Copywriter Sarah Grear is back for a second appearance on The Copywriter Club Podcast. Kira and Rob wanted to learn more about how she is shifting to offer more consulting in addition to copywriting, the tools she uses to land clients and how she structures her business so she gets paid even while on vacation. It this episode (#105 for those who are keeping score) we talked all about:
•  how she made six figures last year (and took four months off)
•  what Sarah’s accomplished since we last talked with her
•  what she does to help her clients have massively successful launches
•  the “gift” she gives her clients that closes the deal
•  what it takes to create a launch map and feel confident about sharing with her clients
•  the five phases of a launch plan
•  the ins and outs of a successful “launch debrief” and how she sells the next project
•  how she continues to get herself on stage (and what she teaches)
•  why she publicly celebrates every win today
•  the strategies Sarah uses to create more freedom in her personal life
•  how you can leverage your strengths to add consulting to your copy business
•  her “mindset” advice for copywriters who want to up-level to consultant

There’s lots to love in this episode. To hear it, click the play button below, or scroll down for a full transcript. You can also find it at iTunes, Stitcher and on your favorite podcast app.

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The people and stuff we mentioned on the show:

Full Transcript:

Rob:   What if you could hang out with seriously talented copywriters and other experts, ask them about their successes and failures, their work processes and their habits, then steal an idea or two to inspire your own work? That’s what Kira and I do every week at The Copywriter Club Podcast.

Kira:   You’re invited to join the Club for Episode 105 as we chat for a second time with freelance copywriter, Sarah Grier, about what it takes to grow a copywriting business past six figures, her recipe for launch success, why she books two projects at a time and spreads payments over six months, and how to add consulting to the services you offer your clients.

Hey, Sarah. Welcome back.

Rob:   Hey Sarah.

Sarah:  Hey, thanks for having me. It’s so fun. I can’t believe you guys have done 106 interviews. And you’re still standing.

Rob:   Barely. We’re actually … I think we’re both sitting right now.

Kira:   Sitting all day long. Which we need to work on. So why don’t you just give us a quick update. What have you been working on and what’s happened since last time you were on our show?

Rob:   And that was Episode 32, for anybody who wants to check that out, because it was a really good one. So, yeah, check that out.

Sarah:  I know. I became the take four months off in your business woman since then. But, yeah, I’ve done that. I took four months off last year, intermittently. If you listen to the old episode you can hear how. So, I’ll leave that as a tease.  Since then, in 2017, I worked on 52 projects for 19 clients, and still managed to take all that time off.

Kira:   What?

Rob:   Wow.

Sarah:   I know.

Rob:   It’s crazy.

Kira:   That is crazy.

Sarah:   When you have systems in place it makes a huge difference. But also I had this astronomical launch that stood out from all the other ones. We did seven figures in a single launch.

Sarah:    And it was the first time we had worked together. Basically, that changed the way that I was showing up with my clients, because I realized when my clients grow to that level or grow that quickly, they don’t always need a copywriter at that point because they usually hire an in-house production team. And so I started doing small percentage of consultant work alongside the copywriting work to really serve the people who needed more than just a copywriter.

So that’s what happened in the last year. It’s been fun and insane. And then I also, just to add to the mix, I also did close to 10 podcast interviews and did at least three live events that I can remember, where I was speaking onstage. So it’s been a fun year.

Rob:   You listen to that, I’m thinking, ‘How in the world did you take four months off?’ That’s crazy.

Sarah:   I had my formula for it and it just works when you have systems and a good team in place. So that’s really the short and long of it.

Rob:   Very cool. So can we talk about launching and what you’ve been doing to have so many successful launches? I’m blown away. A million dollar launch the first time you’re working with the client. That’s amazing. What are you doing to make your launches so valuable for your clients?

Sarah:    Well, I definitely helped them with all the components the first round. So from the top of the funnel all the way to the bottom, I was responsible for every asset, from video scripts to Facebook ads to emails to sales page. And I have, I guess, the part that’s hard to teach to other people is a gift for finding the right resource at the right time or the right framework at the right time based on who the client is.

I was able to put resources in front of them of other launches that … Basically we had an advantage that the client was a celebrity in their world. And so I looked at other celebrities out there who were having a lot of success with online programs. And I used that as the framework.

That’s the secret sauce to why the launch was so successful. But the skill in it is learning how to reverse engineer what someone else did and make it work for a new client. And that part is a little harder to teach because you can’t copy and swipe exactly what someone else does because you’re not going to get the same results because the assets are different in each company.

My ability to look at the assets of this particular company and say, ‘Okay, how are we going to make this work for you?’ Because they sell in a totally different way than most other people sell. So that was the nuance that made the difference.

Kira:   Can you talk about how you approach this type of astronomical launch or any launch project in relationship to the client? So you show up as a consultant from day one, with the first kickoff call, and you’re asking the right questions. So you’re talking about top of the funnel to bottom of the funnel. And not just, oh, yeah, I’m just going to write the sales page and then hand it to you and that’s it and disappear.

Sarah:    The thing that I do from the very beginning, when we have that initial consultation call, I give them 30 minutes to talk with me. And I always find that no matter what level a company is at, I’d say, 95% of the time, they have a marketing plan in their head and no one’s put it on paper.

The very first thing I do after I get off the call with them is I get as much information as I can about where they are in their launch plan. And then I actually map it out for them.I use a tool called Mind Map that works inside Google Drive. So inside Google Drive, I create this launch map and it basically shows them what they said to me. And when they see it on paper they’re like, ‘Oh, my gosh. No one else has done this for me.’

Now they can take what I’ve created for them and their Facebook ads manager already knows what to do. Their designer already knows what’s coming in the pipeline in terms of copy production. Anybody on the team, their project manager can work more easily and breathe more easily because they know what components are going to happen.

My launch maps are different for every client. They’re custom for every client. And as soon as I finish that call, I send it to them as a gift. And I’m like, ‘Hey, here’s a surprise launch map.’ And they immediately hire me after that.

But the reason I started doing the launch map is because I realized that if they don’t have it mapped out and have a plan, their results will suffer from the launch. So I did that for the client. We ended up doing $1.25 million with a single webinar style launch. It made all the difference for them because then their team knew what to do with it.

Rob:   That’s amazing. So we just recently did a training with Abbey Woodcock in the Facebook group about launches. And she shared this really elaborate spreadsheet of all the things that she spells out that have to be accomplished throughout a launch. How does that kind of a thing compare to the launch map that you’re creating? Does it spell out all of the little pieces and what goes out where? Is it basically just a different format of that, or is it something different from a process standpoint?

Sarah:    I actually watched that training because I was really interested to see how Abbey does it. I would call what she created and I hope … I think, to me, it looked like a glorified editorial calendar. So it showed you all the pieces.

I started out creating that for my client as well, thinking that it would be helpful. But it didn’t really work for me and our production process. And I found that the launch map worked better for me.

In terms of the way that she’s organizing these large scale launches, you need something. So I think what she’s doing is just as valid as creating a launch map. But the point is, if you don’t lay out all the components, then people get lost and you lose time and the lost won’t be as effective. As long as you’re doing something, then you’re golden. And her strength is probably in spreadsheets or … I don’t know who was sitting with her in the interview.

Rob:   That’s KC.

Kira:   That’s KC.

Sarah:   Are they related? Are they husband and wife?

Rob:   Husband and wife, yep.

Kira:   They’re partners.

Sarah:   Okay. I didn’t want to assume. Okay, so I feel like maybe he’s helped her with her systems. And so creating a spreadsheet was really smart. As long as there’s something that you’re doing to organize all the components and taking the lead on it, that’s the difference in, I think, being a copywriter versus doing something more. And, to me, I see it as a glorified project manager, is what you’re doing.

Kira:   Can you talk to us more about this launch map that you create through Mind Map? Because if something’s still new to me, I can’t say it feels that comfortable creating that type of launch map. And I’m sure newer copywriters don’t feel as comfortable. What is a great way we can approach it for the first time and feel comfortable presenting it to a client? Because it feels like you really need to feel confident if you’re sending this over to a client and saying, ‘Here, this is what you should be doing.’

Sarah:    During that first 30-minute call, I’m finding out all the components that they’re going to need from every asset. And so, basically, it’s taking that list of assets and putting it in the flowchart, so that at the front of the flowchart is usually some kind of seeding email letting their current list know that there’s some kind of free training coming.

So the first bubble would be dedicated to … On the actual launch map would be dedicated to three seeding emails saying something’s coming. And then the next bubble might be the Landing Page two, the webinar, let’s just say, if it was a single webinar launch or something.

And I guess my recommendation, if you’re trying this for the first time, is to do this for a very simple launch, not one that is a ten-day challenge that leads to a webinar that leads to a sales page. That’s just going to complicate things for you. But some of the nuance things that, if you’re a little more advanced, is you can add re-targeting ads that lead to the webinar bubbles, so that they know there’s going to be re-targeting ads to remind people to show up for the webinar or whatever the different strategies are.

I only recommend this to people if they’re comfortable with understanding strategy for each asset and the point of creating everything. Because if you’re not comfortable with that, I think you’ll probably tank, to be honest.

Rob:   So in addition to the Mind Map, then, what are the other processes that you have in place to make sure that every launch that you’re working on is going to, if not be a million-dollar success, at least it’s going to come off the way that it needs to so that your client’s happy.

Sarah:   I think the other thing I do during the launch that’s really important is I’m very much in control of the timeline. So I break down the project into stages. There’s usually around five stages in a project.

Once we have the launch map, it feels a little counter-intuitive, but I make my clients start with the sales page, even though that’s the last thing that’s going to be seen in the launch. The reason I start there is once you’re clear on the offer, you can write anything else inside of the launch, and it will come across the way that the client wants it to.

I start with the sales page and I give them three meetings, two revisions, to complete that with me. And I keep the timeline pretty hard and fast. And I propose all the dates to them before we get started. I do a setup three meetings to complete each stage, and I propose the dates the entire way through.

I’m flexible if they need to change the dates. But once we agree to them, I really ask that they keep to the schedule. So that makes a big difference in terms of a successful launch because you get the best creative when there’s a flow to it and everybody knows the timeline. And I also do…in Google Docs which I think makes a big difference.

Kira:   Can you share a little bit more about these five phases, what you’re doing in each phase?

Sarah:    I kick it off with the sales page. And then I do the webinar, if there’s a webinar registration page and/or a challenge registration page next, because the designer needs to get started on that. And then I’ll do the invitation emails to the free training.

Stage One will just be the sales page. Stage Two will be getting the webinar page completed. And then Stage Three will be the Facebook ads leading to the webinar, also the emails leading to the webinar. And then Stage Four, I feel like by then we’re ready to start on these sales page invitation emails. And Stage Five is usually a launch debrief. And this is an example of a simplified launch. You might have to add more stages based on how many components they have.

But Stage Five is the launch debrief. And this is really important. I don’t know if a lot of other copywriters are doing this or not. But I do ask my client to come to me with their final numbers, and we review it against industry standards to see how it performed. And we talk about ways to improve for the next launch because I want them to hire me again. So the launch debrief opens that conversation once they’re outside of the pressure of finishing their launch.

Kira:   Okay, this is so great, I’m like taking so many notes. Can you talk more about the launch debrief call because I know for me personally I could definitely improve it. Is this 30 days after launch? What does timing look like? How do you position it so that they feel comfortable showing up with their numbers? What are some questions you’re asking them during that session so that you can really sell them on the next project?

Sarah:    Inside my Google drive I have a set of templates for pretty much every stage of the project, including the launch debrief. I send them a document to fill out. So it’s kind of like a debrief intake form if you will, I don’t know if that’s the best way to say it. I mean, I’m asking them for the numbers, and they’re just happy that I gave them a framework to fill out already. So that kind of takes the awkwardness out of that. And then we try to do it 30 days after, but sometimes life happens or whatever, so I’m pretty flexible on doing the launch debrief.

Kira:   How are you selling the next project? Do you have some go-to questions you ask, how do you kind of lead in and get that next project?

Sarah:   Yeah, so I’m looking at their strategy, like okay this is what worked for your current launch, and sometimes, and this is the part we can get into in a little bit. Sometimes they’ve hired me for two campaigns already, but if they haven’t, the thing that we do is look at the numbers and part of what we’re talking about is what worked, what didn’t, and what can be done better next time. And so, that opens up the conversation like okay, next time where are you going to need support? What’s your priorities between now and your next big launch? Do you need a trip wire? Are you going to down sell something? Whatever it might be talking about what will work next time kind of opens up that conversation for me to say, okay, this is what I think your strategic priorities are between now and the next launch, and here’s where I can support you. And I just give them all the components in the stage and the launch map again.

Rob:   Sounds really well thought out. I heard a rumor that you may actually be selling two of these at a time, or that you ask your clients to commit to more than one launch when they buy a package from you. Is that true, and how do you structure that so that you’re getting paid when you want to get paid, and that you’re delivering the copy when they need the copy to be delivered.

Sarah:   I love it, yeah, I think Kira tipped you off to this.

Rob:   She’s usually right here most of my rumors…

Kira:   I’m the resource.

Sarah:   I love it. So basically, I was in an accountability peer mastermind with two women, and I was complaining about how people just hire me for one campaign and it’s not enough. Once I know their voice, they should hire me for two campaigns, and one of the women on the call was like done, sold, I want to hire you for two campaigns.

Kira:   What.

Sarah:   So that’s how it started.

Kira:   That’s awesome.

Sarah:   So what I learned is like once you’re in there you really know the back end of somebody’s voice and all of that. It really makes sense for them to hire you twice. But the reason this was a good product for her is that she hadn’t quite hit that six figure mark with her launch yet, so it made sense for her to pay me over six months instead of…most clients I’ll ask for like a pretty big launch I’ll ask for full payment up front, or give them an option to put a deposit and then pay the rest on a second payment. The deposit might be like 25% or something, and I feel like I should up it to 50% after listening to Abby. The point is for her it made a lot of sense to spread out her payments over six months so that we could have, and we did have a six-figure launch. And then she could continue to pay me in smaller increments. And I liked it because we did the launch in January, and then we did another one in June, and it was really fun for me to receive payments while I wasn’t working.

Rob:   Yeah, I’ll bet.

Kira:   Right.

Sarah:   The execution was like maybe 4-6 weeks on each launch, and then in between that I just kept getting money. I was like this feels good.

Kira:   So it’s a total of six monthly payments?

Sarah:   That’s how we worked it out for hers.

Kira:   Okay, I want to start doing that. How do you find these clients because I know, that’s probably what a lot of copywriters listening are asking when they’re like cool, I want to do all this, I want to have these six figure clients who have the potential to even reach that. Or seven figures. How do I get in front of them? What has worked well for you, even more recently so that you can continue to kind of go after the right clients?

Sarah:   What’s been the biggest client attraction for me, last year, was speaking on stages. The other speakers most of the time would be hiring me after they heard me talk, so that was really powerful. And then referrals was a close second to where my clients were coming from. But even, I wouldn’t overlook like being an accountability masterminds with people who are up and coming in their business. I didn’t have the intention of turning them into my customers, but that’s how it shook out, so it’s something to consider for your own business. And also, in the very beginning, majority of my referrals came from other copywriters overflow. So, I love that you guys have things like The Copywriter Think Tankbecause I’m positive people are passing referrals to each other there. Stuff like that is invaluable.

Rob:   That definitely happens, it’s one of the best reasons to create a network of copywriters to hang out with or talk with because copywriters do have extra work sometimes. Or they have leads coming that they can’t get to and they’d rather pass them on to somebody that they do know and trust than let their clients flounder. Sarah, so, the last time we talked, we talked a little bit about how you got yourself booked as a speaker for Rick Mulready, but I want to go deeper on this because it’s such a rich lead source for you. How do you continue to get yourself on stage, or in the front of the room so that you can show up as the expert and have people approaching you as their preferred writer? How do you keep doing that?

Sarah:   This is the like least strategic strategy in my business. A lot of the times it will be private clients who have been with me a lot of years, but I actually heard Tarzan speak about this in the group. It was probably a while ago, and I didn’t even realize I was doing it. I was like oh yeah, that’s why. So when my private clients show up I’m always on camera, we’re always doing live edits, I typically have lipstick on, I’ve got fresh flowers in the background. So what I realized is their noticing that I have a presence and I’m willing to be seen. That’s when they realize oh she’d be a great speaker for my event.

I also feel like I’m kind of rigging the system because copywriting is an essential piece to any online, I would say any online business. That set the stage for it. And then something I started doing last year, again not strategically was just celebrating the crap out of the fact that I was going to be on a stage. You can’t ignore it, at some point last year if you’re friends with me on Facebook, you saw it.

Kira:   That’s such a good point though, I feel like its’ so important to talk about these wins and what you’re doing as a marketing tool to really put out there. Like hey, I did this, and I can do this for you. I feel like I’m typically really poor at doing that, but it’s a great way to say I did it, and I can do it at your next workshop or retreat.

Sarah:   And I don’t even say like I can do this for you, I just celebrate it without any attachment to it. And honestly almost every time I celebrate speaking now, I get another invitation to speak.

Kira:   Wow, that’s incredible.

Rob:   Super smart.

Sarah:   My thing is though, okay, let’s say I had this seven-figure launch and then I never talked about it again, did it really happen? Pretty much no. Because if I never celebrate my results, nobody’s going to know. These teams I work on are very behind closed doors. If I don’t share it with people, people are not going to know. So you have to be willing to share your awesomeness.

Rob:   And when you get on stage, what are you talking about? I’m guessing that you know, you’ve got to be super smart up there and sharing things that are connecting with people, so yeah, what is your presentation, what are you usually talking about?

Sarah:   I typically talk about three pillars to copy that converts. It’s not anything super fancy, and the reason I do that is because the audience typically doesn’t have a good primer on how to write copy for themselves. The tag, or like I don’t know I guess the tagline that I use is ‘how to go from storytelling to story selling’. I feel a lot of people struggle with what story to tell to sell more of their service or product, so that’s kind of the entry point. And then I teach, oh one thing that I teach that I think one other copywriter teaches this, but before I discovered her I thought no one else as teaching it, was using different color personalities to attract more sales. So it’s a psychological thing. I learned it team building, and then I applied it to copy, so I thought nobody else knew it. And I’m not even sure the other person who teaches it, her names Val Geisler, I think you had her on the show. I’m not even sure if we’re teaching the same thing, I haven’t dug into what she’s teaching, but I think it’s a similar idea.

Kira:   Okay, well you need to teach that next time you come on the podcast.

Rob:   I think that that’s a really cool thing though because you’re basically saying, look, you don’t have to have something terribly original, or something new, because the audience that you’re in doesn’t know copywriting, and I think a lot of copywriters don’t present because they feel like well everybody knows this stuff, or I don’t have something that’s totally unique to share. And so I like your approach, it’s just get up there and share what you know, and you’re going to be the expert.

Sarah:    You really are, especially…I mean I kind of fell into being on stage with some very respected people in my industry and so I was automatically an expert before I even started teaching. And then, I mean the person who did the seven-figure launch with was in the audience when I taught at Ricks event.

Kira:   Oh wow, I didn’t know that.

Sarah:   Yeah, and it was kind of crazy because he did not approach me at the event at all, but as soon as I got home he e-mailed me and I didn’t even give my e-mail out. He like found me online and e-mailed me. That was that. But, apparently one of the things I taught, and I can share it with you guys, he changed one of his Facebook ads while I was speaking on stage, and that’s still his highest earning ad. He’s made two million dollars on one ad over the last two years.

Rob:   Wow.

Kira:   What, oh my goodness. I want to still dig into this celebrating your win concept. Clearly this is new to me, but I see people do it well, I see people do it really poorly to, like we all do, right? We’re like that gag me, that’s disgusting. You always do it really well, and because you said you’re not attached to it, it’s so positive and I feel like it draws people in rather than repels people. You probably just do it naturally because it’s who you are, but do you have any advice for copywriters who are really poor at celebrating their wins and could have the seven-figure launch and then move on to the next thing and never talk about it again.

Sarah:   I mean, there was levels to my ability to get out and celebrate. I think there was my old self who would not have wanted to celebrate saying that I had made seven figures for a client, or that I typically have a client get their first six figure launch with me, or anything like that. I had to become more open, so the first things I did, I practiced celebrating just with close friends, either in private groups where there was maybe five of us, and I felt comfortable sharing with them what just happened. I think that’s still relevant and I still do it because I can actually name drop with them and like their totally open to whatever I want to celebrate. And then I also practice celebrating gratitude with friends on Boxer, which is an amazing app, if you haven’t played with it, where you can leave voice memos for friends. I did a lot of behind closed doors celebrating, and then I slowly became more bold about celebrating out in the open on my Facebook page. I think for me, the more I celebrate, I feel like other people have permission to celebrate too, and so that’s what keeps me going at this point.

Kira:   Can you also talk about, you mentioned you’ve been on ten podcasts, I think you said ten, is that right?

Sarah:   Yeah, yeah.

Kira:   A lot of copywriters in some of our groups are pitching podcasts and just kind of unsure where to start in that process. Clearly you’ve done something right, so do you have any advice to copywriters who want to gain authority through podcast interviews?

Sarah:    I’ve never pitched anybody let’s just start there, which is crazy, but I think again, the first one happened and it’s the same as the speaking. I celebrated it and I let people know, and then they saw it on Facebook, and then they invited me by private messaging me. So, it’s sort of the same answer to speaking, you know pitching is good, I’m not going to say don’t go pitch at all, it’s good practice for you, but in the end once you get that first opportunity, never shut up about it after that.

Kira:   So we talked about taking more control over your life and having more freedom, that was a big part of the last conversation, but this is an ongoing struggle. So, I want to just hear a little bit more about how you think copywriters can take more control over their freedom. One of the ideas you mentioned is bundling these two projects together and distributing the payments over six months, so it takes off some pressure and brings in some reoccurring revenue. What other strategies have you tried or tactics that you have tried to create more freedom?

Sarah:   So I leverage a team and I could tell you, well first of all let me start with my team is seasonal. So I created a structure where I have a bigger team when I have more projects, and everybody gets a percentage of the projects, so you could call it a profit share. That’s part of the reason why it’s important that my clients pay me the majority of the money upfront because I need to pay my team upfront, or I like to anyways. And I’ll tell you who’s on my team when I have a lot of projects going at once. I have a VA for sure, and they handle the client onboarding and even handle communication with potential leads as well. And then I have a personal assistant who’s here with me at the house and I’m a little bit spoiled. I had a family member live with me for eight months and they were cooking and cleaning for me, so now my personal assistant, now that the family member left, I also ask them to cook and clean for me. No shame whatsoever. I have a junior copywriter and I have a project manager. So that’s kind of the larger version of my team.

And then the only thing I haven’t outsourced that I want to start experimenting with is outsourcing the sales call, so that’s the last piece I want to add. But that’s kind of how I leverage a team and I work a lot less is having these other people support me and I do have to give a shout out to The Copywriter Clubbecause I found a couple junior copyrights inside the Facebook group so it’s been amazing.

Rob:   That’s awesome. So one thing I want to ask you about, Sarah, is consulting because you don’t just do copyrighting, you do consulting and obviously you’re building out launch strategies and doing a lot more. If a copywriter wanted to add more consulting services into their business, what are the steps they should think about or go through to make that happen?

Sarah:   Yes so, I think we kind of started to open up this conversation earlier that basically if you’re going to go from copywriter to consultant, at least for a percentage of your business, then you really need to identify your strengths and your weaknesses. So, I kind of want to give an example of me versus Val Geisler versus Abby Woodcock. So Abby’s strengths are creating these amazing systems for the deliverables and that’s a form of project management. Val Geisler’s strength, I listened to her interview on your podcast, and it sounded like her strength was uploading the copy to the email platform among other things and that’s her project management strength. So I encourage people to look at their own strengths and figure out where they could be a better project manager and position that as consulting for the client. For me it’s the launch mapping and the stage waterfall system for deliverables that people love so much. So I don’t want to say you can just insert this one style of project management and it’s going to work for every person, you kind of have to look at your strengths and do what’s a natural fit for you. But that’s the best way to approach it I think.

Kira:   Alright let’s talk about your personal assistant, because I want a personal assistant. Don’t we all want a personal assistant? So what are they doing for you? What does that look like? How has that helped you?

Sarah:   Oh it’s been amazing. So her hours when she started out working for me, I think she was working close to 40 hours and that’s when I needed the most help, so it was just incredible to have her, I actually text her a list. She’s a millennial she loves texts. So I text her a list in the morning of all the things I need done around the house and then she just makes it happen while I’m on my calls and it’s been super helpful, and I’ve given her like recipes of things that I want to try, and she cooks as well and is really good at it. And then I’ve had her do some social media, posting to Facebook and Instagram for me. To be honest, I’m not active on Instagram, but I wanted to have a few posts up there, so I gave her content to repurpose and I gave her the images and she went ahead and uploaded it. And then, she also just does little tasks like helps me move recordings when I have a client call and I need to keep them organized in a folder, she does little tasks like that, and then also if I have files that need to be moved out of my emails, so I have sub folder for all my bills and the invoices I need to keep, she does little tasks like that.

Rob:   Awesome. So I want to ask about your experiments with video and what I think you’re calling SarahGTV. What have you been doing with that and how’s it been impacting your business?

Sarah:  That has been so much fun for me. So I realized that there is this gap of people who are on these high-end launch strategy teams and they’re creating these amazing things, but you never hear from the people on the team, you just hear from the person who’s the face of the business. So I started SarahGTV to start interviewing people who’ve I’ve been partnering with on teams and it’s been amazing to have them be in the foreground of what strategies are working right now, this year, and what’s the difference. I ask a lot of questions of what’s the difference between people who are having a lot of success with their launches and people who are not having as much success. I’ve gotten some incredible answers. And so I feel like it keeps me sharp in the same way that you guys use your podcast to stay sharp. I feel like SarahGTV keeps me sharp in launches, and I do go on and teach on my own as well sometimes so that’s kind of the premise behind the show. And honestly, doing these interviews of other people on strategy teams is a great way to stay in front of my referral pool. I don’t ask them directly for referrals, it just keeps me top of mind with them.

Kira:   Okay I want to know about moving from copywriter to creative director because that’s originally when we talked about getting you back on the show this is the change that you’ve made, but there’s a lot of mindset shifts that you need to make in order to move form copywriter to creative director and more of like copy chief too. So do you have any advice, anything that’s worked well for you as you have transformed over the last however many months or years that could help copywriters with the mindset stuff?

Sarah:   Yeah so for me, going from copywriter to creative director which I use interchangeably with consultant, so it’s pretty much the same thing, what I realized is that, I could tell people like I did on this interview about the execution of it. But actually going out and trying it is the thing that stops most people. So, I feel like if you want to start doing this, start with a client you’re really comfortable with already and just be really honest with them like, ‘This is something I’m trying and can I test it out with you.’ So I feel like that might take the pressure off of you. But yeah I feel like jumping into the consultant or creative direction world, the other thing to do is to stay really up to date on the latest launch strategies and really understand what’s working for companies. But more importantly why it’s working for one company and not necessarily for another because once you start to understand that, that makes all the difference in the results that you’re going to get for your client.

Rob:   Sarah, I know we’re running out of time and we’ve got so many more questions, we might have to have you back for a third episode at some point. But so much good stuff here, so many more things we could talk about, but if people want to connect with you online, where could they find you?

Sarah:    I feel like I want to keep going and going to and if people want to keep the conversation going, and they’re really thinking about going from copywriter to consultant, then I actually recommend they go to SarahGrear.com/copy and I will put up a way for us to stay connected and talk about how they can do that in their own business.

Kira:   Sounds great and thank you for opening up and sharing really insider business information about your processes that we can all benefit from. It’s been really helpful. So thank you Sarah.

Rob:   Thanks Sarah.

Sarah:   Thank you this is great.

Rob:   You’ve been listening to The Copywriter Club Podcast with Kira Hug and Rob Marsh. Music for the show is a clip from Gravity by Whitest Boy Alive, available at iTunes. If you like what you heard, you can help us spread the word by subscribing at iTunes and by leaving a review. For show notes, a full transcript, and links to our Facebook community visit the copywriterclub.co

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