TCC Podcast #239: Transcript of "Writing For Launches with Kristina Shands" | The Copywriter Club
TCC Podcast #239: Transcript of “Writing For Launches with Kristina Shands”

Full Transcript:

Kira:  Being a launch copywriter is not the easiest thing in the world. You’ve got to understand launch strategy, be able to write sales pages and emails, maybe even write webinar scripts, Facebook and Google or YouTube ads, and more, and often even just support your client through the launch experience, which can be a rollercoaster at times. It’s the kind of work that can easily lead to burnout if you’re not careful. Our guest for the 239th episode of The Copywriter Club Podcast is former Think Tank member, Kristina Shands. She joined us to talk all about the work involved with writing and strategizing for launches, and she talked about ways to make launches more enjoyable too.

Rob:  So, before we get to our interview with Kristina, we want to tell you that this podcast is brought to you by The Copywriter Think Tank. This is something we’ve been talking about quite a bit recently, and if you’re tired of hearing us promote the Think Tank, maybe just visit the and find out what it’s all about. It is our private mastermind for copywriters and other marketers who want to challenge each other, create new streams of revenue in their business, to receive coaching from the two of us, and ultimately grow your business to six figures or find more time for the things that you value, whatever your goals are, it’s designed to help you reach them. If you’ve been looking for a mastermind to help you grow as a copywriter or as a business owner, again, visit to find out more.

Kira:  Yeah, and we’re not going to stop talking about it anytime soon. So, sorry. Okay, let’s jump into our conversation with Kristina, as we usually do, with her story.

Kristina:  The roundabout way is how I got here. I spent a lot of time in college just doing random stuff, and then I discovered this thing called public relations, and I figured out I could write pretty well. So, I got a degree in public relations and worked for nonprofits, and then one day, I came in, and my boss said, “Our grant isn’t approved for next year, you’re the only person that I can let go, and sorry.” And so, I was like, “Oh, okay.” So, I spent a year working with other fundraising coaches, worked as a grant writer. I’ve taught fundraising to local nonprofits, and then I worked with graphic designers.

And I had some friends that owned a web company, and I had no idea what I was doing, but I knew I could write. I’d still at this point didn’t know what copywriting was, I just knew I could write scripts and I could write stuff. Had no direction whatsoever. And then ended up finding out what internet marketing was, and got into that world, studied with some of the first, Frank Kern, sort of those types of copier, those types of internet marketers. And then became a VA, discovered launching from a client, came into her company as a junior copywriter, and that was when I was like, “Oh, wait, there’s a science behind copywriting. It’s not just writing words randomly and asking someone to do something, there’s actually a formula and science and metrics and things that I can actually study.”

And then from there, it became a really dive into what it takes to be a real copywriter, how to become a better copywriter, about storytelling. And because my client was doing a lots of launches, I just got to study with her and watch her team do launches. From there, I just went on and started working with other friends and coaches and found my way through the maze. I’ve just been really lucky to get really great referrals and learning as I go and studying, and then found my way here. Long story short, I happened into it, and I’m really glad I did.

Rob:  So, Kristina, I’m curious, going back to PR days, fundraising days, when you started mentioning that, I’m like, “Okay, how do you fundraise? What are the secrets to fundraising?” Because when you’re offering somebody a product to sell or to buy, obviously, I’m going to give you money and I’m going to get something in return. But with fundraising, I’m going to give you money and maybe I’m going to get a few nice feelings in return or what, how do you make that work and be successful? Spill the secrets.

Kristina:  It is absolutely the same thing. It’s all about a feeling. So, you think we’re selling a product, and you’re not, you’re selling a solution, as a fundraiser. And I worked for environmental companies in a state that’s not known for environmental friendliness. I worked with clean energy and clean water groups. And so, trust-selling clean water to someone who is in a state where we’ve got tons of rain and dams and lakes that we can swim in year round, not year round, it gets cold here, but it’s all about a feeling, it’s all about selling a promise, selling the future, selling an emotion. Getting them to see that they can be part of the solution instead of part of the problem. So, how I nurtured and cultivated and solicited a major donor is how I do the same for one-on-one clients.

And I really need to sit down and map it out because there was a system that we use from fundraising that directly correlates to prospecting. And it’s a really beautiful, nurturing, proactive system, but when you’re selling in fundraising, you’re selling a solution. You’re selling being part of a community that cares. It was a lot easier when I worked for a nonprofit that rescued bear cubs. It was really fun because we just got to put cute bear cubs on picture envelopes, and then say like, “Hey, give us money, the bears are hungry.” And people would send us money. Putting a picture of a dirty stream and saying, “Hey, we need to clean up the stream.” This is a little harder, but also getting really creative, getting to know people.

I spent a lot of time on the phone with people, on the phone listening to like, do they have kids in the background? Where are they showing up in the newspaper? What other nonprofits do they support? What is their future? What do they want? And really getting to know them. It’s the same thing as like when you’re looking for one-on-one clients, you really get to know your clients, and before you even present a solution to them, you have an idea of how you want to work with them. And same thing with major donors. So, it’s a really, really fun place to be in, it’s just, the mindset of nonprofit work is very difficult because they think it’s a scarcity, there’s only a limited pot of money and lots of sacrificing, which is not always the easiest. But it’s a really great place to be.

Kira:  Kristina, how long have you been a copywriter now? As you were sharing your story, I couldn’t tell if it’s like, it’s been a decade of copywriting for your own business, or if it’s been a couple of years.

Kristina:  I’ve been on my own since 2009, as a copywriter, I would probably say seven years, actually knowing what copywriting is. And then actually claiming a launch copywriter and that I know what I’m doing, I spent like three years. There’s different evolutions of the confidence level. But actively studying it, actively going and putting myself in situations where I have to get better, three or four years. Yeah. But I’ve been trying to do this entrepreneur thing for a long time, and so, I’m just now starting to hit my stride as an entrepreneur, which is what you don’t really learn when you first start out, how to pay taxes, how to set up a business entity. That stuff, I struggled with for a long time.

Kira:  Kristina, let’s talk about launching, because this is what your expertise is in, can you share with us how the launch space has changed over the last, at least the last three years that you’ve been focused on it, how it’s evolved, and almost like a state of the union on launching?

Kristina:  Yeah, absolutely. I think for launches, it’s really come, there were just a few ways to launch at first. You had like your teleseminars, you had your telesummits, and you had your product launch formula sort of model. And then now you’ve got like your five-day challenges, your webinars, you’ve got your training series, you’ve got more advanced summits. So, things have progressed, but it all comes down to launching in a way that is good for you, and how you want to show up and how your clients want you to show up. It’s all about building relationships. None of that’s changed, it’s just how the technology has changed.

I’m sure that people are going to be launching using Clubhouse, and TikTok, and we’ve got Chatbots and all of that. And it all comes down to what you’re comfortable, how you’re comfortable showing up and selling, what your strengths are, and what you have the resources to handle. So, the how of launching may have changed over the years, but what you’re actually doing hasn’t changed at all. It’s still building a relationship, creating a transformational experience, asking them to say yes. That will never change when it comes to a launch process.

Kira:  How did we know what’s good for us when we’re launching? And maybe this is also a question for when we’re working with clients too, and we’re coming in and working on the launch strategy with a client, how do we start from the beginning to think about like, “Well, what is really good for this particular client?” And maybe even like, “What is good for me too as the person assisting this client?”

Kristina:  Yeah. I think it starts with, what are their strengths? So, what are they really, really great at doing? And then what is the promise that they’re selling? So, if you’re selling a high-end coaching program, and all you’re doing is teaching, but the teaching isn’t part of the coaching program, that might not be the best way for people to really feel and see how it would be like to work with you. And on the other side of it is this, if you really, really hate video, but you’re being pushed into doing a three-part video series, and then selling on video, you’re going to show up really unauthentic, and it’s going to be really painful to watch.

I just had a client go through that, where she did a beautiful webinar, and then it came to selling, and it was so bad that like two minutes in, I was like, “Okay, plan B.” We already knew that she wasn’t going to sell anything because it was that painful because she just wasn’t comfortable doing it. So, if I had known that she wasn’t comfortable doing it, we would have either practiced, or we would have found a different way to do that piece of the sales process. So, getting to know what resources they have, how they like to teach, what they’re really good at.

If you’re a great coach, then coach. If you’re a great teacher, then teach. If you’re a really great motivator and inspirational speaker, do that. So, do what really is great for who you are and how you want to show up. I use also things like Human Design, like the Fascinate test, Kolbe. I’ll look at a lot of the personality tests as a lot of strategists because I want to know a little bit more about how they work, I want to know how I can support them, I want to know their love language, like how do I need to hold space for them? Because launching is really difficult energetically, it’s a mind warp sometimes because it can be really stressful, and it overtakes your entire business.

So, if you’re doing something, if you’ve got a strategy that you don’t love or that doesn’t fully support you, or that you’re not fully resourced to handle, you’re going to have a really difficult launch. And the last thing you want is to be exhausted by the end of your launch and not be able to serve the people that said yes, because the launch is only the beginning of what you actually have to do. But you have to deliver what you promise, what people paid you for. So, what the strategy is, it’s, where’s your audience right now? What do they need? What are you capable of delivering? How do you best show up and create a transformational experience for them?

Once you know those pieces, you can map out what that launch looks like. I have to say, the simpler, the better. I just looked at a launch strategy that was literally two months long, and it was like, I don’t know, 50 or 60 emails before we said, “Hey, do you want to join us?” It was going to be that complex, and I just kept saying, “Do we have to do a summit, and a challenge, and a webinar series, and a masterclass? Do we have to do all of this?” And my answer is, “No, we don’t.” And their answer is, “Yes, we have to,” because they’re getting advice from someone else. I’m just like, “Oh, you’re going to burn out your team. You’re going to stress everyone out. You’re going to disengage your community if you don’t do it properly.”

And so, it’s really trying to get them to see a different way of doing it, and also knowing that most of those resources are not a really great fit for how she shows up. So, it can be a struggle as a copywriter or as a strategist to, if they’re being told by someone else or if they’ve seen someone else have a really successful launch, and they want to do it that way, sometimes you just, all you can do is support them and provide really great copy and hold really great support space for them. And they just let it unfold the way it’s going to unfold.

Rob:  Yeah, I definitely want to see what that two-month long launch looks like, because that sounds totally crazy to me, but very interesting too.

Kristina:  We did something similar in the fall, and literally by the end of Christmas, the team was about to hit the deck. We were all exhausted. At this point, I had written like three sales pages, opt-in pages. I had written so much, and I’m starting to get mad because I’m way outside my boundaries of what my proposal said, and I’m just like, “Ah, I’m way outside of scope, and which makes me mad at myself because that’s a struggle I have.” But her community, she didn’t sell anything extra for doing all of that. So, it was like, we really made it simple.

And I think, especially if you’re a new launcher, the simpler, the better. The faster you can get them from where they are now to where they need to be to say yes, and ask them, the easier it’s going to be, the more fun it’s going to be, the more onboard your community is going to be as well.

Rob:  Cool. So, I may be asking the same question that Kira just asked, but maybe in a different way. Is the kind of launch that you run always dependent on the person who’s running it? Or is there ever a default where you’re thinking, “Okay, you’re selling a course, it’s at this price, it’s at a $1,500 price point, so, for that one, we should definitely do a four-video PLF style launch. Or, this is your first thing, it’s a beta, we should do kind of a soft launch or a stealth launch, something like that. Or you’re in a Facebook group, and so, we should definitely start with a webinar.”

Is there anything that you would look at the product and say, “Actually, this product lends itself more to this type of launch”? Or is it always based off of the person and the personalities behind whatever it is that you’re selling?

Kristina:  Yeah, it’s a good combination. Like, I wouldn’t put in a launch strategy for a $100 product that’s really, really long, unless there’s a really great upsell, unless there’s another reason we would want to go through all that cultivation. If there’s something else down the line, this is the first step. A lot of times, I’m working with first-time launchers, and maybe they’ve got like a VA, maybe this is the first or second time they’ve launched this product. So, we don’t have a lot of success or a lot of testimonials or a lot of proof that this is actually something that’s needed. So, I do always look at, what is the product? How mature is it? How much feedback have we gotten? How much success?

Because what I’ve noticed, and one of the mistakes I see are, people going straight to market with a product and going all in, and it’s not even tested. We don’t even know if it’s something that’s needed, or if they’re even teaching it, or if it’s something that’s even needed. Or if the results that they say they’re going to get actually happen at the end, because they’re not tracking it. Or they’re not having, they don’t have some mechanism in place to get people to show up for all of the webinars and all the trainings and come out on the other side of the transformation complete. But yet, they want to turn it into an evergreen. And it’s not even tested yet.

So, I’m just like, “Okay, well, can we just see if it works?” If it’s something that’s super simple, or something where the point of awareness to consideration decision is pretty short, then a webinar might be able to sell it, if they’re really great at selling on a webinar. If it’s something where we can move them through their process in five days, in a five-day challenge, it really depends on where their community is, how well they sell, the maturity of the product, and then how they like to show up. I’ll look at all of those. And what works works. PLF works. The three-part video series, the sideways sales letter, those work. They just don’t work for everyone.

So, I always like to give people a chance to make it their own, but you’ve got to move people through the decision making process, and there’s no short-cutting it. You can’t assume that you know your audience so well that if you just put it out there, they’re going to say yes. And you also can’t assume that they need too much to get to a point where they’re ready to say yes. So, it’s a lot of just, we’ve got the formulas, we know what’s out there. And there’s also a chance to really see what’s different. I had a client who’s a great coach and she really didn’t want to launch, but she needed to fill up her one-on-one program. So, we did a month of group coaching, and she loved it. And she ended up not filling her one-on-one clients, but she ended up doing a group coaching program instead, and she loved it.

So, if we had done a webinar into one-on-one, she might’ve gotten one or two people, instead, she got seven people to go into a group coaching program. So, a little bit less money, but a little less time too, because they were a small group that she could move through and then sell them into one-on-one coaching. And also, I think about, what are the numbers that they need to hit? If someone’s like, “I want to have a $100,000 launch, but I only have room for five new one-on-one clients, and there, it’s a $5,000 product,” that doesn’t work. Or if there’s a mental or a mindset part to the money piece, having a $20,000 launch could change someone’s life. Having a $100,000 launch really changes their life. That’s a lot of money to come in. There’s mindset stuff that goes with it.

And then there’s also like, numbers don’t lie. If you want to sell 100 people into a program, you need to have 400 people, depending on your conversion rate. There’s the numbers you have to stack up. And to tell someone, “Oh, well, you need to get in front of 10,000 people,” if that’s the number, could freak them out. So, I always am very aware of like, “If I tell them these numbers, how will they react? And what are they comfortable with? What’s a small stretch? And then, can we do that? Let’s create a plan around what that looks like.”

Kira:  Let’s talk about the decision-making process. So, let’s just say like, Rob and I are focused on launching a new product or something, how should we think about the decision-making process as we’re mapping out our own launch, so that we can be more successful? Are there certain questions we should ask ourselves or certain ways we should think about it?

Kristina:  Yeah. Always think about it through the lens of your client transformational journey, and the first part of it, which is, where are they now? So, where is your community now? And where do they need to be in order to say yes? And so, the questions to ask are, what do they need to know? What do they need to do? And what do they need to believe in order to get to yes? So, what do they need to know about themselves, about their own situation, about their business, about their goals, about what they want to create? What do they need to know about you, about your solution, about how you teach, how you show up? What do they need to know about your product, your offer, the benefits, the outcomes? What do they need to know?

And then what do they need to believe? Which is different, because what do they need to believe in their heart about themselves? Now, they really have to believe that they can accomplish this, or they’re not going to be. If they’re a yes but they don’t believe they can do it, they’re just not going to finish the program. And maybe they stop paying for the program or maybe they just drop out all their money back. So, what do they need to know? What do they need to believe about themselves? What do they need to believe about you? What do they need to believe about the product?

And then what do they need to do? And that is a step like, do they need a list before they say yes? Do they need to change their mindset? Do they need to already have a product created? Do they need to have a certain level of experience? Do they need to get permission from someone? So, are there things they need to actually do before they’re ready to say yes to your offer? And once you’ve mapped out that piece of it, that sort of your launch roadmap or your launch story, so, every single piece that gets them closer to saying yes is content, it’s part of your webinar, it’s maybe Facebook ads, maybe it’s a free offer, maybe it’s a training series, but once you’re really clear about what gets them from where they are to yes, you give them all of that. That’s your launch, and knowing that is really key to having a successful launch.

Rob:  I want to see if we can make this really practical or take an example of how you would walk through those steps. And so, I’m trying to think of like a product where you could show us like, okay, what does it mean when you say, what do they have to know? What’s an example? So, could we take like the Think Tank, which I know you’re familiar with the Think Tank as a product, as one of our products. If this doesn’t work, we could choose something else. That like, let’s ask some of those questions and figure out what are those steps that we would go through so that we can just make this really tangible.

Kristina:  Yeah. So, you’ve got your ideal clients for the Think Tank and where they are now. So, where are they now as far as, where are they in their business? What are they struggling with? What do they desire? And then it goes back to, what do they need to know about themselves? What do they need to know about what they want their copyrighting future to look like? What do they need to know about what they want their copywriting business? So, they have to have some sort of like future in copywriting to make the investment in the Think Tank. So, they’ve got to know, and if they don’t know, these are questions you ask them, these are the questions that you put handouts for, you do a training around.

So, they get to know themselves a little bit better and about what the future that they want, then they have to start believing in themselves. Do they believe that they can do it? Do they believe that you can get them to the other side? Do they believe that the Think Tank is the right vehicle to get them to where they want to be? Do they believe they are capable of showing up? Because one of the things that I made a commitment to myself when I said yes to the Think Tank was, “I’m going to show up, and I’m going to do the work.” And that was my commitment. And once I believed it in my soul that I was going to show up and that I was going to be a yes, I was in. That was the moment that I was just like, “Okay, it’s a yes.”

I was in my backyard with my dogs, and I was just like, “All right, okay,” once I believed it. But I had to believe it and I had to believe in myself first. So, I believed in you and Kira, I believe in you guys, but it was me that was holding back. And then, what do they need to know? What do they need to know about the logistics? Or what do they need to know about, if I don’t, if this isn’t the option? So, now, these are the sort of the questions, I don’t know if that helps make it a little bit more tangible, but some of it is onus on them and their own internal transformation.

Rob:  Yeah. Maybe take another example. Let’s say that we’re selling a course on, I don’t know, how to use some technology, Microsoft Word or something. I would need to, there’s a what in information stage where it’s like, I need to know how Microsoft Word is going to help me in my business, or it’s going to help me achieve some transformation in my business. That’s the information know stage. Then there’s this belief feeling stage where I need to create a belief in myself that this is the tool, this is the thing that’s going to actually teach me what I need to know. And then I’ve got to be able to see the transformation, and it’s got to be really clear what the next step is to purchase. That’s the process. I’m sorry if I’m kind of being dumb here, but, yeah, just trying to work-

Kristina:  No, that’s perfect. Yeah. And then the do part is, is like, if I’m going to use Microsoft Word, do I need to go buy a PC? There’s a do part to that as well, because you’re not able to use Microsoft Word on iPad. So, there’s a doing component as well. So, if you’re selling to someone who is always, that is a Mac user, then is that you’re selling something that’s different than someone to a PC user. So, there’s something they need to do. Not so much anymore because you can use Microsoft on everything, but that’s the doing part. For some people, say, you’re selling a course on creating courses, one of the precursors may be that they need to believe that they can make money selling courses, or that they’re capable of having enough information and enough belief in themselves to sell courses.

But one of the things they have to have before they can sell a course is, they have to have a list. So, is growing a list part of your pre-launch? Is it part of your launch? Is it a product you sell before you sell the course product? And they have to have, maybe if I’m selling something that’s more advanced launch course or something, then they have to have a team. So, I teach them how to hire a VA, how to hire a launch manager, how to hire a copywriter. So, those are things that we would need to do before they’re ready for something more advanced. So, being aware of all of the pieces in your launch helps you figure out what you need to move them through.

And launch is just a transformational process. It’s to get them from where they are now to where they want to be. And that sort of transformation is your promise to them. Whether they say yes to your product or not, by the end of the launch, they would have changed. They’re in a better place. They’re in a place where they can have the… they’re closer to the success they want than they were before the launch started. So, there’s no reason to launch something and then not give… I mean, we’ve been part of launches where you didn’t get a single thing out of it. And it’s just like, “Why?” And if I have to live through another one of those launches, I’m going to cut out of the list. So, you want your launches to be beneficial whether they say yes or not.

Rob:  Let’s break in here to talk a little bit about some of the things that Kristina was mentioning as we were talking about this with her. And so, let’s start, I want to start, I think, with love languages, because it’s kind of an interesting concept to me. It’s a little bit, I don’t know, it’s a little bit woo, which is the space that Kristina plays around in with, but love language is an interesting thing to bring to the launch conversation as you think about, how do you support your clients in all of the stressful stuff that’s going on during a launch? So, I don’t know if you’ve got thoughts about love languages in particular, or about whether they’re appropriate, but I’m curious, Kira, what is your love language?

Kira:  I am a little bit more woo than you, and so, you would think I would know my love language, but I haven’t actually, I haven’t figured it out. I know it seems like the five are, it’s words of affirmation, or acts of service, doing helpful things for your partner, receiving gifts, giving gifts, quality time, or physical touch. So, I’m like, I want all of it. This is kind of my problem in life, I don’t want to choose, I like all of it. I don’t want to say I’m one or the other. I know there’s a test you can take, and I’m sure I could figure out which one I am, and maybe we can figure out each other’s love languages in the business sense since we aren’t physically touching each other.

But we do spend quality time together, and we do send each other gifts, and so, I guess, all I’d say, I don’t know what it is, I’m a little curious, but I also, I don’t want to just choose one, I want all of it. So, that’s how I feel about it. What about for you? How do you like to receive your love?

Rob:  As I got through those five things, I’m definitely a words of affirmation person, I think. You know me, I’m a side-hugger, I don’t really love being touched.

Kira:  Oh, yeah.

Rob:  Gifts, gifts are fun, but I don’t get jazzed about them. It’s cool when somebody sends a gift and I’m like, “Oh, that’s really thoughtful,” or whatever, but that’s… I think I like praise or respect, that kind of thing. So, I think that’s where I lean. But I do think this is really interesting to think about your clients and their love languages. I don’t know if it’s worth having a client take a test for that, but if you can identify, “Oh, yeah, clients love gifts,” or, “Clients really like words of affirmation,” or if you’re in a proximity and you can actually get together with your client, giving them a hug when things get tough, it’s an interesting approach and something I’ve never really considered in my work with my clients that Kristina talked about.

Kira:  Yeah. That’s interesting. And maybe it’s quality time, I do appreciate quality time, so, it’s good to know about you because I will never send you a gift again, and I will just send words of affirmation and tell you how cool you are. Maybe I should do that more frequently via text message. I don’t do that enough.

Rob:  It’s all good. It’s all good. Okay, we also talk really in depth about launches. And this is not something that I do a ton of. I’ve done some things around launches, and my work in health and wellness, occasionally, clients are launching new products or whatever, but the launch space, particularly as we think about it in internet marketing, is very different from launching something in SaaS, or even a physical product in health and wellness space. So, maybe, Kira, you can talk a little bit about your launches and the boundaries that are required in launches, because this stuff can really get out control.

Kira:  Yeah. I mean, I fell into launches, and then I’ve worked on a bunch for clients, and then more recently focusing more on our TCC launches. So, I think if you’re going into the launch phase, it tends to be kind of like a sexier space in the copywriting space, where it’s exciting. I think it’s also exciting because you can see the direct impact that you can make on a launch really quickly, within a matter of a couple of days. And also, it can be attached to a good amount of revenue for your clients. So, it’s somewhat easier to charge more for launch packages maybe compared to some other packages out there. You could probably argue that either way. So, I think the launch space can be really fun. It’s a great way to learn a conversion copy and experiment because it’s constantly changing.

I mean, there are core principles at work, but it’s also, it’s a great place to experiment if you like to experiment. I think it’s also a great way for copywriters to put on their consultant hat or the problem solving strategy hat. If you feel like you want to dabble in that space and you haven’t really been able to with previous projects, when you jump into the launch space, typically, clients are very open to direction and strategy, even if they’ve launched before, they’re overwhelmed because there’re so many things they have to do, and they would love an insider on their team, not just to write the copy, but to provide guidance and suggestions and come up with a game plan.

And so, there’s a lot of opportunities to do more than just writing copy, if that’s what’s of interest to you. I think the part to be careful about, like you already mentioned, is just, it’s, burnout is really high, especially if you work on several launches, clients can tend to lean on you a little bit more than they might with other projects because it can be so stressful for them. Oftentimes, they’re putting out a lot of money on ads, and they want to see that return, and so, it’s just, it also feels very, especially if it’s a personality brand launching a product, it feels very tied to their own identity, and so, failures are harder to take.

So, there’s also this emotional side of it that if you can nurture your clients and help them throughout, and you enjoy that, there’s great benefits for you, but if you just want to get in and do your thing, and then get out when they launch it, I think you just need to be really clear about what role you want to play in a launch before you start to create your packages and sell them, because there’re so many different ways you can do it. But if you aren’t intentional, and if you don’t set those rules for yourself, you just may be, it may be a painful experience, so, it’s just worth thinking through, how do you want to work on launches? What’s best for you? And where can you add the most value for your clients?

Rob:  Yeah, like I said, I don’t have a ton of experience other than when we have launched, but it does seem to me that the real opportunity here, or one of the pitfalls is around boundaries, is because a client is paying you, say, $10,000, or maybe $30,000, or even $50,000 for all of these pieces of a launch in, talk about dozens of emails, two or three sales pages, followup sequences, abandoned cart sequences, there’s all of this stuff that can go into a really big launch, and it’s really easy for a client to look at that and say, “Well, I’m paying you $30,000, can you throw in three more emails?” And as the launch goes along, those needs pop-up really consistently, and so, you’ve got to be very protective of your boundaries, saying, “This is the scope of the project.”

Of course, you can throw in two or three emails, but it’s very easy for two or three emails today to also require a couple more tomorrow, or maybe, “Can you just do this landing page really quickly?” And, again, so, that’s really where it comes down to being really strict with boundaries, or being okay with doing extra work, if you start to give on your boundaries.

Kira:  Yeah, I think when it comes to the financial side of charging for launches, it’s easy to become enamored by the big, the high price tags for some launch projects, where we’ve talked to copywriters who charge 30K for launches, or 50K, or more, or taking a percentage on the backend, and so, it’s really easy to be like, “Oh, my gosh, you can make so much money in that space.” But when you actually talk to a lot of those copywriters about what they’re doing, and the deliverables that are included, and how much access they’re giving to their clients, when you break it down, and sometimes it’s actually not, it’s not worth it in the end, if you look at what they’re getting paid per hour or per deliverable. So, I think, just be careful with that.

And the last thing I’ll say too, is just, the cool part about launches, again, is that it’s copy that your clients will use repeatedly, because so many of them will launch twice a year, three times a year, or maybe it’s an evergreen product you’re working on, and they’ll run the same copy with minor changes for years. I mean, it could be three years, it could be more than that. So, when you’re thinking about what you’re charging for it, factor in the asset, and how frequently they can use it, and how much value that is per each launch with that copy that you’re giving to them.

Rob:  Yeah, that’s really good advice. Okay, the last thing I want to bring up that Kristina was mentioning, and I think this is something that maybe a lot of copywriters don’t think about enough, and that is the belief that we need to have. When we’re talking to somebody, they need to believe certain things about their ability to do things, or about the effectiveness of the product. And that all goes back to worldview. And so, understanding where your customer is, what they believe today, and how those beliefs need to shift in order to purchase a product, really matters.

And that, in part, should be driving the copy that they’re receiving, whether it’s an email, thinking about, I’ve got to go from believing that, let’s take maybe a dumb example, but let’s say that I want to lose five pounds, and I have a belief that this product that I’m going to buy doesn’t work, or I’ve tried something similar, I have to be able to, as a copywriter, overcome that belief in my customer to help them see that this product is going to work. And way back in, I think it was 2018, our very first TCC IRL, Sam Woods gave a presentation about this that’s really good. It’s in the Underground, all about, how do you shift that belief? And I think he even talked about how he made an auto parts manufacturer cry because of the belief shifting that he did in an email sequence.

Rob:  Anyway, it’s something that we should be thinking more about, where our customers are today, and where they need to be, how do we shift those beliefs as we talk to them about how we solve their problems?

Kira:  Yeah, I was going to shout-out Sam Woods too. You beat me to it. So, love Sam Woods. And I also, that lesson sunk in when Sam talked through those shifts and beliefs and how it’s really baby steps too, it’s not this giant leap from one belief to another, it’s just inching along. And the way he talks about it with email is just like, what does someone believe at the beginning? When they first open an email, what do they believe? And what do you want them to believe by the end of that one individual email? And it might just be a micro-shift, but then, when the second email comes out, you’re starting from a new belief that you’ve already shifted, and you can shift it again. And so, I think when you think about, it’s helped me think about emails and what we actually are doing with emails through that, so, thank you, Sam Woods.

Rob:  Yeah. And going along with that, oftentimes, we think, “Well, people don’t shift their worldview.” We’ve heard the Eugene Schwartz thing where the market, you can’t create a need in a market. But when we were talking with Marcus McNeill a couple of weeks ago on the podcast, he talked about marketing very progressive ideas to a conservative audience, and how they did that. And it dawned on me that worldviews can shift, or you can bring people to believe certain things about their worldview and ideas that they might ultimately or initially reject by appealing to this belief-shifting process and the things that they want to see in their life. So, that’s worth going back and revisiting too, the campaign that they did to legalize psychedelics in Denver.

Kira:  Yeah. I was going to ask you a question, but then I knew you’d ask me the same question and I didn’t want to answer it. I was going to ask you, what beliefs have shifted for you even over the last year? I don’t know if anything comes to mind because it’s a big question, but I know for a fact, many of my beliefs have shifted over the last year. Even when you think that you are very clear in your beliefs, it’s amazing how there can be these micro-shifts over even just a short period of time.

Rob:  Yeah, exactly. I don’t know that there are specifics that I can think of off the top of my head, but-

Kira:  Yeah, that’s tricky.

Rob:  But any marketing campaign is designed to do that, and if the end result is that it helps me solve a problem or do something better, then that’s an awesome thing. And it’s a super power that we have as copywriters and we should use it effectively to help our customers solve their problems.

Kira:  I remember when I was in a Ray Edwards’ mastermind a couple of years ago, he would talk a lot about beliefs and how he was really passionate about questioning. The beliefs he felt most strongly about, those are the ones he wanted to identify first and question why he was so attached to those particular beliefs. And so, I think, I like thinking about it that way, what am I attached to? And just poking holes in those beliefs too.

Rob:  Yeah, I like that frame a lot because I think we do get attached to our own worldviews and we’re not always right. And it’s good to question that, and to learn, and to change.

Kira:  All right, let’s go back to our interview with Kristina and talk a little bit about Human Design. I want to hear more about Human Design. You’ve mentioned it in this conversation, I know you’ve mentioned it in the past. It sounds fascinating. I’m less familiar with the concepts. Can you just teach us or share a couple of the key concepts or takeaways that we should know as marketers, maybe if we’re in the launch space, we should know it, or maybe just as copywriters, we should know it?

Kristina:  Yeah, I’m not a super expert on it. I know my Human Design, and once I learned more about how I show up in Human Design, it helped a lot. So, I’m a Manifesting Generator, which means, if I put myself out there, I generate leads, I generate opportunities very easily. But I have to actually show up and do the work. And things just don’t come to me without putting myself out there, I generate opportunities. And the simple example is, someone that I knew from a long time ago posted something random about her dog or something, and I was like, “Oh, hey, cute dog.” And then she was like, “Hey, are you still writing copy? I’m looking for a copywriter.” And I hadn’t talked to her in like two years.

And I was like, “Oh, that’s awesome.” She was like, “Not now, but we’ll need one later.” And I was like, “Great, she’s on my radar screen.” So, that’s the beauty of Human Design. But also knowing that for me, because of how my design is made up, I cannot make decisions or I should not make decisions from an excited state. I really need to make decisions from a very calm, balanced, grounded place. If you’re a Reflector, you shouldn’t make decisions for 30 days. You need some more space to make decisions. So, knowing sort of the things about your design is really helpful to know how not only you market yourself, and how you show up, and how you deliver content, but how you make your own decisions.

I use it in a way that is supporting of what I do, and not the bread, and not like the, “Oh.” I’m not someone that’s like, “Oh, it’s Mercury retrograde, I’m not going to do anything.” Or, “I’m not going to do any technology.” Because we’re in Mercury retrograde like a third of the year or something. You cannot do stuff based on what everyone-

Kira:  That actually sounds great though.

Kristina:  Yeah, it does. But it’s one of those where I’m aware, I use it to elevate what I’m already doing, to support what I’m doing, to give me insights, but it doesn’t rule everything. But I’m fascinated by Human Design. I really, I have a friend who is a great Human Design expert, and she gives me lots of feedback when I’m asking questions. She’s a Projector, so, she really has to show up in a very different way than how I can show up. And that part’s fascinating, but also, there’s not any Human Design, anyone who gets to just sit back and things come to you. All of us have to show up and do the work. All of us have to put in the effort and be seen and ask, you just ask in different ways. So, I don’t know.

If there are Human Design experts out there and I got anything wrong, you can just @ me on Instagram, but I think it’s something really fun to know when I’m working with clients.

Kira:  Well, what are some resources? Is there just a book I can read on Human Design? Is there a course on it if I want to learn more?

Kristina:  Yeah, you can go, if you just Google Human Design, there’s a website where you can download your chart and it gives you a little bit of explanation, and then you can upsell. I think it’s like $39, you can get a more advanced chart. It tells you a little bit more. You can find Human Design experts. My friend, Sora Schilling, is a really brilliant Human Design person, and she does a lot around Human Design and marketing. There are great Human Design and marketing experts out there that actually combine the two. If you search, there are great ones out there. I think it’s a rabbit hole. If you really love it, you can really do a lot of research around it, that, and I really like Gene Keys as well.

I noticed I was starting to spend a lot more time studying that, and then it was going to be like another rabbit… It was just going to be another reason for me to not do prospecting, to not do the work that I’m meant to do. So, for me, it could be a rabbit hole that keeps me from actually making money, because I’d rather learn something like that than do a Facebook live. So, I take as much as I need out of it, and then I leave it to the experts for everything else. But, yeah, there’s lots of really great resources out there.

Rob:  You mentioned Projector, you mentioned Manifestor, you mentioned Reflector, what are the other roles in Human Design for those of us who this is completely outside of our experience?

Kira:  I think Rob’s a Reflector, for the record.

Kristina:  They’re really, really, really rare.

Rob:  Yeah. Well, and what do they do? How do I know if… Well, I have no idea if I’m a Reflector, I think.

Kristina:  I don’t know him well enough to know that, therefore, there’s Manifestor, there’s Generator, there’s Reflector, there’s Projector, and then there’s a Manifesting Generator, or maybe there’s just Manifestor in the Manifesting Generator.

Rob:  When I hear you say that, I’m like, I’m going back to that song like, oscillator, generator, make a circuit with me. Do you remember that song or not?

Sorry, keep going.

Kristina:  Yeah. I mean, there are things that you can go in, and there’s lots of free resources out there, there are lots of books. I mean, it’s one of those where it’s really fun to know how you relate to the world. I think one of my favorite things to look at is like, Sally Hogshead has got the Fascinate test, and that’s how the world sees you. That’s really fascinating test to take as well. And it just gives you a little bit more insight. The more you know yourself, the better you can show up in the world. And I don’t know about anyone else, but the more personal growth I do, the more business growth I do. So, yeah, I don’t know how people don’t do personal growth and have a business because it feels like they’re so interconnected for me.

And my clients are spiritual entrepreneurs, so, they’re the ones that are the healers and the lightworkers and the energy managers, and so, they really need me to know a little bit more about that side of the world.

Rob:  And what are you, Kristina?

Kristina:  I’m a Manifesting Generator.

Kira:  When Kristina said that the Reflector, I think you said the Reflector takes a month to think about something, I was like, “I think that could be Rob,” because, I mean, in a good way. Like, you ask questions, you want to think about it and make good decisions.

Rob:  That’s totally me, Reflector.

Kira:  So, that just kicked in for me. But, yeah, I don’t know. I really, I want to take the test or learn more because I think it is positive to learn more about how you relate to the world. That can only benefit us in business and life.

Kristina:  There are Human Design experts out there that are poking their ears out, because they’re just like, “You guys are destroying everything,” because I probably got a lot wrong. But it is really fascinating and there’s a lot of free resources out there. And again, it’s just one of those-

Rob:  I get a lot wrong all the time.

Kristina:  I know, me too, me too. Things like, if you know about yourself, if you, we talk a lot inside the Think Tank around lunar cycles for women, the more you know your energy, the more you know how you work, the more you know about how you show up in the world. It makes selling better, it makes empathy and connecting easier. And so, it doesn’t hurt to have all of that information, and it doesn’t hurt to know a little bit more about your clients than just like their mission statement and what products they sell.

Kira:  Let’s talk about energy. I mean, you’ve mentioned it in this conversation about managing energy during a launch, but we also know that most people who launch anything, even if it’s a simple launch, it’s draining, and we burn out, and it just takes over our life, even when we’re trying to be intentional about not doing that, it just happens. And so, how can we be better at managing our energy in our own launches? Or if it’s easier to answer it, thinking about like, how can we help our clients manage their energy? Maybe we can speak to it from both sides.

Kristina:  Yeah. One of the things I do with my clients when it comes to a launch is we include a self-care plan. So, as we’re mapping out like when cart opens, cart closes, when the webinar is, we’re building in, and it’s a little more difficult now with so many things shut down, but like when are you… schedule dates with your husband, schedule massages. When are you going up to the park? Where do you go for grounding? How do you like to rejuvenate? And we build those into the launch. So, the day that you’ve got your big sales presentation, go out and go for a quick walk before you show up, or go stand outside on grass barefoot, if it’s possible, or take a shower, if that’s how you blow off the negative energy.

So, it’s creating a self-care plan before the launch even starts. It’s actually part of what… Send an email, go for a hike. So, that’s part of it. And also, knowing yourself well enough to know what energizes you and what drains you. I’m a really, I’m a night owl, and, Rob, you’re a morning person. So, for me, if I try to create my launch or create my schedule around being a morning person, it would be a nightmare, because it’s just not where my energy is. My energy is at night, I thrive at night. And I honor that when it comes to the work that I do, and especially when it comes to clients.

It’s not always like, if my clients, right now, I’ve got clients overseas in Israel and in the UK, and so, I end up doing a lot of morning stuff, which just means I write late at night and they look at it in the morning. So, I honor my own energy, and also their energy and their timing as well. So, you’ve got to manage, you’ve got to know, when do your clients work? When do you work best? And find a schedule that works. For the launches, how do they handle stress? How do they prefer feedback? How do they handle something that like really pressure? And then you being really resilient emotionally to be able to handle it. I’ve had clients yell, I’ve had clients threaten me, I bet if you just had a bad webinar, and it’s all of a sudden my fault.

And then it’s just like, “Okay, this is okay. We’re going to re… I don’t deserve it.” They always apologize. But when the things are super stressful, first-time launchers, well, like yell, and be like, “Ah, it’s your fault.” It’s just like, “You didn’t follow my scripts. You weren’t prepared.” It’s okay. First-time launchers especially don’t know what they’re going into, and it’s really stressful when they’re like… Yeah. And I can hold a really solid space for them to work out that energy and be like, “Okay, are we ready? Can we move forward? This is what we do next.” And also, be like, “You can’t talk to me like that.” So, we have conversations.

And I think that’s one of the things like just the clients that I work with are very emotional, not in a bad way, but they’re very much, this is their life’s work, this is their mission. So, it’s very, everything compiles and it’s really, really important, and they feel the pressure when something goes wrong. And sometimes I like that, and sometimes that’s why I say I can’t ever work with some launches again. But if my client has a bad day, what can I do to support them? If their team has a bad day or if something goes wrong, how can I show up and support them? How can I show up and get feedback in a way that’s really helpful.

I’ve got a client who, she gives feedback to me in a very specific way that I don’t particularly like, but that’s how she does it, and so, I just, I’m like, “Okay, I get how she’s doing it,” and so I can take the ego out of it and be like, “Oh, she’s not doing it because it’s something that I’m doing wrong, it’s, she’s doing it because that’s how she communicates.” I think there’s just a lot around how I can support my clients, and also hold my own boundaries. And that sort of energy management. But so much of it is, how do they have fun? How do they rejuvenate? How do they handle a bad situation? What do they get super excited about? Knowing those things and building that time into your launch is really, really helpful.

And also, I can do a little bit of reiki, I’ve got reiki people in my world that I can refer them to, massages are really great, mindset work, journaling. So, there’s a lot, yeah, there’s a lot to it when it comes to energy management. But also, I’ll work with people that are rarely aware of their energy.

Kira:  Maybe this is a similar question, and so, maybe, but I feel like it’s slightly different. It sounds like you give so much energy to your clients. And like you’ve mentioned, you hold space for them. They are, launching is stressful, a lot of money is usually on the line, and so, you are so great at even creating this energy management system for your clients and supporting them, but also, I imagine, that’s really draining for you, and so, I guess, is it sustainable? Or how can we make it sustainable? Because I know that many of us in the launch space can feel that way, and it’s often why a lot of launch copywriters burn out, because it’s so intense and there’s so much more needed in addition to the copy and the strategy.

It’s like you are oftentimes supporting someone else’s emotions, and like you said, you had people yell at you, and you’ve learned how to handle it well, you’ve learned how to handle it well, and I know you created boundaries, but what is a sustainable way for us to manage our clients’ emotions and be service providers, but also take care of our own selves and create our own boundaries?

Kristina:  Yeah, that’s a great question. For me, it is, the more proactive I can be, and the more I can lead the situation, the easier it is. So, I know that when I show up as reactive, or when I’m not prepared for something that could go wrong, or I haven’t made sure that everything is, not necessarily taken care of, I’ve got my eye on everything that’s going on, I can control a lot of what happens, or I can at least be able to respond, like the example of my client who had this great webinar, and then the sales piece was absolutely terrible. I mean, before she even got off the webinar, I had a list of 10 things that we can do immediately to mitigate what happened.

Like, we can rerecord it, I had an email drafted up and what we could do. So, she got off the call, she was feeling bad. She got an email that said, “Hey, this isn’t the end of the world, this is what we can do.” So, that helped a whole lot because that took a lot of pressure off of her. So, the more I am proactive, the more organized I am, the more I show up as later in the expert, and take that role, the easier it is for them to have those mistakes and feel okay with continuing on. So, what we don’t want is for something to go wrong, because launches never go as planned.

What we don’t want is for something to go off-track and then our clients decide to quit or give up or go back to something that doesn’t feel authentic to them, and then that doesn’t help the situation at all either.

Rob:  Kristina, I want to change the subject just a little bit. When you were telling your story at the very beginning of the podcast, you mentioned that you have been exceptionally lucky in the work that’s coming your way and the clients that you’ve been able to connect with. And I suspect that it’s not luck, that you’re doing something that actually creates the luck. I’m sure luck happens in a lot of cases, but I think most of the time, we like to attribute to luck something that actually we did, we’re working at. So, I’m wondering if you can identify some of the things that you do in your business that have made you lucky, that have put you in the right places to connect with the right people, or have led you into communities or groups, or projects, or opportunities, ideas, whatever, what are you doing to be lucky?

Kristina:  Yeah, that’s a great question. A lot of it is, going into communities and groups and masterminds and courses and being really active. So, a lot of clients still today, are just from a mastermind I was in eight years ago. And they turned out to be the first group of coaches that I worked on launches with. And as they grew, and I grew, we grew together, which was really, really nice. I’ve been in really big programs like 90 Day Year, and was really, really active, and showed up to all of the calls and was active on the Facebook group. And I did it with intention because I was wanting to invest in that program, and they were going to be my ideal clients. I wanted to show up and offer my service, and then get clients from that. And I have, and I still do.

And that was six years ago that I was in that program. So, a lot around strategic partnerships, joining bigger programs with the intention of getting clients because it’s a good fit, going to where my clients are and being a part of the conversation, and then just relying on relationships, like putting it out there to friends and saying, “Hey, I’m looking for a chance to speak to masterminds and at retreats, who do you know that could use a copywriter or a messaging strategist to speak to your mastermind?” I did that at the end of last year, and immediately had two people say, “Hey, I’m looking for someone, can you talk next week?” And it turned out to be a really nice little paying speech to someone’s mastermind, then offered a lot of value.

That was unexpected because I just put it out there and people jumped at it. But also, it’s like, who do you know that? And they know a lot of people. So, when someone else says to them, “Hey, I’m looking for someone for my mastermind,” they can say, “Hey, I’ve got this friend, and she’d be great.” So, nothing beats relationships, nothing beats… and I think that’s part of the power of a mastermind and being part of active community and active in communities where your ideal clients are, and being intentional with strategic alliances. That’s how I got lucky. And also asking, putting myself out there and saying, “Hey, who do you know that?”

Rob:   Part of manifesting, I think. So, are there things that you wish you had done differently?

Kristina:  Oh, yeah. I wish I had niched down a little bit more and gotten really clear about who I work with, which I didn’t do until the very first Think Tank. I was like, “Oh, yes, spiritual entrepreneurs launch strategist, launch copywriter.” I flowed along and did websites, and did Facebook ads, and I was learning social media. So, I was constantly being like, “Oh, look, they need something. I’m going to learn it and then go pitch.” Or I wasn’t very focused and wasn’t very clear about what I can do and the outcomes that I can bring. So, I would’ve niched down sooner, but also was able to niche down sooner. I don’t know. I mean, I believe that everything happens for a reason and at its own time.

There were a lot of programs I invested in that I haven’t even looked at. So, maybe spend more money on coaching in community versus buying a program that I had no intention. I love me a good sales page though. Give me a good sales page, and I’m like, click the button, which is why I shouldn’t make decisions when I’m emotionally charged. So, yeah, I mean, not a whole lot of regrets.

Kira:  Can you speak to your mindset change, your own mindset shift over, maybe even over the last year, since we’ve been working closely with you in the Think Tank, and how it’s shifted even more recently as you’re evolving your own identity beyond copywriter and beyond launch strategist and you’re embracing these new identities as more of a business coach or strategist? And I know you haven’t necessarily landed on a title, but your identity continues to evolve, and so, how do you keep up with that mindset-wise? And what practices have you incorporated to help you as your mindset has changed?

Kristina:  Yeah, a lot of it is around just trusting the process, and trusting that when I find what I’m supposed to be doing. And copywriting is not my thing, it’s close, and I’m getting there, and I want to rush it. I want to be like, “Hey, tell me what to do. I bet the sky, tell me what I’m supposed to do.” But trusting the process, trusting the opportunities that come in front of me. And the mindset around that is, I have plenty of time to find that thing. I have plenty of opportunities. I do a lot of journaling, a lot of meditating. And then a lot of looking outside of the industry for inspiration. I love reading books about people doing the impossible. I’m obsessed with Mount Everest, so, I love anything that’s not in climbing, and looking to see like what are…

I’m in a group called Build Your Life Resume, and there’s just people from all over the world in there and they’re doing amazing things. So, I get really great inspiration from them. And I just trust that I’m where I’m supposed to be, and also as I keep looking forward. I don’t know that I have the answers for when it comes to mindset, but if I have any advice around mindset, it is to not isolate yourself, which I tend to do, which is hard to do when you’re in something like the Think Tank. But the more connected I am to my clients, more connected I am to my work. The more I talk about launching, and why I do what I do, the easier it is to stay super inspired, and the easier it is to stay excited and to pitch myself and to go out and talk about what I do and to be seen. And that sort of mindset is really helpful when I get out of my own way.

Kira:  We are going to ask you some lightning round questions, Kristina, if you’re game.

Kristina:  Oh, yeah, let’s do it.

Kira:  So, Kristina, do you prefer dawn or dusk?

Kristina:  Dusk.

Kira:  Favorite day of the week.

Kristina:  Wednesday.

Kira:  Interesting. Why Wednesday?

Rob:  Wednesday. Yeah, why? Why Wednesday?

Kristina:  No idea, just lightning. So, yeah, no idea.

Kira:  Trust it. What is the place you most want to travel when we are able to travel again?

Kristina:  I want to see Everest. That’s my obsession.

Kira:  And you have plans, right? You’re doing it the next fall?


I do have plans to go to base camp. Yes. But somewhere on the warmer side, I would also love to go back to Costa Rica or see water that’s turquoise, because I don’t believe it exists. I see all these pictures of the Caribbean and I was like, “Oh, that’s fake.” I just want to see really clear water, but I’m not a beach person, I’m much more of a mountain person.

Kira:  Okay, a couple more. Favorite childhood TV show.

Kristina:  I grew up in the ’70s and ’80s, so, like Brady Bunch. What popped in my head was like, “What is that show with a boarding school? Why would that just pop up in my head?” Yeah, I don’t remember the name of it, but, yeah, like old MacGyver shows, Golden Girls, I don’t know. I don’t remember watching a whole lot.

Kira:  Can’t go wrong with Golden Girls.

Kristina:  I mean, I grew up when TV was like, we had three channels when I grew up. And I remember getting MTV and thinking it was like the best day of my life because we got MTV. And they actually showed videos.

Kira:  Favorite number, I feel like you would have a favorite number.

Kristina:  I like 24. It was my favorite hockey player, and it’s just a number that’s always stuck. It’s not really a very magical number, but it’s my favorite.

Kira:  And what does a person need to be happy, in order to be happy?

Kristina:  Well, I’ll be easy and say dogs or cats. To be happy, I think they need to have purpose. I think if you know your purpose and you know what your mission is, I think that’s happy.

Kira:  And you all listening cannot see Kristina on video like we can, but her dog, what kind of dog is it? Her dog is so adorable and sits right behind her on the chair the entire time we’re chatting.

Kristina:  She’s hogging the entire chair. She’s a Pitbull Boxer mix, and then the other one is a Mountain Cur and she’s on the couch, I mean, she’s on the bed. But, yeah. But what she does is-

Kira:  I love your dogs.

Kristina:  Yeah. Sadie, I got her from that house across the street. So, when her little boys are outside playing, she just stares because she wants to go play with her little boys. And she likes to stare out the window, and then she spoil run.

Kira:  Last question, last lightning round question, is double-dipping at a party ever acceptable?

Kristina:  No-no. It’s so gross. I mean, I don’t even like to double-dip around family.

Rob:  How many people are at this party? Who’s at the party? I want to know that.

Kira:  Oh, my God.

Kristina:  I know.

Kira:  I would totally double-dip, I mean, pre-COVID.

Kristina:  For me, I’m like, if you bite one side, and then you flip the chip over and you bite the other side maybe. Again, you can be strategic around it.

Rob:  Flipping the chip is perfectly respectable. Yep.

Kristina:  Yes. I agree.

Kira:  Okay, glad we covered that. So, Kristina, why don’t you share… thank you for making it to the lightning round, clearly, I need practice even pulling the questions, but can you just share what’s coming up next for you and what else you’re excited about before we wrap?

Kristina:  Yeah. So, what’s coming up next. I’ve got a small group coaching program that I have done before that I really want to pick back up called Launch Circle, where we’re launching all at the same time. And that’s a lot of fun because I love supporting people through launches, even if I’m not the one writing all of the copy and doing all of the work. And then just writing more stories, getting more into storytelling, getting more into screen writing, which has always been my thing. And, I don’t know, I mean, I didn’t really plan ahead because, why would you plan ahead after last year? This year, I’m looking forward to leaving the house, hugging people. That’s what I’ve got planned ahead.

Kira:  Just don’t hug Rob.

Kristina:  Business-wise-

Rob:  I can do a side hug. I’m okay.

Kristina:  So, okay, you got it. Business-wise, it’s, support my clients, talk about launching as much as I can so that people learn to love launches because they really are so transformational. And once you launch, you learn your voice, you find your voice, you find your confidence, and watching someone go through that experience is really, really a lot of fun. So, more launches, more empowering launches, and, I don’t know, keep writing, that’s what I do, just write, write, write.

Kira:  That’s it for our interview with Kristina Shands, but before we go, let’s recap a couple more things. So, you talked a lot about different personality tests in this conversation, is there any particular one, beyond the love languages we talked about earlier, is there any particular personality test that resonates with you, Rob?

Rob:  There’s not really. I mean, as I was thinking about this after we talked with Kristina, I know Myers-Briggs gets a lot of talk, and a lot of people talk about their Enneagram numbers, Sally Hogshead’s Fascinate profile, and even like the color, are you red or blue? I can’t remember what that one’s called. Or in Human Design, like we talked about. There’s all of these different ways to look at personality, and I know there’s a lot of science that pushes back against them and say, “Look, this stuff isn’t really real. It’s the Barnum effect where stuff stays really general. And of course, it applies to big audiences, and so, it feels personal,” that kind of stuff.

But I do think there’s some usefulness in trying to understand character traits or thought processes or the way that we act, especially when we’re thinking about the people that we’re working with, or the people that we’re trying to attract to a particular product, just because it’s another frame or another way of looking at the worldview stuff that we were talking about the last time we broke in here in the podcast.

Kira:  Yeah. I mean, I like tests like that, I like Myers-Briggs. For me, I don’t lean too heavily on it, but I can see where, if you can pull that into your process, and especially as a copywriter, and you can make that part of your process when you work with clients too, to help better connect to them and know how best they work and how you should interact with your clients, but also just how to best express who they are in the messaging, and especially if you’re working on their brand development, personality tests could really be useful. So, in some ways, I feel like I should probably consider which ones would be most helpful when I work with clients, even though I haven’t added that.

And then it does attract certain clients too who love to talk about or take those tests. It could be something that attracts them, but it is interesting. Even my eight-year-old, Harper, has just learned about the world of tests and these personality tests, and she’s already obsessed at age eight with figuring out what spirit animal she is and just wanting to test everybody. And so, there is this desire even at such a young age to identify and feel connected, and learn about yourself, and feel that connection to something that helps aluminate a different side of your personality. That just clearly doesn’t really disappear over time.

Rob:  Exactly. And, I mean, obviously, they do have their limits. It’s not an exact comparison, but I worked for a company a number of years ago, a couple decades ago, and the CEO got really hung up on this. It was kind of an IQ test, but not really, which was supposed to let us as employees know the jobs that we were best suited for. And so, they had everybody in the company take the test, and I remember there were a few people in my group, a couple of designers who tested, for whatever reason, they tested, I can’t remember what the exact numbers were, but the results came back that they were ideally suited to be security guards, or line workers in the lunchroom, or something ridiculous.

And it was really demoralizing for them to get that kind of feedback, and then to know that HR was talking about how this was kind of a baseline for who’s going to get promoted or who’s not. And so, I do think that there are some limits. The funny thing about that test though is the CEO took it and I never heard what his exact score was, but my understanding was that he also lower rated security guard level or whatever. And after that happened, the test went away company-wide. So, funny story, I suppose, but there are limits to this stuff. It’s fun to use, and if it gives you some additional information or some insight into the way that your client or your customer functions, then use it and be careful because they’re not always scientific.

Kira:  Yeah, that seems pretty messed up for a company culture to do that at all, of the things not to do in your company as a business owner. And yeah, I think the part that you mentioned is, you should be intentional about it. There should be a point, whether you’re doing it for yourself or for a client or for your company, there should be. Some of should be scientifically backed and there should be a point to doing that exercise, especially if you’re going to spread it across your company.

Rob:  Kristina also talked about rabbit holes and going down rabbit holes, and how she has to avoid, specifically, she was talking about avoiding the rabbit hole of Human Design because she could spend all of her time studying it, and learning about it, and whatever, and I just picked an idea in my head too, is that oftentimes, rabbit holes are really good when we’re doing research, when we’re learning, when we’re trying to figure stuff out that’s going to help us in the business, but it can become a way to feed the resistance and keep us from doing our work. And I love the fact that Kristina is able to identify that and say, “Actually, I am not going to do that because I’ve got to get some stuff done.”

And so, just being aware in our days, when are we chasing a rabbit down a hole for fun and for learning, that’s keeping us from doing the work? And when are we actually doing it in a way that’s going to support us? Just got me thinking about that. Something worth commenting on.

Kira:  I love going down rabbit holes. I think it’s just the key for me, at least, is to know when I’ve been down there too long and to pull myself out. And I usually know because I usually get depressed when I get to the bottom of the rabbit hole and I’ve been down there for too long, and I just start to feel like I’m not myself. And so, that’s when I know, “Okay, you’ve been down this rabbit hole for too long. You’ve got to get back into the real world and pull yourself out.” And it doesn’t mean you have to not think about whatever topic, for Kristina with Human Design, or for me with the odd topics I go into rabbit holes about, just to know you can still think about it, you can still work on it, you can still integrate it into your business or your life, but you just, when is it actually harming you, or harming your business, or harming something else by staying down there in that rabbit hole?

Rob:  Yeah. And then last thing that I wanted to mention is, Kristina talked about adding self-care as part of project management, which I can’t remember if we’ve mentioned this with anybody else in the past. We’ve definitely talked about self-care, but making it part of your project management, building in time for sending a client a gift certificate for a massage, or making sure that you’re taking time off on the weekends during a big project like a launch, I think is a really good idea, and is the kind of thing that can help us avoid the burnout that comes with those huge projects.

Kira:  I love that idea, I love that it’s part of Kristina’s process. And the energy management around launches is so important to her and to her clients, and I think that’s something that we can all do for ourselves and for our clients, and I know that’s something that you and I are trying to get better at as far as working with other copywriters, and whether it’s in a Think Tank or in other programs that we run, because a lot of times, we’re talking about goal setting, and it’s around pushing, pushing, pushing, and hitting all these goals, but oftentimes, what a lot of copywriters need the most is actually to pull back a little bit and to not push so hard.

The biggest goal could be booking a weekend off from work, or ending your day at a normal time. And it’s not always about just hitting those financial goals or other goals, but it’s about, yeah, just taking care of yourself, and I think that’s a big part of the conversation for us as business owners. I’m glad to see more copywriters that we work with moving into that direction too and understand the importance of it. So, I think I’m glad that Kristina highlights that.

Rob:  Yeah. And if you’re listening to this podcast, it might be worth asking yourself, “What can I do to take care of myself a little bit better? Is it something like getting out for a walk at lunchtime or getting up for a run? Is it taking time off and actually having weekends? Is it going and getting a massage or hiking in the forest, in the mountains, or whatever?” There are ways that we can do it that can be, that don’t necessarily have to push all of our work out of the way, but help reinvigorate us, reenergize us, and help us love the work that we do just a little bit more.

Kira:  Yeah. For me today, it’s a Friday, and this afternoon, I am checking myself into a hotel nearby just to get some alone time, which I never get, to actually think and read. And so, that is my self-care for this week and this month.

Rob:  Nice, I mean, to do that, that’d be good. I just went for a run this morning, that was my self-care, but I should have run to a hotel maybe.

Kira:  Run to a hotel and check in. Yes.

Rob:  So, we want to thank Kristina Shands for joining us to talk about her business, to talk about launching, and Human Design, and all of the things that she shared. If you want to connect with Kristina, check her out on Instagram, she’s also on Facebook, you can find her in all of The Copywriter Club groups, or visit her website, which is, that’s all one word,

Kira:  That’s the end of this episode of The Copywriter Club Podcast. Our intro music was composed by copywriter and songwriter, Addison Rice, the outro was composed by copywriter and songwriter, David Muntner. If you’ve enjoyed what you’ve heard, please visit Apple Podcasts to leave a review of the show. And don’t forget to visit to find out more about this business-changing, life-changing mastermind group. Thanks for listening, and we’ll see you next week.



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