t happen by accident. It happens when you decide this isn’t working for me, I’m not going to do it anymore. And that’s something that I think a lot of copywriters struggle with. I’ve struggled with it. I mean, I think I’m always working through that too. Knowing when to pivot, knowing when to say this doesn’t work. It did work. It doesn’t work anymore.

Rob Marsh:  For sure. One other thing that I want to mention just from this beginning portion of the interview is Carline mentioned that she’s been able to do a lot of stuff thanks to the success she’s had as a copywriter. She mentioned taking real vacations, like three weeks, four weeks long, and having the space to do that. And I think there’s definitely a point in our businesses where we have to decide, okay, are we creating a business that’s supporting the things outside of our lives that we want to do. And if we are, how do we do that? How do we build in time for real vacations for more than a day off or more than a weekend? And she’s done that really well, but it’s just a really good reminder that our businesses are here to support the lives we want. And if we get good at what we do and in solving our clients problems, all those things become a reality.

Kira Hug:  Yeah, and that’s how she kicked off the entire conversation by sharing that she’s grateful for this amazing career that’s allowed her to do so much in her life and that she wants to share that message so we can all live that way too. And I think she mentioned 22 years as a freelance writer, 12 years working in industry, 34 years total in her career, she’s been able to see firsthand what writing copy can do for your whole life. And I think anytime I hear that message, it’s really inspiring to me as well, to just know that this is a career that can go many different places and give us a lot of different opportunities. And Carline is such a great example of that.

All right, let’s get back to our interview with Carline and listen to her advice for pivoting and shifting gears in your business. As I’m listening to you speak about what you’re doing on YouTube and the merchandise and how you’re just having so much fun, you said, “When I’m done, I’m done.” It seems like you know when to move on. And I’m just wondering if that is who you’ve always been, and that just comes naturally to you, and if you have any advice for anyone listening, who maybe feels stuck and struggles to move on and to know when they’re done and they need to evolve in their career, what advice you’d give to them?

Carline Anglade-Cole:  My advice would be if you are stuck and if you don’t let go, if you don’t shift gears, you’re not going to ever know what else is available for you. You’ve only got so much time and space and if you are crowded out with stuff that you don’t want to do, there’s no room to take in something else. So when I say I’m like, “You know what? I’m not having fun anymore doing this. I’m going to let it go.” And by doing that, it opens up opportunities for me to do other things. Like, I was… I love writing copy. I mean, I have a record of writing one package a month. I’m talking a full blown magalog, 24 pages printed, finished and everything else, which is like 50 pages I’m turning in to the client doing one a month.

I’ve done 12 to 16 in a year. All right? That’s when I was loving copywriting, I was loving. I was learning so much. And I’m just like, give it to me, give it to me, give it to me, give it to me. I love it. Right? Well, I don’t want to do that anymore. I don’t want to be at that pace. I loved it then because it was fun and exciting. It’s not fun and exciting anymore. And then when I started feeling like, oh, this is not… I don’t want to tie myself down like this so I started cutting back my schedule. As I cut back my schedule, it was a little scary going, “What’s lined up for next month?” And I’m like, “Nothing. What? Nothing.” And then guess what? Something pops up. And it’s something that I wasn’t expecting, but because I had the opportunity and the time it happens.

Perfect example was COVID changed our lives. At one point I was in there, I was sitting there going, “I’ve always wanted to write a book, but instead I’m sitting here binging on Gilmore Girls and other movie, shows I haven’t watched in forever.” And it’s like, “What are you doing? Stop. Go. You got time now. Go write your book. Go do it.” And so I had wanted to do it. It was February in 2020 when I wanted to do my book. COVID comes in March. I gave myself a year to get the book done, but with COVID, got the book done and got the book published and got it all done in less than like five and a half months. So just kind of re-channel yourself. So if you don’t love what you’re doing, it’s time to stop.

I know it’s scary, but you gotta stop and find something else. Because if you keep staying with that grind, you will not have the other opportunities come to you, or you go to them because you don’t have the time or the space in your life. So when I said, I want to do my book and I got the book done and I loved it, and I thought, “I’m done. I’m done.” And then I thought, “No, I’m not going to book my schedule tight next year. I’m going to only write six packages for 2021. I’m only going to write six packages, which meant I had six months kind of available. So I used that time to write a second book. And that was fun. Am I doing a third book? I don’t think so. I don’t think so, but who knows? I’m not planning on it, but I got two books done in 16 months, and I got two awards for the first book, acknowledged awards for my work. I got it on the Amazon bestseller list.

So you can’t do stuff that you… You can’t do everything. So at some point you gotta let go. And I felt like I’ve kind of… I know I’m good, what I do. I know I’m good in the health market. I know I’m a good copywriter. I don’t have to prove anything to anybody else, but I don’t know if I’m a good writer as far as an author. I don’t know if I’m a good teacher. Let me go see if I’m good at that. And that became more of a challenge for me and even the merchandise store. I don’t know, let’s see what happens. Let’s see. Let’s try it. And I’m just very happy to be in a position where I can do those things and if it doesn’t work well, okay. You know what? It’s not that it didn’t work. It’s just not the right thing for me right now. And that’s how you just reposition it and keep going. So that’s kind of what I say to people who are stuck. It’s like, “You got to get yourself unstuck, and you got to get over the fear, and you gotta put yourself in a situation where avenues and opportunities can open up to you.”

Rob Marsh:  That’s a great lead in maybe to talking a little bit about your new book, Carline. So when I picked it up, I was expecting maybe something about copywriting, how am I going to improve my copy? And I was a little bit surprised, but also pleased that this is not necessarily a book about copywriting. It’s really a book of life lessons, mindset advice, all kinds of lessons that you’ve learned, I think, over your career. Are there maybe three or four of those that are your favorites that you can share with us?

Carline Anglade-Cole:  Sure. Well, yeah, my favorite one is the headline and there’s a title of the book. I’m glad you saw that because the whole point, if you see the… The name of the book is Your Copy Sucks – You don’t! But then the subhead is 60 Kick-Butt Lessons on Copywriting… Business… and Life! And so I chose 60, the number 60, because I wrote it when I turned 60. That was a year I was like, oh man, I was in 2021, I turned 60 and I’m going, “I got to do something.” Like, “This is kind of cool.” So I picked 60 as opposed to any other number. That’s why I have the 60, but then I thought, “I want to share a lesson.” I could give you a thousand lessons that I’ve learned in my lifetime, but I wanted to use lessons that I felt like would work. That same lesson could work for copywriting for business and for life. All right?

And so in other words, I talk about parenting. One of my favorite ones, and I guess one of the ones most people tell me they love on my book is when I talk about the fun. The first day you have a… The moment your child is born, open up a therapy fund for them, the moment that they’re born. So people joke about that. And they’re like, “What’s with the therapy? That’s crazy. Why would you say that, whatever it is? And it’s all about saying, “You know what? You’re going to have children. You’re going to make mistakes when you raise them, because you’re imperfect. Don’t let that jack you up. Okay? It is what it is.”

I think it was lesson number 25. No, no, no. That’s my exercise therapy. I forgot which one… I got to find out which one is the therapy fund one. But anyway, it’s like you’re imperfect, you want to do the best that you can for your kids, but you’re going to screw up at some point, in some way, in somehow, and that’s okay because you’re imperfect. But don’t let that deprive you from having the enjoyment of being a parent. Because even if you think you did a fantastic job, like I said, I hear my children talk about their childhood and I was there and I thought they had a fantastic childhood. I said my kids would write the most boring… would have the most boring lifetime movie. And I’m very proud about that because it was not… that drama wasn’t there, that a lot of people can experience.

So I’m very happy that they couldn’t make a great lifetime movie about their childhoods, but they talk about things that I’m going, “That’s not what happened. That is not what it was.” But they’re seeing things from their perspective, and I have to respect that, but I’m like, “No, you had a great childhood. This was wonderful. It was wonderful.” So again, the point is, as a parent, you’re going to mess up. So get that therapy fund open, enjoy raising your kids. If you didn’t do something or you did something they need therapy for, then have them tap into that therapy fund and there they go. There you go. You can take care of that part. So a lot of parents, new parents tell me about that when they say that was such a good relief for me, because it’s like the whole, “Am I screwing up my kid?”

No, don’t worry. Do your best that you can. But if you do screw them up somehow give them a therapy fund that they can go to and help them out when they’re adults. So that has been one. But if you’re not a parent, you can apply that to anyone in the family. You can apply that to helping people in the family who may need support. It could be for your business. How do you help and support other people who you work with as you’re helping to nurture them in their growth, in their businesses and careers. So that’s what I mean when I say I try to use something that can kind of cross over into all three copywriting, business, and life.

But my absolute favorite one is that’s the number 34, which is the title of the book, your copy sucks, you don’t. And that’s because when I do my mentoring… When I do copy crits, I do go really hard, and I zone into the copy and I’m just looking to make the copy as good as it possibly can. So I’ll say things like that, like, “What are you thinking? This is ridiculous. Change that. Fix that. You’ve lost your market.” Those kinds of things I will say, and I learned that from Clayton Makepeace because he was my copy chief and he tore apart my copy. But whenever he tore apart my copy and we rebuilt it, I got controls. Okay? So I know that this is a process that works.

So I always, before I start with the critiques with my C.R.A.Z.Y Copy System Live Mentoring Show tribe, I have them repeat after me, “You’re awesome. You’re wonderful. Your copy sucks, you don’t. Okay? So don’t take anything personal that I’m going to say here. Just focus on the copy itself and then that’s how it’s going to become successful for you.” So we do that, but the whole, “Your copy sucks, you don’t,” is really a mantra for life. Things are going to happen. Bad things are going to happen to you. It’s not because you’re a bad person. It’s because stuff happens. So it’s not what happens to you, but what you do with what happens to you that’s going to determine your happiness and your joy in your life.

And so that became kind of a mantra for life. “Your copy sucks, you don’t,” that’s kind of, “Stuff happens.” If your kids do something and you’re not happy they get in trouble, well, you’re not a bad parent. It just happens that they did something wrong. Don’t take it and go, “Where did I go wrong? I should have nursed for an extra three months,” or something. No. Lay off that guilt. But same thing with business, you try a business and it doesn’t work, doesn’t mean you’re a failure. It means that idea didn’t work at that time. And in life in general, whatever you try and attempt, not everything will be successful. You want failures because failures allow you to push yourself beyond your comfort zone. So if you’re not failing enough, you’re not trying enough. So that’s my favorite lesson on that one because it is really my life mantra in so many ways.

Kira Hug:  Yeah. I really like lesson 10, I believe, which is about buying yourself flowers. That is one I can relate to. I buy myself flowers all the time, especially for my children’s birthdays. I’m like, “This is when I delivered you. I’m going to treat myself.” And then I also really like lesson 35 about me time, and filling up your cup. So can you talk a little bit more about how you give yourself “me” time and how you fill your cup up? I know this is a struggle for so many copywriters.

Carline Anglade-Cole:  Right. And not only copywriters, but especially with women, we tend to… We are always working and helping other people. We’re more than willing to give our time to other people. We put ourselves way, way last. And in turn we end up being drained. So the illustration I used with the your “me” time was to imagine that you’re a glass pitcher and it’s full of red punch, right? The pitcher’s full of red punch. That represents you and all that you have to give in your life. And then you put little glass cups all around the pitcher and the glass cups represent the important people or things in your life. So whether it’s your spouse, your children, your church, your neighborhood, your job, your friendships, whatever is important to you, doesn’t matter. Whatever you view as being important, you put those little glass cups all around your pitcher, and now you start pouring into each glass cup.

And you can pour more or less depending on what the value for that is to you. But it’s okay. But you keep pouring. You keep pouring and if you keep pouring… So what eventually happens? Your pitcher is empty. You got nothing else to give. So when that happens, all of the little glasses around you are going to now suffer, because you can’t do anything. You can’t give anything. You’re wiped out. So what you have to do is refresh your pitcher periodically and how you do that is very unique to you. Once upon a time for me to refresh my picture, it meant just going and getting a manicure and a pedicure and a massage. And when I did that, I just felt so good. And I’m like, “OK, I can give more now.”

Maybe it could be going on a trip. Maybe it’s buying yourself something that you’ve wanted as a gift. Flowers are great also. So whatever it is, it doesn’t even have to be expensive. It just has to be what is important to you. Maybe it’s just an afternoon where you can just read your favorite book, or go off to a movie with girlfriends and have dinner and have fun and whatever it is that refreshes and refills your pitcher is what you have to determine. And then you have to do it often so that the picture can stay full, and in turn you can give, and you can give with value, and you can give with heart and creativity and everything else because you got it. You got it.

If you’re drained, you ain’t got it. So it’s like, find out what it is that you need. Travel always refreshes my pitcher, but I haven’t been traveling for the past almost two years now. I’m not going to that many places. So it’s like, what else would I find that makes me feel good? So going and talking, hanging out with my mom for an afternoon and we’re just sitting there talking, I feel good about that. I love it. It’s enjoyable. Calling up my friends, doing my Zoom calls with people I hadn’t talked to in a long time. Writing, writing about this fun stuff, that refreshes my pitcher. So I do those things on a regular basis too, so that I have the energy to be able to give to others.

Rob Marsh:  Yeah. I love it. My favorite chapter… It’s hard to pick one, but my favorite thing that you write about is lesson number 60. And that is where you say, “You’re not a superwoman, but you play one in life.” And I think anybody who’s just been listening to you talk about all the things that you’re doing, 60 plus, accomplished, copywriter, starting all these new projects and you definitely do come across as a superwoman. You’re doing a great job of filling the role, Carline.

Carline Anglade-Cole:  Well, thank you. Thank you, but like I… And in lesson number 60, I say, “There is no “S” on my chest. If there was, it would stand for scarred, scared and so tired.” So that would be… It’s sort of, you don’t have to be superwoman. The reason I’m able to do the things that I have accomplished in my life is because I have a great support system. And that is… So put people in your life who love you, who want to help you and encourage you and can punch you and get you going if you need to, get your butt out of bed or whatever. By having that in your life, then you can accomplish a lot.

But it’s; I’m never alone. I do not stand on any kind of pedestal by myself. I am in a team because I know for a fact, I have my husband, I have my friends, I have my congregation, and I have my colleagues. These are all people who I say, “Hey, I’ve got an idea.” And like, with the YouTube channel, I have a… “Let’s do this,” but I can’t do it by myself. I have people who are helping me along the way to make it happen. I can do the vision about here’s how I see this, and I can give directions and guidance, but I can’t do it alone. And so you have those people in your life and you reward those people because I’m very much a, hey, let’s do this together. And however successful it is, we are successful. It’s like, if this is working, this is a joint thing. If this makes X amount of money, then we make X amount of money. We’re going to do this together because it’s an opportunity for people to be able to use their talents and time and be rewarded for it.

So that’s kind of how we look at things that we do and we do it. So even with my book, my two books, I had… I work with an editor. Laura Gale was my editor for the book. And she was amazing because I knew what I wanted. The first book, when I met Laura and she said, “Are you serious about writing this book?” I’m like, “I am so serious. I know the title of the book. I know the chapters in the… I know what I want to say. I just have not gotten myself to the point of doing it and whatnot. And so she goes, “Well, I can help you with that.” So I give Laura Gale a lot of credit for helping me with my books, because she… I just sort of had diarrhea of the mouth with everything and then she helped me to organize the book and to structure it so that it would make sense, to get it done. So I didn’t do it by myself.

The Magalart store. I had the idea, but I have my assistant Maria, going, “Okay, Maria, go for it. Let’s see what we can do here. Let’s create some stuff.” Then I have Benji, like, “What kind of artwork can we do? How do we do this?” And so it’s like that’s our team. When I do my show, my C.R.A.Z.Y mentoring show, my daughter, Tiara, she’s my producer. She’s like, “Mom, we’re going to do this today.” I’m like, “I got it. Okay, great. Great.” So I know what’s got to be done, but somebody’s helping. So there’s never… Superman… Superwoman does not exist. I have a super team and we kick butt.

Rob Marsh:  While we have you here, you’re such a good copywriter, we like to talk about copywriting, I want to ask you a copy focused question as well. And one of the things that you’re doing with the mentoring, teaching one-on-one and teaching one on group, tell me what is the number one thing, the number one mistake that you see copywriters making in their copy when they bring it to you for critiques, for feedback, that kind of thing?

Carline Anglade-Cole:  You only want one?

Rob Marsh:  Well, I don’t know if we’ve got time for how many… I know I’d love to have 30, but, yeah.

Carline Anglade-Cole:  I can think of a couple off top of my head. Okay. When copy comes to me and is using the words “we” and “our”, I cringe. I absolutely cringe. Because I tell my cubs all the time, copywriting is a conversation in print. It is a one-on-one conversation. So you talk to me and you talk about you, not we, not our, okay? In this case, it is very you-centric copy. So I get a lot of first drafts where it’s like, “We want to do this for you,” and “we this” and “we”… I’m like, no, no, no, no, no, no, no. You. Who is speaking? Letter’s being signed by one person. Who’s that person signing it? And then talk to that person one on one, have that conversation.

So I think that would be one of the ones where… And I tell them all the time. I say, “When I was trying to see what promotions I wanted to work on or what I…” Let’s say there was a control out there, I had maybe two or three options of what I wanted to work on. And the client says, “Will you pick the one you want to work on?” I would look at that copy and if I saw the promo say something, like use the word we, or say, “Dear friends, plural, if they did anything like that, that was the control I was going after. It was like instinct, like, “Bam, I’m going to kill this thing.” Because they’re doing that from the start, the copy’s already weak in my perspective. So I’m going to write you-centric copy, and I’m going to slam that thing. And I usually do. I usually do, because it’s… You get into a mode when you’re writing to a group that is very less… It’s not as personal as I’m writing to you Kira or to you Rob. It’s just a natural flow of things that happen that way.

And so that’s one thing. And then the other thing I tell them is to know who you’re talking to. So you’re not talking to a crowd. So I’m talking to you. Who is that avatar? Am I talking to a 50-plus-year old, white male? That’s nice. Put a face on them. That’s my neighbor. That’s my cousin. That’s my brother. That’s my husband. That’s my so and so. Whatever. Put a face. And I used to do that when I was early in my career. I would get a picture of the person that I felt I was talking to when I was writing a copy. And I would even use his name or her name in the copy when I was writing it. And then at the end I would change it out. But that would make me know I’m talking to this person. Is it my mother? Okay, dear mom, and start talking to my mom, like I would talk to her if she was in a room with me right now. And that will get you out of generic mode copywriting to just suck you into personal letter writing. And if you can do that, you’re going to be way ahead of the game before anybody else.

Kira Hug:  Carline, we want to make sure we can share your book and all the information about the book with our audience. And so you mentioned a couple gifts that we can access with the purchase of your book. Can you just talk about that and where we can go to find it and the gifts that we may be surprised with when we make the purchase?

Carline Anglade-Cole:  Yes. Sure. So to get my books… Both of my books come with gifts. The Your Copy Sucks – You Don’t, when you purchase that book, you can get it on Amazon. It’s an e-book, it’s an audio book. It’s hard copy. It’s soft book. You can go to my website, carlinecole.com and see more about the book, too. But if you just want to purchase it, go to Amazon and you can get it. But when you purchase my book, you will get… When you get the book, you’ll find out how to get this, but you get 14 free gifts and they’re worth $1,799 So these gifts include swipe files. You’re going to get 10 of my A-list promotions in a swipe file that you can kind of use to reverse engineer, to study, to whatever, to see kind of what I’ve been doing in the past, I think probably the past 12 years. Well, that swipe file. But you’ll get that. So that’s worth… I’m like, that’s about a thousand dollars right there that you get for free.

And then I also… I’m really big on teaching, like I said. Right now in the book itself, I talk about critiquing copies. So, I give three videos of me critiquing different types of copy so that you could see, like, okay, if you’re writing an email, here’s what email copy… Here’s how I’m critiquing this email copy. If it’s a sales letter, if it’s just… I forgot the free ones. I think the email, sales letter, and a landing page. So you’ll see like, hey, don’t do this. If you’re working on this, focus on here, bring your lead down here. So you get to see and look over my shoulder, how I critique those three types of copy.

And then I also give a really cool interview that I did with my daughter number two, Tiara Cole. And it’s more on the life lessons, about… She grew up from… Her mom’s a copywriter. When she grew up, she became a copywriter. My oldest daughter also grew up and became a copywriter. So there’s something going on here, right? So I talk about copywriting with your children and lessons I taught my children going throughout and how it’s kind of helped them in their lives and careers today.

So you get that little bundle and it’s worth, like I said, $1,799, and you would get access to it when you purchase my book. Whatever format you want to buy, it doesn’t matter. And you will be able to get that when you… Go to my carlinecole.com website, you’ll see all the details about the book, about what’s in the gifts. But if you just want to go ahead and buy the book on Amazon, you can do that and you’ll find out how to get the book, how to get the gifts in the book, too.

Rob Marsh:  Yeah. There’s so much good stuff there. And like you said, I know there’s a tremendous value. I remember a couple of years ago being on your website and seeing all of the swipes that you’re selling for hundreds of dollars. If you want to handwrite your copy and that kind of thing. And so it’s an amazing value. Even if you don’t want the book, you should just get the bonuses.

Carline Anglade-Cole:  The bonuses, exactly.

Rob Marsh:  Exactly. Exactly, right? So Carline before we let you go, we just want to thank you for how generous you’ve been with your time today, with the previous podcast you recorded with us, you presented at our last year’s event, TCCNIRL, not in real life. We are doing our best to get you to one of our live events. I know it’s going to happen someday. At one point we were talking about Tiara, maybe having her speak and it wasn’t working out this year. But if we have to get to the point where we bring the event to your home town, so that we can have you speak, we might be there. So yeah, we just… You’ve been so generous with our audience and everything that you share. So I just want to say thank you for that.

Carline Anglade-Cole:  Aw. Well, thank you. You know, like I said, I’m not speaking anywhere live. I haven’t done anything for the past two years, so everything’s been virtual. But I’m glad I got a chance to do the one virtual with you guys. So we can definitely work out something as things sort of ease up with the whole travel and large groups and all that kind of stuff. So, yep. Yep. I will definitely consider it. So you guys are wonderful. I really appreciate it. And thank you for helping to spread the word about my books and what I’m working on because I’m just loving it. It’s fun.

And I do see I’m not going to be doing this forever. I used to say, “Oh, I’ll be writing copy forever.” No, I’m not, because I’m going to be doing some other stuff. And I want to free up the time to do those things as they come up. So right now I’m loving my mentoring program. I’m loving… Oh, I have my CopyStar email that you can sign up for on my website. You get like a really great copywriting tip almost every single day and that’s free to join. So if you want to get to know me and get some really good stuff, you can get that from my carlinecole.com website to sign up for it. So I got those things going. I feel like if I decide to step away at some point that I at least left something for the next generation. I’ve left sort of a legacy of stuff that I have learned from the best copywriter, to me, in the world.

And so therefore is a way of just giving back and saying, “Here it is. Take it, enjoy it.” I mean, I could sell this stuff, but it’s okay. I don’t need to. I’d rather give it away because copywriting, the career, has been very good to me and I appreciate it. And I appreciate the people like you, Rob, and Kira who are doing just wonderful things with the Copywriter Club and just being very supportive of other copywriters and their ventures. So you guys are very awesome. You really are high up there as far as your your standards, and I respect and appreciate that a lot.

Rob Marsh:  Well, that’s nice of you to say, and we appreciate that. So thanks again, Carline, for taking some time and sharing what’s been going on in your business and yeah, we can’t wait till we can see you in person.

Carline Anglade-Cole:  Yeah. Thank you too.

Kira Hug:  Before we wrap, let’s talk about a couple more ideas that stood out to us, starting with you, Rob. What resonated with you?

Rob Marsh:  Well, okay, so let’s mention Carline’s book again, and I know you and I commented on a couple of chapters as we were talking. We asked Carline about her favorite chapters, but I think this is an awesome opportunity just to promote the book, but I want to share just a couple other chapters that stood out to me and might sort of hook people into thinking about purchasing the book and possibly reading. So chapter nine, which is all about not blaming, she specifically talks about dysfunctional childhoods, but it’s really about not blaming your past because the past is gone, it’s out of your control, but the future is in your control. And so you can change now and move forward.

Chapter 19 is another one that I love, the idea of not confusing principle with pettiness. And we do this a lot where we think maybe we’re sticking to a principle and really we’re just being petty with stuff. And oftentimes it’s just good to take a step back and try to evaluate, is it principle or are we being petty about things? I love chapter 25, which I think she mentioned about exercise and how important it is to keep going. And then finally, chapter 30, which… I mentioned that my favorite chapter is when she talks about not being a superhero, but playing one in real life. And I think actually my real favorite is lesson 30, which is all about don’t be afraid, do it anyway. And I think we talk about this a lot on the podcast, but don’t wait to be chosen, don’t wait until you have confidence. The confidence is built in doing the things. And sometimes you just have to take that step into the void and assume that it’s all going to work out.

And so there’s a lot of really good advice. There’s some really good copywriting advice as well about non competes and writing like you talk and just taking action. But just recapping some of those ideas in the book because again, if any of that resonates with you should pick up the book and then get the bonuses that she mentioned.

Kira Hug:  So as a follow up to that for chapter 30 about doing the thing you’re afraid of, Rob, what has been something you’ve done recently that you felt maybe some discomfort around or there was some fear and you did it anyway and worked through it anyway.

Rob Marsh:  Yeah, that’s a really good question because everything’s been so shut down for the last couple years, that those kinds of opportunities haven’t been great. I mean, I have taken some opportunity to travel as things started to open back up and spend more time with my family. I don’t know that I was necessarily afraid of things, but I know that there’s a lot of fear out there about getting back out. And so for me personally, that’s been one thing, but every year when we do IRL, I hate this to be the default answer, but there’s a lot of unknowns. Are people going to show up, are we going to be able to pull it off? Is it going to be… Is this the one where we’re going to fail? And so every time we do that, I feel like we’re kind of stepping into the void and making something happen and just fingers crossed that everything’s going to turn out okay and usually it does.

Kira Hug:  Yeah, I agree. I think IRL is always terrifying. I don’t know if it will ever stop being terrifying. I think for me, just deciding to move recently, it feels terrifying. And so I think I need to jump into Carline’s book and read chapter 30 as a pick-me-up so I feel confident in this scary decision. So I need Carline’s book right now. I’m still sticking with lesson 10 as my favorite about buying yourself flowers. And I bought myself flowers yesterday and they look gorgeous and they’ll look beautiful at the party tonight. So I support lesson 10 all the way.

Rob Marsh:  And then Carline also talked about what to do when you’re done with what you’re doing and you’re ready to shift gears, how do you get out of the thing that’s become a struggle or that’s become a grind and try something new, just re-channeling yourself. In some ways, this is really what the whole interview is about because Carline’s focused on so many of the new things that she’s doing. Yeah, she’s still writing copy, but she’s doing less of that in order to do all these things that she’s finding exciting in her business. And I think it’s worth looking at our own businesses and doing sort of an evaluation. It’s like, okay, what are the things… Maybe it’s like Marie Kondo-ing your business, right? What are the things that are striking joy? What are the things that make you happy? And what are the things that don’t?

And if you can lean into the things that are making you happy, whether it’s new or not, and do less of the things that don’t make you happy, then that’s a good thing. And maybe that requires bringing in people to help with the team. And Carline talked a lot about the team that she has helping her, especially with her YouTube stuff. Maybe it means working with a different class of clients or maybe it means raising your rates so that you are more excited about the work that you’re doing. There’s lots of ways to do this in our businesses, but that idea of re-channeling yourself into the things that you love, the things that you find exciting, is worth repeating and maybe even, needlepointing into a cushion on the sofa.

Kira Hug:  Yeah, and I feel like for me, I’m trying to do that in many areas right now. It’s like with my own copywriting business. what lit me up before it no longer does it. So it’s pivoting in that business and figuring out, well, what does feel exciting? And then I know in the Copywriter Club, you know, you and I are asking hard questions about like, well, could we do this differently? Could IRL be different? Could the membership be different? Could the podcast? Everything is always open to… I think it’s important to ask those questions rather than just continuing on without thinking bigger.

And so I know Carline said… Another quote I wrote down was “If you don’t let go, if you don’t shift gears, you’re not ever going to know what else is available for you.” And she mentioned she knows she’s a good copywriter, but she doesn’t know if she’s a good author or a good teacher. And I mean, over the last few years, she’s learned that she is a great author as she’s published these books. But I think that’s… I’m always seeking that as well. Similar to Carline. It’s like, okay, if I know I’m good at this, what else is out there? What else could I explore to figure out if it’s a good fit or not? And that I might not always be. And so I love that that was the theme of this entire conversation.

Rob Marsh:  Yeah. And then we wrapped up by asking a question about the mistakes that she sees copywriters making. Obviously she talked about the “we” copy, talking at your clients instead of with your clients or taking your clients’ perspective as you’re writing copy. I’m curious, Kira. We do copy critiques. We work with copywriters all the time. What do you think is the number one mistake you see copywriters making?

Kira Hug:  Whoa, I wasn’t expecting that question. For me, it’s just they’re not specific enough. I feel like anytime we do a copy critique in the Underground, I just say the same thing over and over again, because a lot of the copy is too general, and I do that too. So it’s pulling in those details that bring the copy to life that make it feel real. And those details can go such a long way. Even sometimes like pulling in, if you’re talking about soda, it’s like pulling in the brand name of a specific soda, is it Diet Coke, is it caffeine-free? That level of detail is so important and it’s easy on a first or second draft to forget that. And so that’s what comes to mind first for me. What about for you?

Rob Marsh:  Yeah. So for me, and like you said, we tend to repeat the same kinds of things when we do critiques, but I feel like sometimes copy writers are afraid to make big promises. Instead of dialing up the promise… And I’m not saying making false promises or things that you can’t fulfill on, but I think we hold back and we’re really hesitant to make a big promise in the work that we do, or even when we’re writing for our clients and the things that they’re doing for their customers. And one of the easiest ways to improve the messages that I see is to think bigger about the promise, especially that first headline, the lead copy, and really going into how this is going to solve a big problem for your client. And if it’s not solving a big problem for your client, then maybe we need to go back and rethink what the offer is, the thing that we’re actually doing because big problems are really easy to get paid for. And if you can solve them, like Carline has been doing her entire career, you can make a really good living as a copywriter.

And you kind of reminded me when you were saying, “I do this too.” That’s the importance of getting your copy critiqued because it’s the same with me. When I write copy and submit it to somebody to look at, oftentimes they’ll say the same exact things to me that I’m saying to people when I’m critiquing copy. And it’s like, oh yeah, it’s just good to have somebody there to say, “It’s time to turn it up a little bit,” or “It’s time to make this adjustment,” because we all continue to make the same mistakes. And that’s the way we learn is to get focused, good feedback on our copy. And that’s why groups like the Underground are so good because you can get that on an almost weekly basis.

Kira Hug:  That’s why I love working with an editor. Anytime I work on a client project, and usually it’s Autumn Tompkins, brilliant at editing and I always learn something new, or I just have that reminder from Autumn that I’m making the same mistake I made on the previous project. It’s like, same mistake, I didn’t learn yet. But yeah, I agree. It’s fun to get that feedback and also realize we actually pay more attention to the mistakes we make and we can become better at providing those critiques for others because we’re so aware of those problems.

Before we start to wrap, I just want to add, I liked the part at the end of the conversation where we were talking about Carline being a superhero and what she said about having this system in place and having this support team in place. And I think that’s just a great reminder that many of the people we idolize and admire from afar, they do have a team oftentimes, and they’re not doing it alone. And it was cool of Carline to be transparent about that and to recognize the team involved. And I know for me, it’s like I have an entire support system too, and team members, and coaches, and mentors, and business partners that allow me to do what I do. And so I think I appreciate even more conversation about those systems and teams that allow these superstars in this space, like Carline to do what they do.

Rob Marsh:  Yeah. Talking about superstar, superheroes. There’s always the man in the chair, right, from the Spider-Man movies, or you’ve got Alfred in the bat cave from the Batman movies. It’s easier to be a superhero when you’ve got a team to back you up.

As we wrap, don’t forget the bonuses that Carline mentioned when you buy her book, including the copy critiques, the nine different swipe files and more. To get those go to carlinecole.com/60-lessons. Or if you go to just carlinecole.com, you should see a popup that will take you to that page. And that’s the end of this episode of the Copywriter Club Podcast. Intro music was composed by copywriter and songwriter, Addison Rice. The outro was composed by copywriter and songwriter, David Munter. If you like what you heard, please leave a review for the podcast on Apple Podcasts, or even better share this episode with someone that you know will find it valuable.

Kira Hug:  If you need more bingeable episodes, you could check out episode 189, which is our first podcast interview with Carline, all about her life as a 50-year-old white man. And during our interview, Carline actually mentioned that she’s worked with Laura Gale to write her book. You can listen to our interview with Laura when you download episode 65 to your podcast player. And if you want to light a fire under your business booty with the support of a community and mentors, and if you want to come to my party in DC so I can stop talking about it, head over to copywriterthinktank.com for more information about the Copywriter Think Tank and our upcoming retreat and how you can be a part of it. Thanks for listening. We’ll see you next week.

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